No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

[quantumfaith]

The idea of being able to lose your salvation or doubting your original salvation experience must be a great burden for anyone. I have read Hebrews 4:4-6, and just cannot see how those who believe in loss of salvation come to that conclusion.

The questions that cross my mind are, what does one have to do to lose their salvation, how does one regain it, and how does one hope that they do not die during a period of not being saved? God is not the author of confusion. It should be clear and settled in each Christian's mind. I suppose from time to time it is good to examine ones self, but a constant state of worry is not what the Lord intended. Really, I sort of feel sorry for these folks.

SN, it is my feeling that "concerns" about confidence in salvation are usually ironed out with "maturity". Maturity in chronological terms and in living as believer for longer periods of time. Those who experience "doubt" are often younger in age and/or "younger in their faith". I realize that this does not universally apply, but it is something that I have observed being chronologically over 50 and living life as a believer for more than 35 years. It is also my experience that those who "doubt" often lose sight of the meaning of GRACE. Often, it is initiated by experiencing judgement of others and imposition of performance based standards.

 

[Robert Snow]

No he doesn't. Neither do you. Luther knew it. So did Spurgeon and John Gill, and each embraced it. It is, after all the Gospel.

No. Calvinism presents the Gospel in an scriptural manner. It most certainly isn't the Gospel.

 

[canadyjd]

...You can deny that Calvinism causes doubt all you want to, and I can easily prove it does. I just showed an article from a Calvinist writer who says nearly every single person who doubts is a Calvinist, or a form of Calvinist theology..

Wow! One person has universal insight into all Christian lives on the planet and has declared that "nearly every single person who doubts is a Calvinist". And that is how you "easily prove" your point. Really?

What if.... those people who questioned their salvation were being worked upon by Holy Spirit.... because they had grieved God with their ungodly living and rebellion against Him? What if God were disciplining those He loves in order to heal their relationship with Him?

 

[preacher4truth]

Wow! One person has universal insight into all Christian lives on the planet and has declared that "nearly every single person who doubts is a Calvinist". And that is how you "easily prove" your point. Really?

What if.... those people who questioned their salvation were being worked upon by Holy Spirit.... because they had grieved God with their ungodly living and rebellion against Him? What if God were disciplining those He loves in order to heal their relationship with Him?

A solemn amen brother.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell:
That's a circularity though........I think if you read your post closely, you might see that.

Hi Heir of Salvation, not sure why you would think that reading my post again might somehow change what I have already said, which I stand by.

Nothing circular about it, it is simply a matter of fact.

Unless you want to suggest that non-elect have eternal life, that is.

Arms (I say "Arminians" for brevities sake) don't deny that "assurance" is POSSIBLE.

That's a good thing right? So were done here? lol

No, I don't think so. So assurance is possible...it's just knowing if your elect that is impossible, is that it? You cancel out your own defense, my friend, whether you realize it or not.

Indeed, we believe it is.

But it is rather selective, right?

But it isn't sufficient when the question is this......and I repeat for any Calivinist who doesn't understand this yet:

HOW do you know?

Is there some reason you feel my answer does not address the thread title?

No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

Perhaps if you quote my response and address that I might be able to see why it is you feel I have offered a "circularity argument."

Alternatively.....

WHAT EVIDENCE! do you have that you are properly one of those to WHOM this is addressed in the FIRST PLACE?

This is another question altogether, and one usually only offered by atheists that question the existence of God, much less another's salvation.

However, in your case it seems that questioning the word of God is in view. Here it is again:


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Can you tell me how John is in error by making this statement?

Here is a little more circular reasoning for you to consider HOS: John says quite clearly that those that believe on the name of the Son of God may know that they have eternal life. Whether one might want to argue if I personally know myself or not is one thing, but John is making a definite statement that those who genuinely do believe may know.

But lets go on to the rest of your argument:

These verses are WRITTEN TO the "elect".......so how then, do you know that God had YOU PERSONALLY in mind when he inspired the Apostle to write it?

But you see, this is not only a different argument with a different question in view, but it is also a questioning of my personal salvation...and you do not even know me.

Your questioning of my salvation and my personal knowledge of the fact that I am a born again child of God does not change the fact that those that are saved, that believe on the name of Jesus Christ are without doubt among the elect.

Will you deny that? They can know that they have eternal life. If they know that they have eternal life they know they are among the elect.

Going on to your questioning me as to how I know, it is quite simple really:



Romans 8:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Will you question Paul as well?

I know that "assurance" is possible, but my assurance doesn't stem from the same source as a Calvinist's might.

Sorry, but I do not get into the calvs and arms dispute (is this a medical forum?), lol.

You want to discuss biblical doctrine, great. You want to discuss the doctrines of men, I can't help you.

I would remind you that one of the ways we know we are born of God can be seen here:



1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


I hate to say it, HOS, but I am just not feeling the love, lol.

If you understand the question as posed...

You have yet to show me how a direct answer to the thread shows me misunderstanding the question.

The answer is yes...the elect can know.

and answer it,

Not only did I answer it, but I am now answering your questions. Pretty good track record so far, eh?

I believe that Calvinist "assurance" (which is probablistic at best) stems from an appeal to their good works.

How is this relevant to the thread title?

To my response?

It isn't......(again)... THAT assurance is possible it's HOW is it possible.

We must be reading two different threads.

If you can show me that John is in error and we cannot know that we have eternal life and therefore assurance of being among the elect, I will gladly take it under advisement.

Until then...

God bless.

 

[saturneptune]

They don't believe you "lose" your salvation. They believe you can forfeit it.

So are you saying they cannot regain it after forfeiting it? If that is the case, what type of sin or action causes to forfeit?

 

[preacher4truth]

Hi Heir of Salvation, not sure why you would think that reading my post again might somehow change what I have already said, which I stand by.

Nothing circular about it, it is simply a matter of fact.

Unless you want to suggest that non-elect have eternal life, that is.



That's a good thing right? So were done here? lol

No, I don't think so. So assurance is possible...it's just knowing if your elect that is impossible, is that it? You cancel out your own defense, my friend, whether you realize it or not.



But it is rather selective, right?



Is there some reason you feel my answer does not address the thread title?



Perhaps if you quote my response and address that I might be able to see why it is you feel I have offered a "circularity argument."



This is another question altogether, and one usually only offered by atheists that question the existence of God, much less another's salvation.

However, in your case it seems that questioning the word of God is in view. Here it is again:


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Can you tell me how John is in error by making this statement?

Here is a little more circular reasoning for you to consider HOS: John says quite clearly that those that believe on the name of the Son of God may know that they have eternal life. Whether one might want to argue if I personally know myself or not is one thing, but John is making a definite statement that those who genuinely do believe may know.

But lets go on to the rest of your argument:



But you see, this is not only a different argument with a different question in view, but it is also a questioning of my personal salvation...and you do not even know me.

Your questioning of my salvation and my personal knowledge of the fact that I am a born again child of God does not change the fact that those that are saved, that believe on the name of Jesus Christ are without doubt among the elect.

Will you deny that? They can know that they have eternal life. If they know that they have eternal life they know they are among the elect.

Going on to your questioning me as to how I know, it is quite simple really:



Romans 8:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Will you question Paul as well?



Sorry, but I do not get into the calvs and arms dispute (is this a medical forum?), lol.

You want to discuss biblical doctrine, great. You want to discuss the doctrines of men, I can't help you.

I would remind you that one of the ways we know we are born of God can be seen here:



1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


I hate to say it, HOS, but I am just not feeling the love, lol.



You have yet to show me how a direct answer to the thread shows me misunderstanding the question.

The answer is yes...the elect can know.



Not only did I answer it, but I am now answering your questions. Pretty good track record so far, eh?



How is this relevant to the thread title?

To my response?




We must be reading two different threads.

If you can show me that John is in error and we cannot know that we have eternal life and therefore assurance of being among the elect, I will gladly take it under advisement.

Until then...

God bless.

A solid Spirit led answer indeed!

- Blessings

 

[canadyjd]

A solemn amen brother.

What advice do we give to someone under conviction of Holy Spirit? Do we tell that person to look back at the words they spoke when they were 12 years old at vacation bible school? Or do we point them to scripture and urge them to work out their salvation in fear and trembling? Do we urge them to read the bible (such advice has been mocked here) to see what marks the life of the faithful in Christ? Or do we say, "hey, don't worry, be happy"?

Do we offer assurance based on those words spoken years earlier, or do we offer assurance based on evidence of a life transformed by indwelling Holy Spirit that is consistently taught in scripture?

 

[preacher4truth]

What advice do we give to someone under conviction of Holy Spirit? Do we tell that person to look back at the words they spoke when they were 12 years old at vacation bible school? Or do we point them to scripture and urge them to work out their salvation in fear and trembling? Do we urge them to read the bible (such advice has been mocked here) to see what marks the life of the faithful in Christ? Or do we say, "hey, don't worry, be happy"?

Do we offer assurance based on those words spoken years earlier, or do we offer assurance based on evidence of a life transformed by indwelling Holy Spirit that is consistently taught in scripture?

We tell them to look not at certain still pictures of their life, but a snapshot of the whole of their life.

 

[Winman]

Wow! One person has universal insight into all Christian lives on the planet and has declared that "nearly every single person who doubts is a Calvinist". And that is how you "easily prove" your point. Really?

What if.... those people who questioned their salvation were being worked upon by Holy Spirit.... because they had grieved God with their ungodly living and rebellion against Him? What if God were disciplining those He loves in order to heal their relationship with Him?

Oh, I am sure that sin has a great deal to do with their doubting.

But underneath all doubt is the question of whether one is elect or not?????

Perhaps I am not explaining this well, but non-Cal or Arminianism provides a foundation for faith that Calvinism cannot possibly provide.

If the non-Cal/Arminian believes they can absolutely know they are elect. Why? Because they know Jesus died for them personally. All they have to do is believe this fact to be elect. It is founded on a truth.

The Calvinist cannot know for a certainty that Jesus died for them, so they do not have a foundation for faith. You can HOPE you are one of the elect, but you cannot KNOW you are elect.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it so. If Jesus did not die for you, if God did not choose you, if you are not one of the elect, it doesn't matter if you believe you are elect. Your faith is a false faith that is not founded on truth or reality.

Calvinists convince themselves that if they believe they are elect that it makes it so. That is pure nonsense. You are not the one who decides if you are elect, God is. You can believe your whole life you are elect, but if God did not choose you, your faith is false.

Calvinists instinctively know this, and this is why so many worry if they are truly elect. They MUST know this to have real assurance. But it is impossible to know, because Jesus did not necessarily die for YOU.

The non-Cal does not have that problem. We believe Jesus died for all persons, so all persons can be elect if they choose to believe. We also believe everyone has the ability to believe if they want to. We do not believe any person is disabled from being able to believe.

 

[Amy.G]

So are you saying they cannot regain it after forfeiting it? If that is the case, what type of sin or action causes to forfeit?

I cannot get a definitive answer on that. I've been asking and so have others down in the Other denom section.

They claim that they can make a free will choice to rebel against God and forfeit their salvation just as Satan did and also Adam and Eve.

 

[saturneptune]

I cannot get a definitive answer on that. I've been asking and so have others down in the Other denom section.

They claim that they can make a free will choice to rebel against God and forfeit their salvation just as Satan did and also Adam and Eve.

Thanks for the info.

 

[canadyjd]

Oh, I am sure that sin has a great deal to do with their doubting....But underneath all doubt is the question of whether one is elect or not?????

No, I don't think so. If Holy Spirit is convicting someone of sin in their lives, I'm sure He can bring to remembrance what the trouble is.

Perhaps I am not explaining this well, but non-Cal or Arminianism provides a foundation for faith that Calvinism cannot possibly provide....If the non-Cal/Arminian believes they can absolutely know they are elect. Why? Because they know Jesus died for them personally. All they have to do is believe this fact to be elect. It is founded on a truth.

So, their assurance of salvation comes from mentally acknowledging that Christ died for them personally? Where do the passages of scripture that link assurance of salvation with specific marks of a transformed life fit into your foundation for faith?

Just because you believe something doesn't make it so......Calvinists convince themselves that if they believe they are elect that it makes it so.

How is that different from saying "just because you believe Jesus died for you personally" doesn't make it so? Or "Non-cals convince themselves if they only give mental assent to the notion that Jesus died for them personally that it makes it so?

If Jesus did not die for you, if God did not choose you, if you are not one of the elect, it doesn't matter if you believe you are elect.

And it doesn't matter if you believe Jesus died for you personally either if your faith is not genuine.

Your faith is a false faith that is not founded on truth or reality.

Ditto

The non-Cal does not have that problem. We believe Jesus died for all persons, so all persons can be elect if they choose to believe. We also believe everyone has the ability to believe if they want to. We do not believe any person is disabled from being able to believe.

Do you believe every believer will have a transformed life that will be marked by certain attributes?

 

[preacher4truth]

I cannot get a definitive answer on that. I've been asking and so have others down in the Other denom section.

They claim that they can make a free will choice to rebel against God and forfeit their salvation just as Satan did and also Adam and Eve.

Yet Jesus puts an end to all of this. John 6:39. In this we rest.

 

[Winman]

No, I don't think so. If Holy Spirit is convicting someone of sin in their lives, I'm sure He can bring to remembrance what the trouble is.

Being convicted of sin is no proof you are elect or saved, Judas was convicted after he betrayed Jesus and killed himself.

So, their assurance of salvation comes from mentally acknowledging that Christ died for them personally? Where do the passages of scripture that link assurance of salvation with specific marks of a transformed life fit into your foundation for faith?

Well, all faith involves mental assent. The scripture describes man believing with his heart, but the scriptures also say, As a man THINKETH in his heart (Pro 23:7). A person knows when they believe something or not, or at least they should.

How is that different from saying "just because you believe Jesus died for you personally" doesn't make it so? Or "Non-cals convince themselves if they only give mental assent to the notion that Jesus died for them personally that it makes it so?

I know when I believe something, and when I do not, don't you? I believe God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days, I do not believe in evolution.

You Calvinists like to make everything a big mystery, including faith.

And it doesn't matter if you believe Jesus died for you personally either.

Only if Limited Atonement is true. But if Jesus died for all men, it certainly matters whether you believe it or not. You MUST believe God's word to be saved.

Ditto

Well, if Limited Atonement is true, then my faith has just as much probability of being false as yours. But I do not believe in Limited Atonement, therefore I can have assurance that if I believe on Jesus I will be saved for a certainty. You will insist you can know, but if you believe in Limited Atonement (and you do), then you cannot know for a certainty. You KNOW this, and this is exactly why many Calvinists are filled with doubt.

Do you believe every believer will have a transformed life that will be marked by certain attributes?

No, we have evidence from the scriptures themselves that many Christians are not mature. Paul said he had to speak to some as "babes" in Christ.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The Corinthians were very immature spiritually and had all sorts of problems. They were getting drunk in church, fighting with each other, a man was living with his father's wife, all sorts of problems. Yet they were all saved.

So, you can ACT like you are a Christian, and it does not prove you are elect or saved, but a truly elect and saved Christian can act like an unsaved person.

Paul said he KNEW whom he had believed, and was persuaded he was able to keep that which he had committed (the true definition of saving faith) unto him.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

This is assurance right here. Of course, Paul knew for a certainty that Jesus died for him personally (1 Cor 15:3).

If Limited Atonement is true, how did Paul know for a certainty that Jesus died for his sins?

Hmmm....

 

[beameup]

The presence of the Holy Spirit confirms whether you are saved or not.
If this presence is uncertain, then either (1) you are not saved, or
(2) you have supressed ("grieved") the Holy Spirit - living a self-centered life.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[psalms109:31]

We are all going to have doubts and unbelief, but we remain in Christ even with this.

Why, because Jesus cannot disown Himself. We are told to trust in Him even over our own self.

We as a believer should know we are saved, but those who let trials and tribulation choke out the seed that was planted, they are not saved. They don't care about Osas. The only one's who do is their loved ones and they will believe any thing they can to secure them.

In truth they might be the only one's who can save them by simple encouragement. It is easier to just say it must be God's will.


James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


It sometimes take time in someone else's tragedy don't give up on them, Jesus did not give up on us. He used so many people in our life to reach us. They did not turn their back on you, but Him.

Only an unbeliever don't know they are saved, and it is them that don't care.

Is Jesus going to finish what He started in you?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Strangely I only doubted my salvation before I learned the Doctrines of Grace.

:thumbsup:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Obviously you did not read the article from the Calvinist writer I quoted;



So, much ado about nothing? Obviously some people take the question of where they will spend eternity very seriously.

But, if you really don't believe this stuff...

You're not listening... my point is that Calvinists are not the only ones with doubts. You admitted as much earlier. So trying to paint Calvinism as the cause of doubt is therefore null and void.

If you want to go by personal experience (for whatever that's worth), in over thirty years of ministry I have known far more to have doubts about their salvation who did not believe in the DoG that those who did believe in the DoG. Literally dozens who did not have assurance who did not believe in DoG compared to maybe a dozen who did believe in DoG and struggled with assurance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yet Jesus puts an end to all of this. John 6:39. In this we rest.

1 Corinthians 2:14


14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.