...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except...

[skypair]

You can speak of somone being "filled" with Holy Spirit, because that terminology is consistant with scripture. You spoke of measuring "how much" Holy Spirit is needed to be saved, as if God, Holy Spirit were a thing to be measured. Again, that is inappropriate.

Apparently it is inappropriate according to YOUR rules. OK, I can refrain from using those terms. We'll just fast-forward to your last comments.

We know from NT passages that Holy Spirit will not leave a truly born again believer.

We must decide if their is a major distinction (other than temporary/permenant) between the Hebrew "upon" and the Greek "indwelling" before we could determine if OT saints were "indwelt" as NT believers are.

You're "in full denial mode" here, jd! You['re not looking for the truth -- you're trying to "weasel out" of the debate with your honor intact.

Truly, you don't know what regeneration, indwelling, filling, Holy Spirit -- you're not really certain what any of them mean! And so you are putting up these little rules and equivocations so that we never get around to dealing with even the OP.

So let's go through them: "filling" -- when the mind, emotions, and will are all focussed on Christ/God. Thus, if only the mind but not the emotions were so focussed, that would be less than "full" and the will would likely not respond.

"Indwelling" -- The Spirit of Christ, the Word, is engrafted into our soul. We have fully committed to the wisdom of God such that it has some control of our lives. You will find a similar "control" by demon spirits that are in possession of the lost. You will find that they can be cast out but if they are not, they affix to that person's soul even in death such that the AC will be indwelt by the demon spirit the indwelt Judas and Jesus spoke of both AC and Judas "son of perdition" and "prince of this world." Likewise, the Holy Spirit accompanies your soul to heaven forever.

"regeneration" -- born again because the Spirit indwells and quickens new life! You've gone terribly awry to think that regeneration merely means "influence" as you appear to state. If you are lost, the Holy Spirit is merely drawing you from outside -- the truth/wisdom of God doesn't belong to you yet because you have not yet accepted it.

"Holy Spirit" -- Wisdom of God, Prov 8. He is "spirit," after all. Just as a demon spirit is merely a evil influence from outside us, the Holy Spirit is God's "influence" until we receive Christ as Savior. That affirmation of the gospel is the "incorruptible seed" planted in our soul that "germinates" into life eternal.

I believe you would benefit from a study of the spirit world not only from the perspective of salvation but from the angle of spiritual growth. You seem to think that verities are planted in you without your consent or consideration thereof.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Apparently it is inappropriate according to YOUR rules.... you don't know what regeneration, indwelling, filling, Holy Spirit -- you're not really certain what any of them mean! And so you are putting up these little rules and equivocations so that we never get around to dealing with even the OP.

The only "rules" that I have stated are that we should stick with what scripture actually says. You are demanding that we go beyond scripture into "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology", the very thing you seem to accuse "calvies" of doing, but are incapable to seeing that you are doing that very thing.

So let's go through them: "filling" -- when the mind, emotions, and will are all focussed on Christ/God. Thus, if only the mind but not the emotions were so focussed, that would be less than "full" and the will would likely not respond.

You give no scripture to support your position. That is "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology."

"Indwelling" -- The Spirit of Christ, the Word, is engrafted into our soul. We have fully committed to the wisdom of God such that it has some control of our lives. You will find a similar "control" by demon spirits that are in possession of the lost. You will find that they can be cast out but if they are not, they affix to that person's soul even in death such that the AC will be indwelt by the demon spirit the indwelt Judas and Jesus spoke of both AC and Judas "son of perdition" and "prince of this world." Likewise, the Holy Spirit accompanies your soul to heaven forever.

Not a single verse of scripture to support your "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology."

BTW, I believe your comparison of the indwelling Holy Spirit to demon possession borders on blasphemy.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

The OP:

I Cor 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus is accursed'; and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." (emphasis mine)

What is the Apostle Paul's point in making this statement? He isn't saying people can't mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" (literally), is he? Jesus said that many would call Him "Lord" in the day of judgement and He would say "depart from Me...I never knew you". Paul isn't talking about saying certain words, he is referring to being saved, isn't he?

Isn't Paul saying that all who are truly saved, are saved by the power of Holy Spirit? You can't come to Christ, without the power of Holy Spirit upon you.

The Context:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--This verse introduces the next three chapters which discuss the spiritual gifts of the believers, which were all operable at that time and up until the end of the first century, at which time they ceased. Paul does not want them to be ignorant of these spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
--He gives them a warning of their pagan past. They used to worship idols through demonic spirits (other spirits than the Holy Spirit). Not every spirit, therefore, is of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
"No man speaking,,," How would they be speaking in the context of spiritual gifts? No doubt it would be speaking by the gift of tongues which they were able to do in paganism, some of which are able to do ecstatically like the Charismatic movement does today, and some of which had the actual gift of languages. It was evident then that some of the speaking in tongues was of demonic origin, or of "another spirit."

"No man speaking by the the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed."
If the context is tongues, then Biblical tongues would have an interpreter as indicated in chapter 14, and that interpretation would always glorify God. It would never call Jesus accursed, or curse Christ in any way.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Those speaking in Biblical tongues, by the Holy Spirit would always testify to the deity of Christ.

A demonic spirit would do the opposite. He would curse the name of Jesus, and deny the deity of Christ. That very thing was happening in the Corinthian church. They were allowing their pagan past and their carnal nature to get the best of them instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. BTW, in our present society, every person (Charismatic) who opens themselves up to speaking in tongues opens their mind up to demonic activity--perhaps not possession, but the oppression of the devil and his demons. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

 

[Revmitchell]

I just don't see how God's sovereignty can remain in tact if.....

1. God is omnipotent?

2. God's will is for someone to be saved

3. God, Holy Spirit's work, is necessary for someone to come to salvation

4. God, Holy Spirit's work, is ineffective in bringing the person to salvation

5. God, therefore, fails to accomplish what He wills concerning salvation

God, having failed to accomplish what He wills, is not sovereign or omnipotent in the life of that person.

How can it be seen another way?

peace to youraying:

The problem you run into is that you now need to believe it is God's will that some men shall not be saved. This implies that God created some men for the purpose of damning them. That he does not at any time extend an offer of grace to some. This is a rather poor view of God's will. And cannot be supported by scripture.

It can also be God's will that man respond to the conviction of the Holy Ghost rather than impose himself. Can God not also do this? Or is He limited?

 

[Rippon]

The problem you run into is that you now need to believe it is God's will that some men shall not be saved. This implies that God created some men for the purpose of damning them. That he does not at any time extend an offer of grace to some. This is a rather poor view of God's will. And cannot be supported by scripture.

It can also be God's will that man respond to the conviction of the Holy Ghost rather than impose himself. Can God not also do this? Or is He limited?

Even the Arminian construction of theology is not off-the hook in explaining the same thing.In Arminianism God knows who will not be saved.God created them anyway.Is He to be blambed?

Of course I do not believe in the Arminian construction -- I just wanted to let you folks know that pointer fingers aimed at our direction will have the rest of the digits aimed right back at you.

God does not extend an offer of grace to some.It's undeniable except to the hardheaded that multiplied millions thru the centuries have never heard the Gospel of Christ.He hides the truth from those He wishes.

God has to intervene in the lives of His as yet unregenerate elect ones.He gives them faith and repentance.He does not force Himself on His sheep as some here wrongly say the Calvinists believe.He melts hearts of stone and turns them to Himself.

This business of God doesn't want to impose Himself sounds like that notion of the Holy Spirit is a gentleman nonsense.The Lord gets His own -- when He wants,where He wants etc. He spiritually arrests those of His choosing.Without His intervention -- no one would be saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Even the Arminian construction of theology is not off-the hook in explaining the same thing.In Arminianism God knows who will not be saved.God created them anyway.Is He to be blambed?

Of course I do not believe in the Arminian construction -- I just wanted to let you folks know that pointer fingers aimed at our direction will have the rest of the digits aimed right back at you.

God does not extend an offer of grace to some.It's undeniable except to the hardheaded that multiplied millions thru the centuries have never heard the Gospel of Christ.He hides the truth from those He wishes.

God has to intervene in the lives of His as yet unregenerate elect ones.He gives them faith and repentance.He does not force Himself on His sheep as some here wrongly say the Calvinists believe.He melts hearts of stone and turns them to Himself.

This business of God doesn't want to impose Himself sounds like that notion of the Holy Spirit is a gentleman nonsense.The Lord gets His own -- when He wants,where He wants etc. He spiritually arrests those of His choosing.Without His intervention -- no one would be saved.

I am sorry but it is hard to get past the "Arminian" nonsense.

 

[Rippon]

I am sorry but it is hard to get past the "Arminian" nonsense.

Please elaborate.

 

[Revmitchell]

Please elaborate.

I am not concerned with any Arminiansim

 

[Rippon]

I am not concerned with any Arminiansim

In post # 44 of yours you responded to canadyjd with some concerns of yours.Those concerns of yours are typically Arminian.

 

[Revmitchell]

In post # 44 of yours you responded to canadyjd with some concerns of yours.Those concerns of yours are typically Arminian.

No they are not Arminian. "Calvinists" really need to do their homework on that. I in no way believe any one who is saved can lose their salvation. And neither will I be labeled with ungodly labels such as Calvinist or Arminian. 1 Cor 1:11-13

 

[skypair]

Sorry, jd...

... but I know you wouldn't accept the scriptural attributions anyway so why bother -- you just don't get it.

DHK has done a pretty good job of explaining 1Cor 12 to you. I know that isn't going to move you either. Apparently you are just not ready for the truth.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

No they are not Arminian. "Calvinists" really need to do their homework on that. I in no way believe any one who is saved can lose their salvation. And neither will I be labeled with ungodly labels such as Calvinist or Arminian. 1 Cor 1:11-13

Labels are handy-dandy sometimes!

The OSAS belief doesn't negate one from being Arminian in their theology.James Arminius, (his pen name),was up in the air on that doctrine of the perseverance/preservation of the saints --so were his followers -- the Remonstrants at the Synod of Dort.

Many Arminians who claim they aren't say the same thing that you do.They are the misinformed ones.

 

[Revmitchell]

Labels are handy-dandy sometimes!

The OSAS belief doesn't negate one from being Arminian in their theology.James Arminius, (his pen name),was up in the air on that doctrine of the perseverance/preservation of the saints --so were his followers -- the Remonstrants at the Synod of Dort.

Many Arminians who claim they aren't say the same thing that you do.They are the misinformed ones.

As I have shown they are contrary to scripture when they place men under the authority of other mens doctrine. I do not fall under the doctrine of any man. To bad "Calvinsits" do.

 

[Rippon]

As I have shown they are contrary to scripture when they place men under the authority of other mens doctrine. I do not fall under the doctrine of any man. To bad "Calvinsits" do.

I do not follow the doctrine of a man only the God/Man Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are confused ( even if it has been repeatedly pointed out to you in the past probably) -- Calvinists do not follow John Calvin. Many Calvinists have read little to none of his works.If that is the case how do they follow him exactly?For those Calvinists who have read portions of his works like myself -- that does not mean I follow him.I don't run and check on what he said so I won't contradict him.

What he has written is very profitable -- you're missing out if you haven't read anything of him.Arminius thought his stuff was wonderful too.

And while I'm at it -- Arminians do not follow Jacob Arminius either.

Hopefully I have clarified some things for you.

[BTW, your man B.H.Carroll probably valued Calvin's writings very much.]

 

[Revmitchell]

I do not follow the doctrine of a man only the God/Man Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are confused ( even if it has been repeatedly pointed out to you in the past probably) -- Calvinists do not follow John Calvin. Many Calvinists have read little to none of his works.If that is the case how do they follow him exactly?For those Calvinists who have read portions of his works like myself -- that does not mean I follow him.I don't run and check on what he said so I won't contradict him.

What he has written is very profitable -- you're missing out if you haven't read anything of him.Arminius thought his stuff was wonderful too.

And while I'm at it -- Arminians do not follow Jacob Arminius either.

Hopefully I have clarified some things for you.

[BTW, your man B.H.Carroll probably valued Calvin's writings very much.]

What you have shown is the grand arrogance of many of the reformed persuasion. Which is a result of thinking God has chosen you over other men.

 

[Rippon]

I do not follow the doctrine of a man only the God/Man Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are confused ( even if it has been repeatedly pointed out to you in the past probably) -- Calvinists do not follow John Calvin. Many Calvinists have read little to none of his works.If that is the case how do they follow him exactly?For those Calvinists who have read portions of his works like myself -- that does not mean I follow him.I don't run and check on what he said so I won't contradict him.

What he has written is very profitable -- you're missing out if you haven't read anything of him.Arminius thought his stuff was wonderful too.

And while I'm at it -- Arminians do not follow Jacob Arminius either.

Hopefully I have clarified some things for you.

[BTW, your man B.H.Carroll probably valued Calvin's writings very much.]

Where in this post of mine is the so-called grand arrogance which many of the Reformed persuasion are supposed to have?

 

[Rippon]

Which is a result of thinking God has chosen you over other men.

I've had to say the following about 20 times so far in my history on the BB.Every believer is elect.Even Arminians who decry biblical election yet are really regenerate are among the elect of God. Calvinists alone are not the only company whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

The flip-side to election is reprobation.The Lord chooses some and passes by the others.Election is choosing.The Lord does not choose all.He has mercy on some and hardens others.

 

[canadyjd]

The OP:
The Context:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--This verse introduces the next three chapters which discuss the spiritual gifts of the believers, which were all operable at that time and up until the end of the first century, at which time they ceased. Paul does not want them to be ignorant of these spiritual gifts.

The question for Paul is not that they are ignorant of spiritual gifts, but they are ignorant of the way in which Holy Spirit gives the gifts and the reason why Holy Spirit gives the gifts.

v.4 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit"
v.5 "And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord"
v.6 "There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons"

Paul is stressing that the manifestation of spiritual gifts come to all true believers. Since God gives the gifts, no one can boast they have a gift that someone else doesn't. Since God gives the gifts, those with certain gifts that others don't have can't boast that they are Christians and others are not because they have "the" gift...whatever it is.

The purpose of the giving of spiritual gifts is for the common good. v.7.

The rest of Chapter 12 stresses the unity they have as Christians and the way God works to build the fellowship.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.--He gives them a warning of their pagan past. They used to worship idols through demonic spirits (other spirits than the Holy Spirit). Not every spirit, therefore, is of God.

Agreed.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

"No man speaking,,," How would they be speaking in the context of spiritual gifts? No doubt it would be speaking by the gift of tongues which they were able to do in paganism, some of which are able to do ecstatically like the Charismatic movement does today, and some of which had the actual gift of languages. It was evident then that some of the speaking in tongues was of demonic origin, or of "another spirit."

"No man speaking by the the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed."
If the context is tongues, then Biblical tongues would have an interpreter as indicated in chapter 14, and that interpretation would always glorify God. It would never call Jesus accursed, or curse Christ in any way.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Those speaking in Biblical tongues, by the Holy Spirit would always testify to the deity of Christ.

A demonic spirit would do the opposite. He would curse the name of Jesus, and deny the deity of Christ.....

We have the accounts of the demoniac in Mark 5 and Luke 8 who acknowledged the diety of Jesus by addressing Him as the "Son of the Most High God". We have the account of the demon possessed woman of Acts 16:16, who stated of Paul and his companions, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." We know Paul proclaimed Jesus and Him crucified. The demon was in agreement.

Paul is not talking about mouthing the words, "Jesus is Lord". If that were all he were saying, then he would not be speaking the truth, since it is obvious that people, even demon possessed people, can say the words, "Jesus is Lord".

There is no doubt that Paul addresses the use of tongues in these chapters. His purpose in chapter 12, however, is to stress the unity they have as believers.

Paul is being very basic with them, easy to understand. They would have understood that someone saying "Jesus is accursed" was not saved. That is easy to understand, easy to discern. No need for special, Spiritual discernment with that statement.

That is constrasted with the truth that all salvation is a work of Holy Spirit. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit". Very basic concept. Your common salvation is because of God, Holy Spirit. They needed spiritual discernment to understand their common salvation.

What seems consistent with the context is that Paul lays a foundation in v1-3 for the spiritual unity he will describe in rest of chapter 12 by reminding them that every person's salvation came about by Holy Spirit.

FTR, I don't believe spiritual gifts have ceased. They are necessary for the function of the Church.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

The problem you run into is that you now need to believe it is God's will that some men shall not be saved. This implies that God created some men for the purpose of damning them. That he does not at any time extend an offer of grace to some. This is a rather poor view of God's will. And cannot be supported by scripture.

Romans 9:14-24

It can also be God's will that man respond to the conviction of the Holy Ghost rather than impose himself. Can God not also do this? Or is He limited?

I find it hard to imagine that anyone could view the intervention by God into the life of a sinner to save Him to be imposition.

Isn't God imposing Himself on a person's life when they come under the conviction of Holy Spirit? Isn't God violating their "free-will" by causing them to feel conviction?

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Romans 9:14-24

This verse in no way says, suggests, or implies that God never extends grace to some men. It can also apply to those that have rejected his conviction. And I would point you to verses 31 & 32 in that chapter. God did not suggest that he created men for the sole purpose of dying but it was because they placed their faith in the wrong thing.

Romans 1:17-25

I find it hard to imagine that anyone could view the intervention by God into the life of a sinner to save Him to be imposition.

Isn't God imposing Himself on a person's life when they come under the conviction of Holy Spirit? Isn't God violating their "free-will" by causing them to feel conviction?

peace to youraying:

Do not focus on the word "impose" it was not my intent to use it as a negative. It just describes His action. God doesn't force conviction on anyone. It is simply part of our nature, that He created, when we are shown our sin. Looking at Romans 1:20 we cannot be without excuse and be created for destruction with out any offer of grace ever.