...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except...

[canadyjd]

Do not focus on the word "impose" it was not my intent to use it as a negative. It just describes His action. God doesn't force conviction on anyone. It is simply part of our nature, that He created, when we are shown our sin. Looking at Romans 1:20 we cannot be without excuse and be created for destruction with out any offer of grace ever.

The common grace given to all men is found in the revelation of God through His creation. That common grace was not salvific, in that it did not produce believers in God. Rather, it produced pagan worship of the created world, instead of the Creator.

The special grace that comes to the elect of God is the work of Holy Spirit, without which no one could be saved.

Whatever else you might find in our nature, you will never find the ability to come to God without the work of Holy Spirit. That is why, "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit."

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

The common grace given to all men is found in the revelation of God through His creation. That common grace was not salvific, in that it did not produce believers in God. Rather, it produced pagan worship of the created world, instead of the Creator.

I realize you are talking about Rom 1:19-21, but where do you come by this bolded assertion? How was Job saved? or Elihu?

Truth is, Rom 1 states the "everlasting gospel" as the revelation of the Godhead that man either "knows, gives glory to, and thanks" OR rejects and turns to paganism. There are both options available and those who reject are, thereby, "without excuse."

BTW, that is the OT, pre-law means of salvation. You will notice often back then that the Spirit could speak through "common" grace without "regenerating" anyone.

skypair

 

[DHK]

The question for Paul is not that they are ignorant of spiritual gifts, but they are ignorant of the way in which Holy Spirit gives the gifts and the reason why Holy Spirit gives the gifts.

Paul spends three chapters on this subject. One of his purposes was to correct the abuse of the spiritual gifts, that is the way that they were being used. He also explains to them there usefulness, their purpose, etc. Three chapters! That is more time on this one subject than he spends on the resurrection in chapter 15, that "jeweled chapter" of the Bible, the crux of our very faith.

v.4 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit"
v.5 "And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord"
v.6 "There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons"

Paul is stressing that the manifestation of spiritual gifts come to all true believers. Since God gives the gifts, no one can boast they have a gift that someone else doesn't. Since God gives the gifts, those with certain gifts that others don't have can't boast that they are Christians and others are not because they have "the" gift...whatever it is.

The purpose of the giving of spiritual gifts is for the common good. v.7.

The rest of Chapter 12 stresses the unity they have as Christians and the way God works to build the fellowship.

The rest of chapter 12 (from verse 4 onward) is a different paragraph, and a different subject. In those introductory verses Paul deals with a specific problem before he gets into the meat of the issue of spiritual gifts which he then begins with listing them. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with that. It is separate. He takes time to correct a specific problem first.

We have the accounts of the demoniac in Mark 5 and Luke 8 who acknowledged the diety of Jesus by addressing Him as the "Son of the Most High God". We have the account of the demon possessed woman of Acts 16:16, who stated of Paul and his companions, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." We know Paul proclaimed Jesus and Him crucified. The demon was in agreement.

This kind of logic is absurd.
If all the demons praised God, what a wonderful world it would be. There would be no need to "resist the devil," to "flee from him." "he is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour whom resist steadfast in the faith." Why, if Satan is simply praising God along with his demons, let us lay down our spiritual armament (Eph.6:11-18), and rejoice, for there is no more battle against Satan. He is not going to bother us again.
Your theology there, quite frankly is a joke.
The Corinthians were in a spiritual battle!

Paul is not talking about mouthing the words, "Jesus is Lord". If that were all he were saying, then he would not be speaking the truth, since it is obvious that people, even demon possessed people, can say the words, "Jesus is Lord".

Absolutely right. Any unsaved person can mouth those words. I can even get a Muslim to do that even though he is so anti-Christ. These people were cursing Christ under the power of another spirit. They were being controlled by another spirit, and their speech (in a tongue, another language) was being recognized by some who knew that language--whether by supernatural gift or by knowledge. It was an abuse of the gift of languages and it was a carry-over from their pagan past which Paul refers to in verse two. There are many pagan religions (including the Mormons) who speak in tongues.

There is no doubt that Paul addresses the use of tongues in these chapters. His purpose in chapter 12, however, is to stress the unity they have as believers.

That may be so in the rest of the chapter, but it is not the purpose here in verses two and three.

Paul is being very basic with them, easy to understand. They would have understood that someone saying "Jesus is accursed" was not saved. That is easy to understand, easy to discern. No need for special, Spiritual discernment with that statement.

It is a contrast. Some were saying Jesus is accursed by another spirit.
Some were praising Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit just like it happened in Acts chapter two.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
--It was praise; not cursing.

That is constrasted with the truth that all salvation is a work of Holy Spirit. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit". Very basic concept. Your common salvation is because of God, Holy Spirit. They needed spiritual discernment to understand their common salvation.

The purpose of tongues was never to lead a person to Christ. It was not to show the way of salvation. It had nothing to do with salvation.
This very basic concept was that some were speaking by another spirit that Jesus was accursed--it was by a demonic spirit. Why else would they say that?
Some were saying that Jesus is Lord. It was by the Holy Spirit, under the control of the Holy Spirit through speaking in tongues as they did in Acts 2.

What seems consistent with the context is that Paul lays a foundation in v1-3 for the spiritual unity he will describe in rest of chapter 12 by reminding them that every person's salvation came about by Holy Spirit.

Paul deals with a specific problem before going into the matter of spiritual tongues. He must get this out of the way first.

FTR, I don't believe spiritual gifts have ceased. They are necessary for the function of the Church.

Then I challenge you to give objective evidence where the sign gifts of miracles, healing, or languages is being exercised today.
Even the Charismatics have to learn foreign languages before going to the mission field. Don't you find that odd. Tongues, just like your "mother tongue," were actual languages--other languages (tongues), but real nonetheless.

 

[canadyjd]

The rest of chapter 12 (from verse 4 onward) is a different paragraph, and a different subject. In those introductory verses Paul deals with a specific problem before he gets into the meat of the issue of spiritual gifts which he then begins with listing them. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with that. It is separate. He takes time to correct a specific problem first.

Paul deals with the abuse of tongues elsewhere. It seems disjointed to have Paul introduce a topic (specifically using the phrases "Jesus is accursed" and "Jesus is Lord" while speaking in "tongues"), only to abandon that topic immediately for a more lengthy discussion on another.

To me, it makes much better sense (in context) to view the first 4 verses as laying a foundation for the argument found in the rest of chapter 12 which is Christian unity. Paul tells them all became Christians the same way, by the Spirit. Therefore, no one should think they are "better" because of the particular gift they have.

This kind of logic is absurd.
If all the demons praised God, what a wonderful world it would be. There would be no need to "resist the devil," to "flee from him." "he is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour whom resist steadfast in the faith." Why, if Satan is simply praising God along with his demons, let us lay down our spiritual armament (Eph.6:11-18), and rejoice, for there is no more battle against Satan. He is not going to bother us again.
Your theology there, quite frankly is a joke. The Corinthians were in a spiritual battle!

You made the argument that demons would never say the words, "Jesus is Lord". I pointed to scripture that demonstrates you are wrong. That is not absurd. That is not a joke.

The purpose of tongues was never to lead a person to Christ. It was not to show the way of salvation. It had nothing to do with salvation.

I believe if you look at the sermon at Pentecost you will find that you are wrong. The purpose of the tongues was that everyone could hear the proclaimation of the gospel in their native language. That was a call to repentance. That was a call to come to Christ in faith.

Then I challenge you to give objective evidence where the sign gifts of miracles, healing, or languages is being exercised today.

I believe you had stated that Spiritual gifts had ceased, not specifically referring to the "sign-gifts" as having ceased.

I should have realized you meant the "sign-gifts" and not all Spiritual gifts.

That said, I see no evidence in scripture that any Spiritual gift will "cease" prior to the consumation of the Kingdom.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe what is practiced in charismatic circles today in anyway resembles the true "sign-gifts" as practiced in the 1st century.

Holy Spirit can give Spiritual gifts as He finds appropriate.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

Paul deals with the abuse of tongues elsewhere. It seems disjointed to have Paul introduce a topic (specifically using the phrases "Jesus is accursed" and "Jesus is Lord" while speaking in "tongues"), only to abandon that topic immediately for a more lengthy discussion on another.

Yes, Paul deals with tongues in all three chapters: 12, 13, and all throughout 14. There is not one of these chapters that he does not mention the gift of tongues. As he speaks of tongues at the end of chapter 12, I see no reason not to believe that he may be referring to tongues at the beginning of the chapter, especially as he relates this to their pagan background in verse two. You keep referring to Christian unity. How is Paul referring to unity by referring to paganism? That just doesn't fit does it? In fact their pagan background is the exact opposite of Christian unity. Paganism opposes Christian unity. That is the background that they came out of it. Some of them reverted back to it, and the result was speak in pagan tongues that cursed Christ.

To me, it makes much better sense (in context) to view the first 4 verses as laying a foundation for the argument found in the rest of chapter 12 which is Christian unity.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
--And this verse contributes to Christian unity HOW??

Paul tells them all became Christians the same way, by the Spirit. Therefore, no one should think they are "better" because of the particular gift they have.

Yes he does, but that is not the subject of the fist three verses, and has nothing to do with the first three verses.

You made the argument that demons would never say the words, "Jesus is Lord". I pointed to scripture that demonstrates you are wrong. That is not absurd. That is not a joke.

Your premise is absurd.
Satan does not glorify God. That is not a scriptural premise.
He did so when Christ walked the face of the earth to attest to the deity of Christ. For Christ had power over the demons and Satan. They were compelled to. Likewise in the presence of Paul they were compelled to do the same. But what happened when others tried to confront demons:

Acts 19:15-16 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
--Evil spirits do not praise God. That position is ludicrous. It just doesn't happen today. They are evil vile spirits that like nothing more than to spit in the face of God with the most vile, wicked language possible. Satan's deceived purpose which he has never deviated from is to unseat God. Barring that he will do everything possible to keep others from serving him, and if possible will get them to curse him. He succeeded in the church at Corinth.

I believe if you look at the sermon at Pentecost you will find that you are wrong. The purpose of the tongues was that everyone could hear the proclaimation of the gospel in their native language. That was a call to repentance. That was a call to come to Christ in faith.

Chapter and verse please.
I quoted you Scripture showing you that was not the case. They spoke forth "the wonderful works of God," not repentance, not the gospel. You must be able to demonstrate what you claim through Scripture.
The purpose of tongues was to be a sign for the unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21,22)
Three times tongues are mentioned in the Book of Acts. All three times there were Jews present. It was a sign for the Jews. That was its primary purpose. There were some other minor purposes, but that is the primary purpose of tongues. By the end of the first century, tongues had ceased, for the Jews did not listen or take heed to that sign and judgment from God fell upon the Jewish nation when the Roman general, Titus came and destroyed the Temple, and Israel was once again scattered as a nation.

I believe you had stated that Spiritual gifts had ceased, not specifically referring to the "sign-gifts" as having ceased.

I should have realized you meant the "sign-gifts" and not all Spiritual gifts.

That said, I see no evidence in scripture that any Spiritual gift will "cease" prior to the consumation of the Kingdom.

Then give evidence of any of the sign being in existence today. Try healing. Compare it to Acts 5:16 where Peter healed All who came to him, no one excluded.

Holy Spirit can give Spiritual gifts as He finds appropriate.

He can, but he doesn't. He doesn't speak through burning bushes either.
He doesn't wrestle with man like he did with Jacob either.
He doesn't walk in fiery furnaces with man like he did with the three Hebrew children either.
Study Hebrews 1:1,2. He speaks to us through his son, who is revealed to us through his Word--not through spiritual gifts.

 

[canadyjd]

You keep referring to Christian unity. How is Paul referring to unity by referring to paganism? That just doesn't fit does it? In fact their pagan background is the exact opposite of Christian unity. Paganism opposes Christian unity. That is the background that they came out of it. Some of them reverted back to it, and the result was speak in pagan tongues that cursed Christ.

You have made my point without realizing it.

Their paganism was the "opposite of Christian unity". Paul is contrasting the disunity of their previous life with the unity that should be found in their Christian life. Their paganism not only led to disunity, but led them to curse Jesus.

Their new life wrought by the Spirit leads to unity. But, they were dividing themselves based on which gifts they had. The thing they needed to understand was that all Christians become Christians because of the work of Holy Spirit. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit."

Paul follows this foundational statement with a long discourse on the unity wrought by the Spirit.

Evil spirits do not praise God. That position is ludicrous.

I didn't say evil spirits "praised" God. That position is an invention of yours.

You stated that a demon would "never" say "Jesus is Lord". I gave you scripture where demons acknowledged the Lordship of Jesus.

I quoted you Scripture showing you that was not the case. They spoke forth "the wonderful works of God," not repentance, not the gospel. You must be able to demonstrate what you claim through Scripture.

Jesus commanded them to be His witnesses. The Apostles were led by the Spirit to speak in known languages. They were speaking of Jesus, as led by the Spirit. Peter, immediately, gives a sermon which illustrates what was being said. You can believe they weren't preaching Jesus and Him crucified in you want. I believe the passage is clear. The great works of God was a reference to what Jesus had done.

Three times tongues are mentioned in the Book of Acts. All three times there were Jews present.

Image that. The early church (at Jerusalem) and every Apostle was Jewish. Luke follows Paul, a Jew, and records the history of the early church where all the main characters are Jewish.

It was a sign for the Jews.

Paul says tongues were a sign for unbelievers, not just unbelieving Jews.

Study Hebrews 1:1,2. He speaks to us through his son, who is revealed to us through his Word--not through spiritual gifts.

We are not talking about new revelation. We are talking about Holy Spirit enabling believers to do the will of God with whatever gift He desires.

peace to youraying: