No one is righteous = No one can believe???

[Winman]

No, your issue is that you think you were pretty good, and earned election by your works.

It's hard for you to accept that you are a sinner, totally unrighteous.

To you? You were just a little bit off, needed a little help. You helped God, and He saw your works, and then elected you.

Same false teaching. Different thread.

Yep JUDGED by his works. I grasp it fully. You tie it to election, saying it is NOT unconditional (election), but conditional, i.e. based on what you do, you get elected. It's what you teach and believe. That's salvation by works. That's what you have and embrace.

But scripture shows you a liar. Titus 3:5, Eph. 2:8-9.

I do not believe man is saved by works, you intentionally misrepresent me.

But I do believe unregenerate man can do good.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of this whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

If your view is correct, there would be no "whether" in verse 14. According to you and several other Calvinists here, unregenerate man can do no good, even when he obeys God's commandments. In your view, it is just as evil to tell the truth as it is to lie which is absurd. The scriptures nowhere support that unregenerate men are unable to do some good.

I have tried to explain that when the scriptures say no man doeth good, it is speaking of 100% righteousness, it is not saying 100% of what man does is evil as some falsely teach.

If telling the truth is sin, then God's commands are nonsensical.

Even Calvinists must admit unrengenerate man can tell the truth, but must call it evil to make their error in interpretation work. Ridiculous.

 

[preacher4truth]

I do not believe man is saved by works, you intentionally misrepresent me.

But I do believe unregenerate man can do good.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of this whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

If your view is correct, there would be no "whether" in verse 14. According to you and several other Calvinists here, unregenerate man can do no good, even when he obeys God's commandments. In your view, it is just as evil to tell the truth as it is to lie which is absurd. The scriptures nowhere support that unregenerate men are unable to do some good.

I have tried to explain that when the scriptures say no man doeth good, it is speaking of 100% righteousness, it is not saying 100% of what man does is evil as some falsely teach.

If telling the truth is sin, then God's commands are nonsensical.

Even Calvinists must admit unrengenerate man can tell the truth, but must call it evil to make their error in interpretation work. Ridiculous.

You believe election is conditional. That God chooses us based on judging our works. You've said it. And thus, since you worked, God saw, then He chose you accordingly.

Thus, by works He elected you. You've claimed it.

Stop with your nonsense and trying to cover it up.

 

[Winman]

You believe election is conditional. That God chooses us based on judging our works. You've said it. And thus, since you worked, God saw, then He chose you accordingly.

Thus, by works He elected you. You've claimed it.

Stop with your nonsense and trying to cover it up.

I will show you, but I doubt you will see.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Why were these seven thousand persons elect? Was it because they did not bow down to the image of Baal? No. It was because they continued to trust in God when all others fell away. Not bowing down to Baal was simply evidence of their faith. True faith will produce works, but it is the faith that God sees.

Now, you will say that God regenerated these men and this is why they did not bow down to Baal, but the text does not support that. In fact, you cannot produce a single verse in all of scripture that says God regenerates a person so they are able to believe. Not one. Imagine that, a theology based on something never mentioned in scripture even once. Wow.

The scriptures do not support Total Inability, man can do some good things. Man can tell the truth which is obeying God's word. You must twist scripture (and reality) and call this evil to support your error of Total Depravity.

It IS sin to trust in one's righteous works, but this does not negate that telling the truth is right, and man is capable of performing right.

 

[preacher4truth]

I will show you, but I doubt you will see.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Why were these seven thousand persons elect? Was it because they did not bow down to the image of Baal? No. It was because they continued to trust in God when all others fell away. Not bowing down to Baal was simply evidence of their faith. True faith will produce works, but it is the faith that God sees.

Now, you will say that God regenerated these men and this is why they did not bow down to Baal, but the text does not support that. In fact, you cannot produce a single verse in all of scripture that says God regenerates a person so they are able to believe. Not one. Imagine that, a theology based on something never mentioned in scripture even once. Wow.

The scriptures do not support Total Inability, man can do some good things. Man can tell the truth which is obeying God's word. You must twist scripture (and reality) and call this evil to support your error of Total Depravity.

It IS sin to trust in one's righteous works, but this does not negate that telling the truth is right, and man is capable of performing right.

Of course I won't see it. I'm led by the Spirit into truth. I don't see your false teaching.

Not only is your doctrine not Baptistic. It's not Biblical.

You further reaffirm your doctrine of works salvation.

You, according to yourself, were elected "because" you earned it by something you did.

That is plainly false teaching.

Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9, and Paul, counting all his prior works, all his "righteousness" as a Pharisee of Pharisees, dung, also condemn you. They did not merit a thing, and all show you as a liar.

 

[MB]

Hello MB. (In the tone of Seinfelds "hello newman") :laugh:

More drivel from you. "partiucularity?" Uh. LOL! Even more drivel.

I never claimed God chose me because He preferred me. YOU said that. Yet another lie from you. Are you and Winnie related? You both often lie.

God chose me unconditionally, as he did Abram, David, and all others who will enjoy eternity with Him. I know you don't like God being Sovereign like that. You'd rather He be limited to your own design of Him. So you can be in control of what He ought do.

Fatalist? Nope. More drivel. More lies.

Sorry you're the one lying If you are unconditionaly elected then God would have elected you at random that means you are a fatalist because anything that lends it self to radomness depends on the luck of the draw that means your a fatalist by your own admission.
And why not it's what you do best you have let fate decide.

You're losing. Again. So, you resort to lies and twisting Scriptures and stere-typing, accusations, name-calling implications.

You're showing that wonderful love you have for your brother aren't you?.

You're a theological shipwreck. And full of lies. Try actually saying what I actually have said. :love2:

I'm just glad I don't have to live up to your expectations. Besides being shiped wrecked theologically isn't as bad as being shipped wrecked spiritually. Maybe it's all that hatefullness you have pent up inside of you. Remember He who hates his brother is guilty of murder.
MB

 

[preacher4truth]

Sorry you're the one lying If you are unconditionaly elected then God would have elected you at random that means you are a fatalist because anything that lends it self to radomness depends on the luck of the draw that means your a fatalist by your own admission.
And why not it's what you do best you have let fate decide.

You're showing that wonderful love you have for your brother aren't you?.

I'm just glad I don't have to live up to your expectations. Besides being shiped wrecked theologically isn't as bad as being shipped wrecked spiritually. Maybe it's all that hatefullness you have pent up inside of you. Remember He who hates his brother is guilty of murder.
MB

I'm unconditionally elected by the One who expressed unconditional love. Yep. You betcha! That leaves you as the liar. You believe you were conditionally (something you did) elected. That's semi-pelagianism. If not full. Or, in other words, salvation by works. Or, false teaching.

Abram, David, Paul, and all genuine believers are elected the same way. Unconditionally. That makes you angry. Nothing in me merited it. But you? You believe you merited/earned election. Nothing but a total lie.

Even more drivel from a well known liar.

It's nice you've lied about "what I've said." It's great commentary on who you are, and a commentary on you and your testimony.

Love for brothers? I have that. :love2:

Not only can you not live up to my expectations, you can't live up to Gods.

 

[Winman]

Of course I won't see it. I'm led by the Spirit into truth. I don't see your false teaching.

Not only is your doctrine not Baptistic. It's not Biblical.

You further reaffirm your doctrine of works salvation.

You, according to yourself, were elected "because" you earned it by something you did.

That is plainly false teaching.

Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9, and Paul, counting all his prior works, all his "righteousness" as a Pharisee of Pharisees, dung, also condemn you. They did not merit a thing, and all show you as a liar.

You are trying to divert and change the subject, I am not saying man can earn salvation.

I am saying Total Inability is error and unscriptural, the scriptures show man has the ABILITY to do good. You know that is what I am saying, but keep trying to divert the subject.

Calvinism says man has no ability to perform spiritual good, but man can obey God's commands when he wants to, and the law is spiritual. No man keeps the whole law at all times, but man has the ability to obey God's commands, such as telling the truth when he chooses to do so. Man also has the ability to believe God's word if he chooses to do so.

Tell me, when an unregenerate man tells the truth, is that sin?

Please answer that question.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are trying to divert and change the subject, I am not saying man can earn salvation.

I am saying Total Inability is error and unscriptural, the scriptures show man has the ABILITY to do good. You know that is what I am saying, but keep trying to divert the subject.

Calvinism says man has no ability to perform spiritual good, but man can obey God's commands when he wants to, and the law is spiritual. No man keeps the whole law at all times, but man has the ability to obey God's commands, such as telling the truth when he chooses to do so. Man also has the ability to believe God's word if he chooses to do so.

Tell me, when an unregenerate man tells the truth, is that sin?

Please answer that question.

You say total inability is not Scriptural. In other words, you are able, and that God judged your works, and thereby elected you.

End of story.

You're a false teacher.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

You say total inability is not Scriptural. In other words, you are able, and that God judged your works, and thereby elected you.

End of story.

You're a false teacher.

You continue to divert from the issue.

Why can't you answer my simple question?

Tell me, if an unregenerate man tells the truth, is that a sin?

 

[webdog]

Wisest advice received here on the bb..."don't feed the trolls"

...and how to use the ignore function.

 

[jbh28]

Sorry you're the one lying If you are unconditionaly elected then God would have elected you at random that means you are a fatalist because anything that lends it self to radomness depends on the luck of the draw that means your a fatalist by your own admission.
And why not it's what you do best you have let fate decide.

That's not the case. We don't believe that God chooses at random. To say this is to misrepresent your opponent.

Of course I won't see it. I'm led by the Spirit into truth. I don't see your false teaching.

Not only is your doctrine not Baptistic. It's not Biblical.

You further reaffirm your doctrine of works salvation.

I believe in unconditional election and disagree with Winman over this, but Winman doesn't believe in Salvation by works. To say such is to misrepresent him.

You, according to yourself, were elected "because" you earned it by something you did.

Winman believes that you are elected because you believe, not works.

That is plainly false teaching.

Well, I would be careful here. We don't want to call our friends in Christ "false teachers" over the doctrine of election. The doctrine of Election is a very difficult doctrine and we shouldn't make a huge issue over it as long as we are doing our best to line our doctrine with the Bible.

Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9, and Paul, counting all his prior works, all his "righteousness" as a Pharisee of Pharisees, dung, also condemn you. They did not merit a thing, and all show you as a liar.

Again, not very Christlike. I don't believe Winman is a liar here.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's not the case. We don't believe that God chooses at random. To say this is to misrepresent your opponent.

I believe in unconditional election and disagree with Winman over this, but Winman doesn't believe in Salvation by works. To say such is to misrepresent him.
Winman believes that you are elected because you believe, not works.
Well, I would be careful here. We don't want to call our friends in Christ "false teachers" over the doctrine of election. The doctrine of Election is a very difficult doctrine and we shouldn't make a huge issue over it as long as we are doing our best to line our doctrine with the Bible.


Again, not very Christlike. I don't believe Winman is a liar here.

Read Luke 11. That's Christ-like.

So am I against Winmans false teaching.

One more time. Winman says, against unconditional election (grace) that it is not unconditional, but, that God judges man according to his works in election, and, that it is in fact conditional upon mans works, because God judges mans works, that man does do good, and thus He judges man on this and elects him accordingly.

This is what he has said.

Case closed.

 

[jbh28]

Read Luke 11. That's Christ-like.

So am I against Winmans false teaching.

One more time. Winman says, against unconditional election (grace) that it is not unconditional, but, that God judges man according to his works in election, and, that it is in fact conditional upon mans works, because God judges mans works, that man does do good, and thus He judges man on this and elects him accordingly.

This is what he has said.

Case closed.

Again, Winman has said no such thing. Please share with me the quote of Winman that he said that election is based on our works.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again, Winman has said no such thing. Please share with me the quote of Winman that he said that election is based on our works.

Go find it yourself. You defended him and said he never said it, so go search for it yourself.

And, I've stated this over and over against this teaching of his, that he has plainly stated, and take note, he has never, not one time, said this to be untrue.

He has said, for the last time, that, in election, God judges by our works, and, denies we are "not good" and "unrighteous", but that we are such, and, contrary to unconditional love, and unconditional election, that God does, in fact, look at our works, and elects us accordingly.

He has said "such thing."

 

[jbh28]

Then how do you explain that God said a man's "righteousness which he hath done" shall not be remembered in Eze 3:20 if a man cannot do any righteous acts?

And I have never said a man is saved by works, I said a man is JUDGED by his works, a distinction you cannot seem to grasp.

My issue is with Total Inability, not salvation by grace.

Go find it yourself. You defended him and said he never said it, so go search for it yourself.

No, you made the assertion, so you quote your source. When I make a statement, I'm going to quote my source. I've debated Winman on the doctrine of election. He has never said that God elected us based on our works. In face, he said this:

Then how do you explain that God said a man's "righteousness which he hath done" shall not be remembered in Eze 3:20 if a man cannot do any righteous acts?

And I have never said a man is saved by works, I said a man is JUDGED by his works, a distinction you cannot seem to grasp.

My issue is with Total Inability, not salvation by grace.

And, I've stated this over and over against this teaching of his, that he has plainly stated, and take note, he has never, not one time, said this to be untrue.

He has said, for the last time, that, in election, God judges by our works, and, denies we are "not good" and "unrighteous", but that we are such, and, contrary to unconditional love, and unconditional election, that God does, in fact, look at our works, and elects us accordingly.

He has said "such thing."

Well, God does judge people over their works, but that's not the basis of election. Again, if you are going to make a claim, please back it up. don't make claims about other people and then be too lazy to back it up. I may be wrong, but I have never read anything of Winman that said that election was based on our works.

Also, you keep referring to him as having "false teaching." Would you say then that he is a false teacher and unsaved?


remember, I believe in unconditional election. my issue is when people treat other brothers in Christ with such an unchristlike approach.

 

[Winman]

Go find it yourself. You defended him and said he never said it, so go search for it yourself.

And, I've stated this over and over against this teaching of his, that he has plainly stated, and take note, he has never, not one time, said this to be untrue.

He has said, for the last time, that, in election, God judges by our works, and, denies we are "not good" and "unrighteous", but that we are such, and, contrary to unconditional love, and unconditional election, that God does, in fact, look at our works, and elects us accordingly.

He has said "such thing."

Thank you JBH!

Actually it is difficult to explain. Paul clearly shows that faith is not a work, at the same time, when Jesus was asked what works a man must do to do the works of God, he said believe. So we do have to DO something to be saved, but it is not a work that merits or earns salvation. In fact, believeing or trusting is a ceasing from work, a rest, a depending on Christ alone to save you.

We are required to come to Christ when he calls.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Whether you like it or not, Jesus said you have to come to him to be saved. But this is not a work of merit, it is an act of submission, confessing our sinfulness and lack of ability to save ourselves, and depending on Jesus alone to save us.

I did say election is conditional, God only elects those who trust in Christ.

You can't just do nothing when God calls, you must obey and come.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Deny if you want, but we must obey and come when God calls.

 

[Gershom]

You say total inability is not Scriptural. In other words, you are able, and that God judged your works, and thereby elected you.

End of story.

You're a false teacher.

Total inability is not scriptural. Of course unregenerate people can do good. But good works will save no one.

 

[jbh28]

Thank you JBH!



I did say election is conditional, God only elects those who trust in Christ.

As much as I would say that it's the other way around (because that's what the Bible teaches ) I hope this clears things up preacher and that you will repent for misrepresenting. I try my best to represent those that I disagree with. Winman is my brother in Christ, and as much as I disagree with him, we are both on the same side. That is the side of Christ. I wish Christians would stop making other Christians their enemies.

 

[Skandelon]

That's not a line of reasoning at all. It's utter foolishness. Do you have some kind of source for this so I can see it?

Oh, I agree. It is a foolish argument. The next time a Calvinist quotes Romans 8 as a proof text for total inability I will direct them to you.