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No one on BB has every prayed for an animal?

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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Michael Wrenn said:
Yeah? How? It is not different, except in the minds of legalists who imagine that there is a difference in praying for animals in the open air and praying for them inside a building.
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And praying for animals in the open air and praying for them inside a building is different than dedicating a church service for it.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Michael Wrenn said:
Yes, we are definitely still under the curse, but, at the same time, we are also redeemed. Maybe if you would read a certain passage by Paul that I am thinking of, you would see what I'm talking about.

To say that our redemption is not already an accomplished objective fact is in some sense to deny Christ's work. Our redemption has three aspects: past, present, and future.
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But you are taking the Scripture out of its context here. The key is that Paul is not talking about the past. He is not talking about what was done on the cross. He is speaking of the curse, the effect of the curse which is the present, and the lifting of that curse which is future. He is not speaking of the cross at all, which happened in the past. So you are taking it out of its context.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
DHK said:
But you are taking the Scripture out of its context here. The key is that Paul is not talking about the past. He is not talking about what was done on the cross. He is speaking of the curse, the effect of the curse which is the present, and the lifting of that curse which is future. He is not speaking of the cross at all, which happened in the past. So you are taking it out of its context.
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The scripture I was alluding to is not Romans 8:18-23.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Michael Wrenn said:
The scripture I was alluding to is not Romans 8:18-23.
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As Pad said: Was it a different Rom. 8?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
DHK said:
As Pad said: Was it a different Rom. 8?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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See my reply to PadreDurand.

I thought you might know which scripture I was hinting at, but I guess not.

I was hoping you might recall Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 4:16. Also, look at Colossians 3:10. These verses note the salvation and redemption process that we are in, just as the Romans passage does concerning humans and the creation. This process of redemption began with a past event -- the incarnation, atonement, and resurrection of Jesus -- continues in the present, and will culminate in the future with the vision that Paul has in Romans 8:18-23. Thus, our redemption and that of the creation has been accomplished, is being accomplished at present, and will be brought to complete accomplishment in the future.

Therefore, the entire creation was redeemed, is being redeemed (Paul says "being renewed day by day"), and will be redeemed.

That is the wholistic teaching of the NT, as opposed to the compartmentalization that some see the Gospel as being.

If you "wiseguys" would put your sarcasm and mockery in your pockets, you might actually have your eyes opened.
 
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D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Michael Wrenn said:
That is the wholistic teaching of the NT, as opposed to the compartmentalization that some see the Gospel as being.

If you "wiseguys" would put your sarcasm and mockery in your pockets, you might actually have your eyes opened.
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This "wholistic teaching" as you put it, is very unorthodox, which is another way or a more diplomatic way of saying "heretical." It sounds like you got some new age influence in you.
I came in this discussion when you were discussing the passage concerning Romans 8, and that is the only passage that I have been concerned about. I have expounded it; I have exegeted it; I have explained it. It does not go back to the cross. Redemption is not a process. If it is you are not saved. Redemption happened at the cross. Either you are one of the redeemed or you are not. You can decide that for yourself.

This passage in Romans 8 is not speaking of the redemption per se, it is speaking of the curse. All of creation is under the curse; it groans and travails even until now. We all are under the curse.

This is a pretty loose translation, I'll agree, but:
(WNT) And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.

It is not "redemption" per se. It is the deliverance of our bodies. It is the resurrection. For the rest of the world it refers to the "glorious future," the time when Jesus comes and sets up his Kingdom. That is when the Curse will be lifted.
We wait for the redemption (deliverance, resurrection) of our bodies.
Redemption is not a process. That is heresy.
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Michael Wrenn said:
On the contrary, the redemption obtained for us by Jesus was an objective fact accomplished at the time of His life, death, and resurrection; it is a fact occurring in the present, and it is an ongoing fact that will be ultimately fulfilled in the future. So, the whole creation -- which includes humans and animals -- was redeemed, is redeemed, and is being redeemed.
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You failing to grasp the developmental argument by Paul in Romans 7-8. In Romans 8:1-14 he is describing progressive and partial overcoming sin through the indwelling Spirit of Christ and how the indwelling Spirit of Christ groans within us for utlimate FREEDOM from the power of indwelling sin which still retains power through the appetites/lusts of our physical bodies.

All of creation groans for the same ultimate FREEDOM from the consequences of sin that ravage the whole creation.

If you think that ULTIMATE FREEDOM is now you are sorely deluded. Look at the contrast in tenses between "this present time" and "shall be revealed" and that presently we are WAITING for what SHALL BE not what is:

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We NOW live by HOPE but when these things are revealed/realized there is no more need for HOPE.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

This liberty comes with the resurrection and glorification of our bodies and not until them.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
DHK said:
This "wholistic teaching" as you put it, is very unorthodox, which is another way or a more diplomatic way of saying "heretical." It sounds like you got some new age influence in you.
I came in this discussion when you were discussing the passage concerning Romans 8, and that is the only passage that I have been concerned about. I have expounded it; I have exegeted it; I have explained it. It does not go back to the cross. Redemption is not a process. If it is you are not saved. Redemption happened at the cross. Either you are one of the redeemed or you are not. You can decide that for yourself.

This passage in Romans 8 is not speaking of the redemption per se, it is speaking of the curse. All of creation is under the curse; it groans and travails even until now. We all are under the curse.

This is a pretty loose translation, I'll agree, but:
(WNT) And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.

It is not "redemption" per se. It is the deliverance of our bodies. It is the resurrection. For the rest of the world it refers to the "glorious future," the time when Jesus comes and sets up his Kingdom. That is when the Curse will be lifted.
We wait for the redemption (deliverance, resurrection) of our bodies.
Redemption is not a process. That is heresy.
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I notice you ignore the other verses I referenced that destroy your thesis and instead try to deflect by making it about me, charging me with new ageism -- a complete lie, but typical of you. You are despicable.

Christus Victor was THE orthodox view for a thousand years. It's the 15th century innovation, penal substitution, that is heretical.

Try to deflect, twist, and spin all you want; the scriptures I referenced affirm what I hold and disprove what you hold. And you are supposed to be the inerrantist. Looks like the charge of disbelieving the Bible fits you instead of me.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
The Biblicist said:
You failing to grasp the developmental argument by Paul in Romans 7-8. In Romans 8:1-14 he is describing progressive and partial overcoming sin through the indwelling Spirit of Christ and how the indwelling Spirit of Christ groans within us for utlimate FREEDOM from the power of indwelling sin which still retains power through the appetites/lusts of our physical bodies.

All of creation groans for the same ultimate FREEDOM from the consequences of sin that ravage the whole creation.

If you think that ULTIMATE FREEDOM is now you are sorely deluded. Look at the contrast in tenses between "this present time" and "shall be revealed" and that presently we are WAITING for what SHALL BE not what is:

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We NOW live by HOPE but when these things are revealed/realized there is no more need for HOPE.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

This liberty comes with the resurrection and glorification of our bodies and not until them.
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See bold: Who said that?! In fact, I said just the opposite.

Funny that you guys are ignoring the other scriptures I referenced. My point has been made and proved.
 
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