"no one seeks God"

Helen

I never said we don't seek God. I have specifically said we do seek God. Scripture clearly teaches us that, unless God intervenes in our lives, we will not seek after God.

The difference we have here is that you see salvation as originating in man, something inside them and given to all men at all time, and scripture teaches us salvation orginates with God, for those He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Your focus is on what man does, and then what God does in response to man.

Scripture focuses on what God does, and then what man does in response to God.

Every verse you have quoted can be understood and reconciled with the other scripture passages by grasping the concept that Scripture focuses on what God does, and then what man does in response.

By focusing on what man does, and assuming God then responds to what man does, you will never be able to reconcile the passages of scripture that teach otherwise;

...without ignoring the meaning and context as you have done with Romans 3, which was absolutely and very clearly written to demonstrate that every man on the planet had turned from God, not just the "fool".

How could you miss 3:9 "for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin"... and then the quote of the Psalm? Unless you simply don't want to address what scripture plainly says?

peace to you

[ January 01, 2006, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: canadyjd ]

 

Not necessarilty. The meaning here is probably that none seek after God on their own.</font>[/QUOTE]If that is so, why are there so many passages telling men to seek God? Why not, rather, prayers that God will intervene so that people will seek Him?

EVERY man. Every man has some knowledge of the truth that will lead him to Christ.

Then, again, WHY are we simply told to seek God? That is over and over again, far more times than I quoted, actually.</font>[/QUOTE]

Matthew 5:48

Helen,

do you believe we can be perfect as God is perfect on our own? Or, do we need the help of God to do that?

Joseph Botwinick

 

You are young and hopefully will come into the full knowledge of the truth before God takes you home.

 

1. Do you believe we can be complete as God is complete on our own?

2. The context of my post above with this thread is obvious unless you want to ignore it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

How do you know that we can seek him on our own?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Certainly a double whammy... (snicker).

I am just kidding. I couldn't resist...ok...I am sorry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I will admit to being confused with you Helen. I have read many of your posts and have found them very well thought out, and thouroughly biblical.

It seems to me, if I may be so bold, it is at this point that you struggle with reconciling the biblical record.

Again, I can readily agree with you that God has encouraged all to seek Him and realize His Word tells us that no one does. You seem unwilling to accept that biblical fact. I can readily agree with you that we must accept or reject Christ for salvation and realize that His Word tells us that all have already rejected. You seem unwilling to accept that biblical fact.

What you refuse to see is that His Word tells us that no comes to Christ unless he is first drawn by the Father. What you refuse to see is the essence of God's grace in bringing some out of darkness and giving them the right to become the children of God, not according to anything they did or will do, but because God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion. That is the essence of "unmerited favor".

I suspect that it seems unfair to you that God would call some and not others/all. The only way to make it seem "fair" is to posit the unbiblical premise that all men have an equal chance to accept or reject the gospel, and thus salvation.

That puts the focus on man, and not on God.

peace to you

 

I agree and I don't know what you thought I meant Helen but conviction/reproval is a necessity to salvation because on our own we are not able to believe in Him.

My thesis is that EVERY person has this as common grace gift of God not just the "elect".

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The fruit of this conviction/reproval in the life of every person coming into the world is that they will either chose to depart from the Lord or seek more light or come to the light.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

"shall not the judge of all the earth do right". This is a quality of God which works in any given situation.

Personally and actually, I don't trouble myself about whether we are predisposed, predestined, predecreed, etc.

I was born again ignorant of all these concepts.

I remember hearing a hymn many years ago on a gospel radio station from Wheeling West Virginia.
These may not be the exact words but pretty close.

I don't know why Jesus loves me but I'm glad He does.
I don't know why Jesus died for me but I'm glad He did.
I don't know why Jesus is coming for me but I'm glad He is.

Amen.

HankD

 

Helen and HankD, What great and fantastic posts you two have posted on calvinism. I have enjoyed them so much. Very clear and concise. Much of the scripture that you two post has become igonored by calvinist or not answered except by "what about his verse" type of answer.
I am glad also that you two have not allowed calvinist to use "my God is more soveriegn then your God" mentallity. You two have met head on with calvinism on this board and proven quite well why most christians do not buy into the teachings of calvin. I have saved most of your posts for further reference and teaching.
God bless you both!

 

Thank you Timtoolman - as long as we continually remember that we are brethren and debate without condemning we can hopefully still enjoy each other's fellowship.

I hope you know that I don't accept the label of Aminian either.

HankD

 

Helen

You said:

"It is those who want the truth, those who seek God with all their hearts, even those who love His law! These people -- the people who want Him (whether or not they realize at first that it is Him they want!) -- who are faithfully drawn to our Lord Jesus. And He turns none away."

That is different from:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

peace to you

 

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Well one could say that the Father gives those who want to be saved to His Son.

Again, where does the "want to" come from?

The "want to" has to be through reproval/conviction of sin (unless of course one desires one's sin over the Son of God even in the face of the wrath of God.

Acts 24
24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season,
I will call for thee.


HankD