"no one seeks God"

[Helen]

Originally posted by HankD:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If NONE seek God, then all those other passages in the Bible are lies or just plain wrong.

Not necessarilty. The meaning here is probably that none seek after God on their own.</font>[/QUOTE]If that is so, why are there so many passages telling men to seek God? Why not, rather, prayers that God will intervene so that people will seek Him?

There is this passage in John:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

EVERY man. Every man has some knowledge of the truth that will lead him to Christ.

Because we will not seek God on our own in our flesh, the Holy Spirit has in every age been given to bring enlightenment as to our need of God.

Then, again, WHY are we simply told to seek God? That is over and over again, far more times than I quoted, actually.

In Genesis there is this:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And when that happened, God destroyed the world that was.

On the other hand we have this just before 6:5

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

And that is our age limit now.

snip

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Remember when this was said? When Abraham was arguing with God about the destruction of Sodom. And why would Sodom not be destroyed if there were only ten righteous people in it? Why not just remove those people...? Because ten righteous men were enough to give the people a choice about what to believe and how to live. But when there was no choice left but evil, God destroyed them. Before the Flood, only Noah was found righteous. So he and his were saved and the rest destroyed. When Abraham was promised the land of the Amalekites, it was not to be yet, because their sin had not yet reached full measure. In other words, there were still enough righteous people in it to give the others a choice.

The fact that we have a choice is a central theme of the Bible. "Choose this day whom you will serve," is not an empty sentence. "Come unto me ALL ye that labor and are heavy-laden" is not a vacuous invitation. "God is not willing that ONE should perish" is not a sentence which can be modified to accomodate a belief that He really only means that to include the chosen ones!

We have a choice. We are told to seek God.

This, by the way, has NOTHING to do with 'seeker friendly' churches. What those folks appear to be seeking is not God but entertainment and messages suited to their desires, not their needs.

 

[Helen]

Old Regular, 'rightly dividing the word of truth' does not mean simply choosing what you want things to say. It means studying and digging and praying and being willing to accept what you did not understand before.

I went from evolution to creation, from old age to young age cosmos because I was willing to study and learn and not simply dig my heels in and declare something true because I or someone else said so.

When I first came into contact with Calvinism, I was stunned. But I spent two entire years taking the Bible apart bit by bit in order to discern if Calvinism was what it was talking about. I found that it not only was NOT what it was talking about, but that it spoke almost specifically against it time after time.

But I was ready for whatever the Bible said, either way.

Paul says in Acts that men have a choice. In Romans 3 he quotes the two Psalms which talk about the fools who declare there is no God. If he were talking about all the pagans, then he could not have said what he said in Acts. In Acts 17, he is talking to the men of Athens -- pagans -- and telling them God has organized things in such a way as to make provision for men to seek him.

In Romans 3, who is Paul talking to? At the beginning of chapter 3, Paul turns his attention to Jews -- "What advantage,then, is there in being a Jew? By verse 5, he is using the first person plural -- "our". In verse 9 he asks "Are we any better?" -- referring to Jews over Gentiles.

The point I am making here is that Paul at this point is writing paying specific attention to his Jewish readers (although the church at Rome was composed of both Jews and Gentiles) and thus THEY would have recognized immediately the verses Paul was referring to and KNOWN that the beginning of both those Psalms referred to the fool who says there is no God.

Paul tells us God has set up the populations and places of the world so that people WILL seek Him! We are told to seek Him while He may be found -- while it is still today. Those who seek Him are considered blessed. Jesus said "Seek and ye shall find". Over and over and over again there is the encouragement to seek God.

And in those two Psalms which Paul clearly was quoting it tells us who does not seek God -- the fool who says there is no God. And then Paul also quotes the Psalms telling us what kind of person that fool is.

 

[canadyjd]

Helen

I never said we don't seek God. I have specifically said we do seek God. Scripture clearly teaches us that, unless God intervenes in our lives, we will not seek after God.

The difference we have here is that you see salvation as originating in man, something inside them and given to all men at all time, and scripture teaches us salvation orginates with God, for those He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Your focus is on what man does, and then what God does in response to man.

Scripture focuses on what God does, and then what man does in response to God.

Every verse you have quoted can be understood and reconciled with the other scripture passages by grasping the concept that Scripture focuses on what God does, and then what man does in response.

By focusing on what man does, and assuming God then responds to what man does, you will never be able to reconcile the passages of scripture that teach otherwise;

...without ignoring the meaning and context as you have done with Romans 3, which was absolutely and very clearly written to demonstrate that every man on the planet had turned from God, not just the "fool".

How could you miss 3:9 "for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin"... and then the quote of the Psalm? Unless you simply don't want to address what scripture plainly says?

peace to you

[ January 01, 2006, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: canadyjd ]

 

[Helen]

You have me wrong, canadyjd. I am not focusing on man and I do not believe salvation originates with man at all.

Salvation is of God. It is His gift to us at His expense and on His terms.

But we are allowed to accept or reject. We are also encouraged to seek God. That is in His Word to us. Quoting His Word is not, I think, focusing on man, but rather on what God has said to man.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Helen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If NONE seek God, then all those other passages in the Bible are lies or just plain wrong.

Not necessarilty. The meaning here is probably that none seek after God on their own.</font>[/QUOTE]If that is so, why are there so many passages telling men to seek God? Why not, rather, prayers that God will intervene so that people will seek Him?

There is this passage in John:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

EVERY man. Every man has some knowledge of the truth that will lead him to Christ.

Because we will not seek God on our own in our flesh, the Holy Spirit has in every age been given to bring enlightenment as to our need of God.

Then, again, WHY are we simply told to seek God? That is over and over again, far more times than I quoted, actually.</font>[/QUOTE]

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:48

Helen,

do you believe we can be perfect as God is perfect on our own? Or, do we need the help of God to do that?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

First of all, that word perfect means 'complete', and second of all, the context of that passage is in our relationships with other people -- that we should love (care, commit, work to help) others no matter who they are. This passage is not a general order for us to be totally sinless and 'perfect' in the way I think you are trying to get it to mean!

By caring for all, friend or enemy, we are being perfect as God is perfect in that He sent His Son to die for us all while we were all yet sinners. Now I know I cannot have that attitude and that caring without the Holy Spirit loving and caring through me! I presume no one else can either.

But I'm curious how you are tying this in with the subject of this thread regarding seeking God...

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Helen:
Old Regular, 'rightly dividing the word of truth' does not mean simply choosing what you want things to say. It means studying and digging and praying and being willing to accept what you did not understand before.

I went from evolution to creation, from old age to young age cosmos because I was willing to study and learn and not simply dig my heels in and declare something true because I or someone else said so.

When I first came into contact with Calvinism, I was stunned. But I spent two entire years taking the Bible apart bit by bit in order to discern if Calvinism was what it was talking about. I found that it not only was NOT what it was talking about, but that it spoke almost specifically against it time after time.

But I was ready for whatever the Bible said, either way.

You are young and hopefully will come into the full knowledge of the truth before God takes you home.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Helen:
First of all, that word perfect means 'complete', and second of all, the context of that passage is in our relationships with other people -- that we should love (care, commit, work to help) others no matter who they are. This passage is not a general order for us to be totally sinless and 'perfect' in the way I think you are trying to get it to mean!

By caring for all, friend or enemy, we are being perfect as God is perfect in that He sent His Son to die for us all while we were all yet sinners. Now I know I cannot have that attitude and that caring without the Holy Spirit loving and caring through me! I presume no one else can either.

But I'm curious how you are tying this in with the subject of this thread regarding seeking God...

1. Do you believe we can be complete as God is complete on our own?

2. The context of my post above with this thread is obvious unless you want to ignore it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

Have mercy on me, Joseph. I'm a California blonde, OK?

We can never be as complete as God is on our own. But we can seek Him!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

How do you know that we can seek him on our own?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Helen:
Have mercy on me, Joseph. I'm a California blonde, OK?

Certainly a double whammy... (snicker).

I am just kidding. I couldn't resist...ok...I am sorry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[canadyjd]

Originally posted by Helen:
You have me wrong, canadyjd. I am not focusing on man and I do not believe salvation originates with man at all.

Salvation is of God. It is His gift to us at His expense and on His terms.

But we are allowed to accept or reject. We are also encouraged to seek God. That is in His Word to us. Quoting His Word is not, I think, focusing on man, but rather on what God has said to man.

I will admit to being confused with you Helen. I have read many of your posts and have found them very well thought out, and thouroughly biblical.

It seems to me, if I may be so bold, it is at this point that you struggle with reconciling the biblical record.

Again, I can readily agree with you that God has encouraged all to seek Him and realize His Word tells us that no one does. You seem unwilling to accept that biblical fact. I can readily agree with you that we must accept or reject Christ for salvation and realize that His Word tells us that all have already rejected. You seem unwilling to accept that biblical fact.

What you refuse to see is that His Word tells us that no comes to Christ unless he is first drawn by the Father. What you refuse to see is the essence of God's grace in bringing some out of darkness and giving them the right to become the children of God, not according to anything they did or will do, but because God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion. That is the essence of "unmerited favor".

I suspect that it seems unfair to you that God would call some and not others/all. The only way to make it seem "fair" is to posit the unbiblical premise that all men have an equal chance to accept or reject the gospel, and thus salvation.

That puts the focus on man, and not on God.

peace to you

 

[HankD]

We have a choice. We are told to seek God.

I agree and I don't know what you thought I meant Helen but conviction/reproval is a necessity to salvation because on our own we are not able to believe in Him.

My thesis is that EVERY person has this as common grace gift of God not just the "elect".

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The fruit of this conviction/reproval in the life of every person coming into the world is that they will either chose to depart from the Lord or seek more light or come to the light.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

"shall not the judge of all the earth do right". This is a quality of God which works in any given situation.

Personally and actually, I don't trouble myself about whether we are predisposed, predestined, predecreed, etc.

I was born again ignorant of all these concepts.

I remember hearing a hymn many years ago on a gospel radio station from Wheeling West Virginia.
These may not be the exact words but pretty close.

I don't know why Jesus loves me but I'm glad He does.
I don't know why Jesus died for me but I'm glad He did.
I don't know why Jesus is coming for me but I'm glad He is.

Amen.

HankD

 

[Timtoolman]

Helen and HankD, What great and fantastic posts you two have posted on calvinism. I have enjoyed them so much. Very clear and concise. Much of the scripture that you two post has become igonored by calvinist or not answered except by "what about his verse" type of answer.
I am glad also that you two have not allowed calvinist to use "my God is more soveriegn then your God" mentallity. You two have met head on with calvinism on this board and proven quite well why most christians do not buy into the teachings of calvin. I have saved most of your posts for further reference and teaching.
God bless you both!

 

[canadyjd]

 

[HankD]

Thank you Timtoolman - as long as we continually remember that we are brethren and debate without condemning we can hopefully still enjoy each other's fellowship.

I am glad also that you two have not allowed calvinist to use "my God is more soveriegn then your God" mentallity.

I hope you know that I don't accept the label of Aminian either.

HankD

 

[Helen]

I hope you know that I don't accept the label of Aminian either.

Me too neither (blame my kids for that one).

And thanks, Timtoolman.

canadyjd, I'm sorry I confuse you. I appreciate your compliments, however! I think when you say no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father, you are entering the argument in the middle, so to speak. The Bible indicates who the Father will draw to Christ in a number of places -- many times in the Psalms, certainly, and in Romans and Hebrews as well. It is those who want the truth, those who seek God with all their hearts, even those who love His law! These people -- the people who want Him (whether or not they realize at first that it is Him they want!) -- who are faithfully drawn to our Lord Jesus. And He turns none away.

God really has loved the whole world -- what will we do with that love?

He really has given a measure of grace to each man -- what will we do with that grace?

How we respond is everything. He has made overtures to everyone through His creation, His grace, His historical promises, even through the sciences. It is how a person responds which determines what God will do with him or her.

But this I know, He did it all in terms of salvation. And I know that ALL we can do is respond until He starts working through us when we are born again. And I also know we cannot lose salvation once we are born again.

These things I learned from the Bible, not from various commentators.

 

[canadyjd]

Helen

You said:

"It is those who want the truth, those who seek God with all their hearts, even those who love His law! These people -- the people who want Him (whether or not they realize at first that it is Him they want!) -- who are faithfully drawn to our Lord Jesus. And He turns none away."

That is different from:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

peace to you

 

[HankD]

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Well one could say that the Father gives those who want to be saved to His Son.

Again, where does the "want to" come from?

The "want to" has to be through reproval/conviction of sin (unless of course one desires one's sin over the Son of God even in the face of the wrath of God.

Acts 24
24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season,
I will call for thee.


HankD

 

[Helen]

canadyjd, I repeat, you are coming in in the middle of the argument as though it were the beginning. I can only refer you to my post above. Of course "All the Father gives me will come to me..."

The question is not that at all. That is a statement of fact. The question is, "Who are they that the Father gives to Christ". You say they were determined before the foundation of the world.

But the Bible seems to say differently. Although they were KNOWN before the foundation of the world, simply because God is outside of time and sees the end from the beginning, they nevertheless have had a choice to make on their own regarding which path their life will take. Those who want the truth will be led by the Father to the Son. This is the clear indication of Romans 1 and so many, many other passages, a few of which I have quoted, but most of which would take far too long to quote.