"no one seeks God"

[canadyjd]

Helen

Being "known" before the foundation of the world refers to "relationship", not "information".

God didn't look forward and learn something new(i.e. who would accept and who would reject, and then choose based on that merit), God "knows" us before the foundation of the world as in an intimate relationship.

Romans 8:28-30

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become comformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

God "foreknew", God "presestined", God "called", God "justified", God "glorified".

You said

"Those who want the truth will be led by the Father to the Son. This is the clear indication of Romans 1 and so many, many other passages..."

Pick one and lets talk about it. Then I'll pick a verse and well talk about it.

peace to you

 

[Helen]

We can stick with Romans 8:28-30

those who love God....that's the first part. They are the ones who are called according to his purpose.

Those He foreknew He predestined to become something -- to be conformed to the image of his Son.

He did not predestine them to become believers, but He knew who would make what choice. And those who would choose Him, He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

The Greek word for "foreknow" simply means to have knowledge ahead of time. It has nothing to do with the intimacy of 'knowing' in the sense of sex or a close intimate relationship. If you are trying to indicate a close intimate relationship between us and God before our conceptions, you are dangerously close to the Mormon idea of a prelife!

 

[webdog]

What those folks appear to be seeking is not God but entertainment and messages suited to their desires, not their needs.

I don't want to hijack the thread...but this statement bugs me. This is NOT "seeker sensitive", as is so falsely alluded to by those who have no knowledge of the term...

---back to topic---

 

[canadyjd]

Helen

OK, let's start with Romans 8: and try to figure out what "foreknew" means.

According to Friberg, Friberg, and Miller: Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: the Greek word translated "foreknew" is "proginosko": It has 3 primary meanings:

1. know something beforehand or in advance
2. know someone previously
3. select in advance, choose or appoint beforehand.

The authors favor the 3rd meaning for Rom. 8:29 and use that text as an example of "selecting beforehand."

You appear to favor the first meaning. That God knew something beforehand (who would choose Christ) and then predestined them to be conformed to the image of Christ, based on that knowledge.

I favor the 2nd, "to know someone previously". I base that on context.

In Romans 8:14, Paul says "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

"led by the Spirit of God, Sons of God" is relationship language.

8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have recieved a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba, Father'".

"adoption, sons, 'Abba, Father'" is all relationship language.

8:16: "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" (17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him..."

"testifies with our spirit, children of God, heirs, heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, suffer with Him" is relationship language.

8:23"....we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons..."

"adoption as sons" is relationship language

8:26 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness...He who searches the hearts...the Spirit Himself intercedes for us...He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God".

"helps our weakness, searches the heart, intercedes, intercedes" is relationship language.

So, for many verses, Paul has taken great pains to paint of a picture of an intimate relatinship between God and those who are freed from sin by Christ Jesus (7:24-25+). Then comes v. 8:29

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son".

"foreknew(as I maintain: relationship), conformed to the image of His Son" relationship language.

What comes next?

v.31 "God is for us" relationship language
v.33 "God's elect" relationship language
v.35-39 "nothing can separate us from the love of Christ" relationship language.

So, the reason I maintain that "foreknew" means to "know beforehand: i.e. as in a relationship" is that the context, both before and after the verse, is full of relationship language.

Just so I make myself clear, I do not believe we existed in a pre-life.

Just as God could say in Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you..." Paul reveals to us, through the Holy Spirit that God "foreknew" us in Rom.8:29.

peace to you

 

[bjonson]

Helen,

I invite you to read this brief article on this subject - John has stated it so well I think it should be read by everyone interested in this:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html

 

[bjonson]

Ok, let's try to sort through this foreknowledge issue with a scriptural example.

Look at these scriptures:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cap-padocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. " (1 Peter 1:1-2, ESV)

"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake," (1 Peter 1:20, ESV)

Verse 2 has "foreknowledge" and verse 20 has "foreknown".

The Greek in verse 2 is "prognosis" and means "to know before", as has been explained.

The Greek in verse 20 is "proginōskō" and is simply a different form of the same verb, as you can see.

So, whatever this word means in verse 2 it must also mean in verse 20. Jesus Christ was foreknown by the Father. Those arguing for "simple foreknowledege" of those who will believe are in a very difficult situation here. If we are elect according to God looking into time and seeing what we would do, then He also elected His Son by looking into the future and seeing what Christ would do. Could Christ have failed? Could He have sinned? Absolutely not! Christ's end was determined exactly by the plan of God and that is because the Father "foreknew" the Son due to the eternal relationship that exists between them.

In the same way, we are "elected" according to the foreknowledge of God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1 and 1 Peter 1:1,2). God predetermined the relationship that He has with His elect because He initiated it before we were born and had done anything, good or bad (Romans 9:11). And, that is why Paul described us as foreknown by God in Romans 8:29. He didn't say our faith was foreknown, but WE were foreknown. It was a predetermined relationship.
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[rozy]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Helen and HankD, What great and fantastic posts you two have posted on calvinism. I have enjoyed them so much. Very clear and concise. Much of the scripture that you two post has become igonored by calvinist or not answered except by "what about his verse" type of answer.
I am glad also that you two have not allowed calvinist to use "my God is more soveriegn then your God" mentallity. You two have met head on with calvinism on this board and proven quite well why most christians do not buy into the teachings of calvin. I have saved most of your posts for further reference and teaching.
God bless you both!

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