No pastors in the Bible

[alvin]

Your error here is called in linguistics the root fallacy, which is the idea that the origin of the word gives it its modern meaning. The word "pastor" does have an etymology from the Latin word, but that proves nothing as to whether or not it should be used to translate the Greek word. The word "pastor" has been an English word for centuries. By insisting on going back to the Latin word, you are revealing a grave lack in your linguistic knowledge.

John, please review and tell me who are to be the Spirit aointed shepherds of the church. Simple question.

Yes...please review and then tell me who has been given the task of shepherding the Church.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God;

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

WHo are these shepherds? Pastors or Elders. Are pastors even mentioned? Of course not. Elders and only Elders. This is not an opinion, all I have done is quote scriptures that you should know and teach.

 

[John of Japan]

I do not accept your excuse for having a small church and thus you can ignore the Bible on this matter. If you are an Elder then you only need one more. What is so hard about that? Have you taught your church about this? No. When are you? Are you going to continue to be a pastor and ignore the fact that the role of the pastor supplanted the Elders? Ego is more important to some that than biblical truth...simple and obvious biblical truth.

I call the neglect of the elders, the overthrow of the elders for the idea of office not found in the Bible anti biblical, what do you call it?

I have studied this whole issue from the Greek in great detail. You have nothing to tech me on it. I've considered your view often in the past and found it very wanting Biblically, theologically, linguistically and every other way.

I have defined pastor/shepherd in terms of my activities as a pastor. I have asked you to show me which of these pastoral activities are un-Biblical. I will now assume that you are unable to do so since you have not.

I'm going to continue to be a pastor (shepherd) as God called me, following my Chief Shepherd, and know that I am right Biblically. And your insulting accusation of "ego" is meaningless to the issue and indeed weakens your case as personal attacks always do.

 

[alvin]

I gave verses showing the function of shepherding was taught by Jesus, the "Chief Shepherd." You ignored them. Pastor is shepherd and shepherd is pastor. By denying this you are disputing the plain Word of God, "doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" (1 Tim . 6:4).

I don't "covet" the title pastor. It was given to me by God and so I "magnify mine office." Several weeks ago as pastor I performed the funeral for Katsu, a believer at the request of Tomiro, a believer. Sunday as pastor I picked up Ushiro for church, an ex-drug pusher. As pastor and linguist I will be doing a favor for Mrs. T. this week. As pastor I'm trying to get Ushiro to invite his friend Ishikawa to church, a former gangster. I often counsel believers as pastor. Thursday after having a Bible study with Ushiro he took me next door to pray as pastor with a handicapped man.

So you tell me, what is wrong with this? Which of these elements of my "pastoring" is un-Biblical?

All lies supplant a truth and it is the truth that sets us free. the idea of a "pastoral office" is not in the Bible and it supplant Elders that is in the Bible. If that is not anti biblical then what do you call it?

 

[alvin]

I have studied this whole issue from the Greek in great detail. You have nothing to tech me on it. I've considered your view often in the past and found it very wanting Biblically, theologically, linguistically and every other way.

I have defined pastor/shepherd in terms of my activities as a pastor. I have asked you to show me which of these pastoral activities are un-Biblical. I will now assume that you are unable to do so since you have not.

I'm going to continue to be a pastor (shepherd) as God called me, following my Chief Shepherd, and know that I am right Biblically. And your insulting accusation of "ego" is meaningless to the issue and indeed weakens your case as personal attacks always do.

If you studied it in the Greek you have come up lacking. It is very, very simple and you do not have to use Greek at all. We know who the shepherds and the overseers are because Paul identifies them. Very simple! Greek sheds light but wven without it is is easy to see.

 

[John of Japan]

John, please review and tell me who are to be the Spirit aointed shepherds of the church. Simple question.

Yes...please review and then tell me who has been given the task of shepherding the Church.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God;

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

WHo are these shepherds? Pastors or Elders. Are pastors even mentioned? Of course not. Elders and only Elders. This is not an opinion, all I have done is quote scriptures that you should know and teach.

I will answer this as soon as you prove that the modern word "pastor" does not mean someone who shepherds the flock as I have delineated. I have mentioned numerous ways in which I shepherd/pastor my flock. Which of them is un-Biblical: praying with people, performing funerals, teaching the people, counseling problems, helping believers grow? Which is un-Biblical?

When you can answer this I will deal with your passages, which fit right into my definition of the pastor. You are trying to condemn a view of pastor that is completely foreign to what I believe a pastor is.

 

[alvin]

I have studied this whole issue from the Greek in great detail. You have nothing to tech me on it. I've considered your view often in the past and found it very wanting Biblically, theologically, linguistically and every other way.

I have defined pastor/shepherd in terms of my activities as a pastor. I have asked you to show me which of these pastoral activities are un-Biblical. I will now assume that you are unable to do so since you have not.

I'm going to continue to be a pastor (shepherd) as God called me, following my Chief Shepherd, and know that I am right Biblically. And your insulting accusation of "ego" is meaningless to the issue and indeed weakens your case as personal attacks always do.

BTW, your acts as a pastor do not affirm your arguments. Your acts are that of a minister, not a pastor.

 

[Revmitchell]

 

[alvin]

BTW, your acts as a pastor do not affirm your arguments. Your acts are that of a minister, not a pastor.

Do you perform act of compassion because you view yourself as a pastor? I hope not.

 

[John of Japan]

All lies supplant a truth and it is the truth that sets us free. the idea of a "pastoral office" is not in the Bible and it supplant Elders that is in the Bible. If that is not anti biblical then what do you call it?

Once again, tell me where loving my flock, counseling them, hurting with them, weeping with them, teaching them and helping them to grow--tell me how that is un-Biblical?

 

[John of Japan]

BTW, your acts as a pastor do not affirm your arguments. Your acts are that of a minister, not a pastor.

I say they are the work of a modern pastor. Who gave you the right to say my definition of pastor is wrong?

 

[alvin]

Once again, tell me where loving my flock, counseling them, hurting with them, weeping with them, teaching them and helping them to grow--tell me how that is un-Biblical?

They are not "your flock." They are the responsibility of the Elders. You are doing the work of a minister and a minster is what all Christians are.

 

[alvin]

I say they are the work of a modern pastor. Who gave you the right to say my definition of pastor is wrong?

The Bible says they are wrong not me. all I have done is show you the care of the Church is spelled out clearly in the Bible and it is the responsibility of Elders.

 

[alvin]

The Bible says they are wrong not me. all I have done is show you the care of the Church is spelled out clearly in the Bible and it is the responsibility of Elders.

Become an Elder, teach the roles of the Elder, raise up Elders in the Church. Build a Church founded on the Bible. What is wrong with that?

 

[John of Japan]

They are not "your flock." They are the responsibility of the Elders. You are doing the work of a minister and a minster is what all Christians are.

One again you show linguistic ignorance. The word "my" as I used it in "my flock" does not always mean possession. If I say "my family" does that mean I own them? No.

 

[John of Japan]

Become an Elder, teach the roles of the Elder, raise up Elders in the Church. Build a Church founded on the Bible. What is wrong with that?

Tell me how being an elder is different from the pastoring I've described. If I am wrong, what did Jesus mean when He told Peter to "feed my sheep"?

And you have called yourself a "pastor" on this thread and on your personl page here on the BB. Does this make you a hypocrite?

 

[alvin]

One again you show linguistic ignorance. The word "my" as I used it in "my flock" does not always mean possession. If I say "my family" does that mean I own them? No.

Why did you call them "my flock?" that term is a familar term used among pastor's is it not? Do not they see themselves as the shepherds of the Church of God and that this Church has been paced in their care even though there is ample evidence that the care of the Church has been place in the care of a body of people called the Elders? So when you say "my flock" is is a term I have heard many times by pastors and it should never be heard at all. They are not your flock or to any other...only what the Bible says....Elders.

 

[alvin]

Tell me how being an elder is different from the pastoring I've described. If I am wrong, what did Jesus mean when He told Peter to "feed my sheep"?

And you have called yourself a "pastor" on this thread and on your personl page here on the BB. Does this make you a hypocrite?

Yes, I have been a pastor for 40 years and I continue to be a pastor to this day. However, I am abandoning that term and leading our Church to begin the process of returning to Elder rule. My name will be place among other candidates. Perhaps I will be selected to serve as an Elder, it would be a great privilege and responsibility. I am glad I have the opportunity to repent before I face the judgement.

 

[John of Japan]

Why did you call them "my flock?" that term is a familar term used among pastor's is it not? Do not they see themselves as the shepherds of the Church of God and that this Church has been paced in their care even though there is ample evidence that the care of the Church has been place in the care of a body of people called the Elders? So when you say "my flock" is is a term I have heard many times by pastors and it should never be heard at all. They are not your flock or to any other...only what the Bible says....Elders.

This is a side issue. It matters not at all to me.

Once again I ask. How is being an elder different from being a pastor as I have described it and loving and caring for the sheep?

 

[alvin]

Yes, I have been a pastor for 40 years and I continue to be a pastor to this day. However, I am abandoning that term and leading our Church to begin the process of returning to Elder rule. My name will be place among other candidates. Perhaps I will be selected to serve as an Elder, it would be a great privilege and responsibility. I am glad I have the opportunity to repent before I face the judgement.

I have sought truth all my life but was blinded to this fact and am shameful of the fact. Hypocrite, yes and whatever else you may want to call me. I failed the church in this matter and took on the title pastor when I should have led every church I pastored to be an Elder led Church.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, I have been a pastor for 40 years and I continue to be a pastor to this day. However, I am abandoning that term and leading our Church to begin the process of returning to Elder rule. My name will be place among other candidates. Perhaps I will be selected to serve as an Elder, it would be a great privilege and responsibility. I am glad I have the opportunity to repent before I face the judgement.

The fact that you are using the term here and have not yet abandoned it makes all of this sound ridiculous. If you were acting in good faith you would have already abandoned the term.