No pastors in the Bible

[alvin]

This is a side issue. It matters not at all to me.

Once again I ask. How is being an elder different from being a pastor as I have described it and loving and caring for the sheep?

Clarify for me. Are you saying as a pastor you are one and the same as an Elder? Because that comparison is not in the Bible. When you love and care for people is the work of being human. We do not need any title to love and care for others.

 

[John of Japan]

I have sought truth all my life but was blinded to this fact and am shameful of the fact. Hypocrite, yes and whatever else you may want to call me. I failed the church in this matter and took on the title pastor when I should have led every church I pastored to be an Elder led Church.

You have been so insulting to pastors here on this thread that you have no credibility at all to me. If you were acting in a spiritual and God-honoring manner you would not be insulting us who choose to still call ourselves pastors as you did for 40 years.

 

[John of Japan]

Clarify for me. Are you saying as a pastor you are one and the same as an Elder? Because that comparison is not in the Bible. When you love and care for people is the work of being human. We do not need any title to love and care for others.

I have asked you twice now to tell me what an elder does which is different from how I've described a pastor. Apparently you can't even define what an elder does. So where is your credibility?

 

[alvin]

The fact that you are using the term here and have not yet abandoned it makes all of this sound ridiculous. If you were acting in good faith you would have already abandoned the term.

John, I reject the term "pastor" at my church and my fellow church members refer to me as their minster. What is wrong with that. I am a minster and they are minster likewise. Why would that be offensive to anyone. Why do some have to be called "pastor." As I have said, the only reason pastors can not get past this is ego, career, and an over inflated sense of importance.

 

[alvin]

You have been so insulting to pastors here on this thread that you have no credibility at all to me. If you were acting in a spiritual and God-honoring manner you would not be insulting us who choose to still call ourselves pastors as you did for 40 years.

Which Bible verses have I quoted you that you think insults pastors in general or you in specific? I let these verses speak for themselves. Which one do you dispute? Which one do you thing allows for the overthrow of Elders?

 

[John of Japan]

John, I reject the term "pastor" at my church and my fellow church members refer to me as their minster. What is wrong with that. I am a minster and they are minster likewise. Why would that be offensive to anyone. Why do some have to be called "pastor." As I have said, the only reason pastors can not get past this is ego, career, and an over inflated sense of importance.

Again you insult us and judge us. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand" (Rom. 14:4).

Since you can't answer the simplest question (what does an elder do), I'm out of here.

 

[Revmitchell]

Again you insult us and judge us.

He feeds off of it.

 

[alvin]

To anyone out there...who among you can deny the rightful place of the Elders in our Church. We have forsaken the clear teaching of the Bible on this matter and still claim to be Bible Believing Christians with a Bible based Church. Those of you who are pastors should know these things. Those of you who are not pastors, go ask your pastors "what happened to the Elders?" "Where are they.?" Ask them if the pastor is an Elder then where are the rest of them, and why is he called pastor when then other Elders are not. Ask them why the word for shepherd in Eph. 4:11 is translated in all Greek throughout all known history as shepherd...except in the one place. If he says he is a shepherd then ask him why he does not say so...and most important....who called him to be an Elder of the church.

 

[alvin]

Again you insult us and judge us. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand" (Rom. 14:4).

Since you can't answer the simplest question (what does an elder do), I'm out of here.

John...the Elders oversee and shepherd the church. simple. They are charged to do what you claim as your office. Either the Bible is correct and you are incorrect or vise versa. I have been answering that question all day.

 

[Luke2427]

I have noticed that throughout the New Testament the work of overseeing and shepherding the Church is solely the responsibility of the Elders and never is it the task of someone called a "pastor." In Ephesians 4:11 the word for shepherd is translated "pastor" using a Latin term. What I do not understand is that this is such an obvious truth and yet those who consider themselves strict holders to biblical truth ignore this fact. Upon what authority have the Elders been dismissed and replaced with a pastor. Comment would be most welcome.

So, is your beef with the TERM or the office?

Your argument seems to rest on the relative absence of the term "pastors," an assertion with which I find merit.

But I don't see you arguing against the fulfillment of the OFFICE of pastor if it is called by a different name.

The Bible does teach that the ideal is a multiplicity of elders for the leading of a church.

But the Bible teaches that there is one of those elders who is worthy of double honor: the one who labors in word and doctrine.

Hebrews 13 reminds us twice that those who preach the word have the rule of the church and that members of the church are to submit themselves to them.

v 7- "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

v 17- "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

So, even if the "term" is not ideal, the office is clearly supported by the Scriptures.

 

[drfuss]

I have noticed that throughout the New Testament the work of overseeing and shepherding the Church is solely the responsibility of the Elders and never is it the task of someone called a "pastor." In Ephesians 4:11 the word for shepherd is translated "pastor" using a Latin term. What I do not understand is that this is such an obvious truth and yet those who consider themselves strict holders to biblical truth ignore this fact. Upon what authority have the Elders been dismissed and replaced with a pastor. Comment would be most welcome.

You are correct. In the N.T., there was no single leader in the churches unless there was an apostle in that church. The point is that the church was not lead by a single leader regardless of the title you give them.

However, today the senior pastor concept is so ingrained in our churches that changing it back would cause too much of an upheaval in the churches.

Authority given to the group of elders in the N.T., does not directly apply to a single paster. Hence, the reason baptist churches are governed by a constitution and bylaws.

 

[Luke2427]

You are correct. In the N.T., there was no single leader in the churches unless there was an apostle in that church. The point is that the church was not lead by a single leader regardless of the title you give them.

However, today the senior pastor concept is so ingrained in our churches that changing it back would cause too much of an upheaval in the churches.

Authority given to the group of elders in the N.T., does not directly apply to a single paster. Hence, the reason baptist churches are governed by a constitution and bylaws.

The Bible does teach that the ideal is a multiplicity of elders for the leading of a church.

But the Bible teaches that there is one of those elders who is worthy of double honor: the one who labors in word and doctrine.

Hebrews 13 reminds us twice that those who preach the word have the rule of the church and that members of the church are to submit themselves to them.

v 7- "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

v 17- "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

So, even if the "term" is not ideal, the office is clearly supported by the Scriptures.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are correct. In the N.T., there was no single leader in the churches unless there was an apostle in that church. The point is that the church was not lead by a single leader regardless of the title you give them.

However, today the senior pastor concept is so ingrained in our churches that changing it back would cause too much of an upheaval in the churches.

Authority given to the group of elders in the N.T., does not directly apply to a single paster. Hence, the reason baptist churches are governed by a constitution and bylaws.

UPHEAVEL...:laugh: now that's funny. Change must just be so darn uncomfortable to those who really & truly cannot transform. So what did Brother John the Baptist do...did he say we cannot have upheavel.... I will stay right here in the comfort of my own home & the heck with that desert preaching thing...LOL.

And then our savior Jesus......my God...what did they go out there to do?

 

[HankD]

Not true. The word in Ephesians 4:11 that is translated as pastor is tranlated everywhere else in the Bible as shepherd. Only here in Eph 4:1 do we not translate from Greek to English (shepherd) but change it from Greek to Latin (pastor). God did not put the word pastor in 4:11, He put shepherd. Man changed it to pastor.

That's not my point alvin. I believe you misunderstood what I was saying which is easy to do when reading my blatherings.

There is an ancient translation of the OT called the Septuagint.
The Greek word in this translation of this OT from Hebrew (the word is awaw) to Greek is the same Greek word as in Ephesians 4:11.

That's my point.

HankD

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Any church that operates with a plurality of elders is also operating with a plurality of pastors, a plurality of bishops, a plurality of shepherds, a plurality of presbyters, a plurality of overseers because all these terms are synonymous. Therefore, this thread is much ado about nothing.

 

[drfuss]

The Bible does teach that the ideal is a multiplicity of elders for the leading of a church.

But the Bible teaches that there is one of those elders who is worthy of double honor: the one who labors in word and doctrine.

Hebrews 13 reminds us twice that those who preach the word have the rule of the church and that members of the church are to submit themselves to them.

v 7- "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

v 17- "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

So, even if the "term" is not ideal, the office is clearly supported by the Scriptures.

What I have put in bold above is simply not true. I Tim.5:17 - "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine." There was more than one and probably quite a few elders that labored in the word and doctrine. I Tim 5:17 specifically says that there was more than one who labors in the word.

This refutes the idea of the N.T. church having a leading elder based on laboring in the word.

 

[Revmitchell]

This refutes the idea of the N.T. church having a leading elder based on laboring in the word.

No it doesn't in fact neither one of you have made your case. There is no thus saith the Lord on this.

 

[alvin]

You have been so insulting to pastors here on this thread that you have no credibility at all to me. If you were acting in a spiritual and God-honoring manner you would not be insulting us who choose to still call ourselves pastors as you did for 40 years.

When you say I am insulting to pastors do you mean insulting to you, or to the office of the pastor? If you mean the "office of the pastor' then there can be no insult as there is no "office of the pastor" found in Scripture.

 

[alvin]

You are correct. In the N.T., there was no single leader in the churches unless there was an apostle in that church. The point is that the church was not lead by a single leader regardless of the title you give them.

However, today the senior pastor concept is so ingrained in our churches that changing it back would cause too much of an upheaval in the churches.

Authority given to the group of elders in the N.T., does not directly apply to a single paster. Hence, the reason baptist churches are governed by a constitution and bylaws.

It does not matter what upheaval it causes, we must do what is right and absolutely clear in Scripture. Church councils and congregational rule cannot replace the role of the Elders. We cannot call ourselves "people of the Book" if we ignore the "Book."

 

[alvin]

The Bible does teach that the ideal is a multiplicity of elders for the leading of a church.

But the Bible teaches that there is one of those elders who is worthy of double honor: the one who labors in word and doctrine.

Hebrews 13 reminds us twice that those who preach the word have the rule of the church and that members of the church are to submit themselves to them.

v 7- "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

v 17- "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

So, even if the "term" is not ideal, the office is clearly supported by the Scriptures.

Bylaws and Church Constitution does not take precedence of the Bible.