No pastors in the Bible

[alvin]

Yes, I understand but other than Jesus who is the only people charged with shepherding the Church? Elders and none other.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God;

Also;Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

THIS is very simple.

 

[Revmitchell]

And yet again pastor means shepherd. What is hard about that to understand.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Then abandon the term pastor and ask the church to recognize you as an Elder.

They already do that. What you are proposing is unnecessary- and anti-Biblical.

 

[alvin]

Here you show your ignorance about the difficulties of ministry and even especially missions. I suggest you get some experience before you try to speak anymore on this. I seriously doubt that you have pastored for 40 years. Nothing you have said in this thread reflects that kind of experience.

Yes, 4o years in the ministry. Why does this matter. Anyone who is honest with the Bible can see these simple truths.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Where is the word pastor and elder used interchangeably? You are not even close. In the NT there are only Elders, the ONLY word with this is Overseer. If you are saying a pastor is the modern day equivalent of an Elder then I ask: Why do you not call yourself an Elder and where are the rest of your Elders? You know very well the word pastor, like the word bishop is nowhere in the NT. Pastor certainly is not an "office" and certainly is not synonymous with anything in the NT. THe pastor has replace the Elders in the church and the Elders were instituted by the Holy Spirit. By what authority has this substitution occurred?

You obviously know zero about New Testament scholarship. It is an established fact that the words pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/presbyter are synonymous terms for one and the same office. You are either ignorant of this fact, willfully or otherwise, or you are disingenuous. Before you come on a forum spouting your notions which are devoid of historical and scriptural fact, you should realize that you will be met by those with sufficient knowledge and education to refute your totally unsubstantiated and errant claims.

 

[alvin]

Then abandon the term pastor and ask the church to recognize you as an Elder.

I already have.

 

[alvin]

You obviously know zero about New Testament scholarship. It is an established fact that the words pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/presbyter are synonymous terms for one and the same office. You are either ignorant of this fact, willfully or otherwise, or you are disingenuous. Before you come on a forum spouting your notions which are devoid of historical and scriptural fact, you should realize that you will be met by those with sufficient knowledge and education to refute your totally unsubstantiated and errant claims.

Show me anywhere where pastor is an office, or show me anywhere where the word pastor is synonymous with Elder, Bishop, or with anything for that matter. No one has been able to show me a single verse all day. Bishop and pastor are both Latin words that are not found in the Bible. What is translated into latin "Bishop" is, as you know is "Overseer" and, as you also know, the Elder and the Overseer are one and the same. What part of this do you dispute?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Show me anywhere where pastor is an office, or show me anywhere where the word pastor is synonymous with Elder, Bishop, or with anything for that matter. No one has been able to show me a single verse all day. Bishop and pastor are both Latin words that are not found in the Bible. What is translated into latin "Bishop" is, as you know is "Overseer" and, as you also know, the Elder and the Overseer are one and the same. What part of this do you dispute?

I have told you the facts as confirmed by Biblical scholarship. If you deny it, it's up to you to do the research which will confirm the truth of everything I said. I have long ago done that research. Your turn. I could show you, but my experience is that someone will not truly believe something until they see if for themselves.

 

[alvin]

What is strange about this discussion is that Baptists honor the Word of God as His Divine revelation to man yet...insist God has got it all wrong when it comes to who will shepherd His church. Paul set up Elder in all the churches and charged them with overseeing the church and shepherding the Church. Not some group of people who roam from church to church expecting to be supported by them, calling themselves the "true shepherds of the church."

 

[Thomas Helwys]

And yet again pastor means shepherd. What is hard about that to understand.

Don't confuse him with the facts, as you evidently also did by your earlier linguistic post about the word 'pastor'.

 

[alvin]

I have told you the facts as confirmed by Biblical scholarship. If you deny it, it's up to you to do the research which will confirm the truth of everything I said. I have long ago done that research. Your turn. I could show you, but my experience is that someone will not truly believe something until they see if for themselves.

You have made your claims, I would like to see your rebuttal. This is a critical subject to the church. The Bible clearly says one thing, the pastors of the world say another. You choose whom you will believe. What do you fear. If all the pastors disappeared would the church disappear also? Pastors need churches, churches with Elders never need pastors and that is why Paul set them up with Elders.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What is strange about this discussion is that Baptists honor the Word of God as His Divine revelation to man yet...insist God has got it all wrong when it comes to who will shepherd His church. Paul set up Elder in all the churches and charged them with overseeing the church and shepherding the Church. Not some group of people who roam from church to church expecting to be supported by them, calling themselves the "true shepherds of the church."

This is not about paid leadership. You are conflating two separate issues.

What is strange is that a professed Baptist would be as legalistic as any Church of Christ about this matter, and as wrong.

For the record, I'm not against a plurality of elders, but any church which had such would also have a plurality of pastors, as these terms are synonymous.

 

[alvin]

Don't confuse him with the facts, as you evidently also did by your earlier linguistic post about the word 'pastor'.

Look at Ephesians 4:11 and show me a Greek word in there that means "pastor." None. The Greek word is shepherd. Why do you all of a sudden want to translate that word using Latin if not to falsy perpetuate the non biblical office of the pastor. IT says "and God gave some shepherds" and the Bible clearly identifies these shepherds as Elders!

 

[John of Japan]

Pastor and shepherd are the same thing.

You are exactly right. This thread is linguistically ignorant.

"pastor, -oris. m. a herd. esp. a shepherd." (Cassall's Latin Dictionary, p. 160, emphasis in original)

poimhn "shepherd" in any Greek lexicon

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, 4o years in the ministry. Why does this matter. Anyone who is honest with the Bible can see these simple truths.

Why does it matter? ( sounds like Hillary) It matters because the trials of the ministry are very real and discipleship can be very difficult even in this country. Some men labor in this country and in the foreign mission fields for years faithfully with no converts and no disciples. Only someone with experience could know the level of difficulties in doing this.

To so smuggly say that you reject what they say as an excuse that there is no one else in a particular mission field that is qualified to be an elder shows you do not understand the difficulties of shepherding a church and reaching people in foreign mission fields.

When these men (of which some are on this board) say that in their mission field there is no one who is qualified, then we need to show these faithful men at least an ounce of respect and trust that they are both being honest and know their own mission field. Of which you personally have no knowledge of.

I am greatly offended at your disrespect of these men on this board and their mission fields. You are talking about things you know nothing of and in doing so you show your lack of experience. Someone with 40 years of experience would never talk to these men in that manner. Someone with 40 years experience knows, because of his experience, the trial and difficulties. You have none of that knowledge.

I suggest you take a step back, apologize to these faithful men that you have disrespected and admit your true lack of experience and knowledge about ministry and their particular mission field.

That is what someone with 40 years experience would do. How about you?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You have made your claims, I would like to see your rebuttal. This is a critical subject to the church. The Bible clearly says one thing, the pastors of the world say another. You choose whom you will believe. What do you fear. If all the pastors disappeared would the church disappear also? Pastors need churches, churches with Elders never need pastors and that is why Paul set them up with Elders.

You saw my rebuttal. What I said is fact. I don't post theories unless I identify them as such. So, again, what I stated is an established and incontrovertible fact. If you doubt it, do your own research.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are exactly right. This thread is linguistically ignorant.

"pastor, -oris. m. a herd. esp. a shepherd." (Cassall's Latin Dictionary, p. 160, emphasis in original)

poimhn "shepherd" in any Greek lexicon

I already showed him that. Of course he smuggley dismissed it.

 

[alvin]

This is not about paid leadership. You are conflating two separate issues.

What is strange is that a professed Baptist would be as legalistic as any Church of Christ about this matter, and as wrong.

For the record, I'm not against a plurality of elders, but any church which had such would also have a plurality of pastors, as these terms are synonymous.

Where is the word pastor synonymous with Elder? That is like saying shepherding is an office like Elder is an office. No, look at I Peter 5, Acts 20...shepherding is not an office but what Elders do. Elders shepherd the church and non other.

 

[alvin]

You are exactly right. This thread is linguistically ignorant.

"pastor, -oris. m. a herd. esp. a shepherd." (Cassall's Latin Dictionary, p. 160, emphasis in original)

poimhn "shepherd" in any Greek lexicon

John you obviously covet the title pastor. It does not matter what a Latin term means, the point is that it is NOT in the Bible and certainly not an office. There is no office of a pastor anywhere to be found in the Bible. This is so simple that only those who have much to lose cannot see this. A pastor has removed the only office given by the Holy Spirit in the Bible and has taken it upon himself.

 

[Mexdeaf]

John you obviously covet the title pastor. It does not matter what a Latin term means, the point is that it is NOT in the Bible and certainly not an office. There is no office of a pastor anywhere to be found in the Bible. This is so simple that only those who have much to lose cannot see this. A pastor has removed the only office given by the Holy Spirit in the Bible and has taken it upon himself.

And you have removed the word "pastor" from your Bible and set up your idea of eldership as an idol.