Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Only for the calvinist BF only for the calvinist.
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 3
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Only for the calvinist BF only for the calvinist.
Unbelief is here being posited as a form of wrath, not as a teaching in regard to eternal predestination. As Paul says in Rom 9, God's callling is irrevocable, even though some of the Jews had "exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever to be praised." Rom 1:25.
But much more than this: (a section of the) Jews of that era are described as worse than Gentiles, as being a cause of God's name being blasphemed, just because they pretended to God's favor and passed judgement on the Gentiles, whilst committing the same sins as the Gentiles.
Rom 2:1 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."
Rom 2:17 "Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”"
IOW, hypocrisy writ large was the charge against the Jewish leaders, resulting in them being left in unbelief. This was a temporal judgement, and it wasn't irrevocable for all, as some (i.e. Nicodemus) did believe who were willing to repent.
They had once had that freewill ability, as Christ imputes it to the Jewish infants of that era. But, as adults, they had chosen satan, who was now their father, or at least, the father of the Jewish leaders. It was the degree and nature of their sins that precluded faith in Christ, in that rather than submit to Christ's teaching, they preferred their "the Jews are God's favorites" doctrinal deception, which made them incapable of seeing themselves as God saw them.
In respect of the Isaiah passage you quoted, the blinding and hardening of their hearts was the consequence of their exposure to the word of God as spoken by Isaiah. In Jesus day also, the word of God is cast as a judgement upon its rejection by the Jews. Similarly the word of God that came by Moses was a judgement on Pharaoh, for it resulted in him hardening his heart. So this teaches us that in respect of some kinds of very grave sin, the word of God comes only to prove, expose and judge sin, rather then induce men to repent.
This is the danger for anyone promoting Double Predestination. It is, conceivably, the "ultimate sin" as entailing such a hysterical delusion of the mind as to amount to a form of theological insanity - as if God has any interest in causing men to sin? No, but God does have a vested interest in judging sin.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
A person comes to Christ only because the Father causes him to come to Christ,
Thats what in essence Jn 6:44 is saying, Similar to Psalm 65:4
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Its a Covenant Blessing Ezk 36:27
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The drawing of the Father in Jn 6:44 is His causing His Chosen People to believe in Christ ! 14
Thats what in essence Jn 6:44 is saying, Similar to Psalm 65:4
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Its a Covenant Blessing Ezk 36:27
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The drawing of the Father in Jn 6:44 is His causing His Chosen People to believe in Christ ! 14
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
They didnt, that would contradict Jn 6:44,65 These scriptures teach no man by nature has the freewill ability to believe in Christ
Your proposition:
1. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" reworded as "If a man comes to Christ (P), the Father has drawn him."
2. The pharisees didn't come to Christ (not P).
==>3. The Father "never" drew the pharisees to Christ. (Q)
is false, involving a logical fallacy called "Denying the Antecedent." "Denying the antecedent is the error of assuming that if the initial condition (P) is not met, the expected result (Q) won’t occur either."
Romans 9:4,5 makes it clear that the Pharisees were drawn to Christ in the same way as every other Jew: "....my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel: theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah."
Something intervened to make God reject & judge the pharisee over and above other Jews, which was the pharisees' decision to "pursue the law, not by faith but as if it were by works" (Rom 9:32) and "[in seeking to establish their own righeousness], they did not submit to God’s righteousness." Rom 10:3.
In addition, you throw in "by nature" into your equation, but "by nature" isn't theologically relevant, as (a) man is comprised of both mind and flesh, and when referring to matters of faith, only the mind is relevant, in that the flesh "counts for nothing," such that there is no argument to be made for linking "free will" to nature which is theologically spurious; (b) since Moses, God had already enabled the Jews with sufficient free will to choose God & Christ, and no distinction can be re calling, as between believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. For as Jesus said in Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
However, if your only point is to say that "no-one can come to Christ unless called," then I couldn't dissent from it, but I would dissent from your interpretation of "called" as limited to the elect. Per Paul (as above) and per Christ (as above), "calling" is not limited to the elect.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Man cannot by His own freewill come to Jesus Christ or believe on Him for Salvation. Its all of God to cause the man or women to believe in Christ Jn 6:44. God must draw the person, or cause the person to believe in Christ, for its written Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Thats part of the drawing, to be given to believe on Him. Its given not on behalf of mans freewill, but on behalf of Christ. Also in the drawing, the causing to believe in Christ certain spiritual blessings are given #1 Spiritual eyes will be open to see Christ spiritually Jn 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
#2 Will be given spiritual ears to hear His voice. Men naturally are spiritually dead and deaf and cannot hear with understanding Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
In believing in Christ via the Gospel it requires some spiritual understanding Matt 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Naturally man doesnt have this understanding Rom 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
And this word understandeth is the same greek word for understand in Mat 13:23. Now in drawing to Christ its given to see Him Spiritually and hear Him spiritually with spiritual understanding.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Thats part of the drawing, to be given to believe on Him. Its given not on behalf of mans freewill, but on behalf of Christ. Also in the drawing, the causing to believe in Christ certain spiritual blessings are given #1 Spiritual eyes will be open to see Christ spiritually Jn 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
#2 Will be given spiritual ears to hear His voice. Men naturally are spiritually dead and deaf and cannot hear with understanding Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
In believing in Christ via the Gospel it requires some spiritual understanding Matt 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Naturally man doesnt have this understanding Rom 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
And this word understandeth is the same greek word for understand in Mat 13:23. Now in drawing to Christ its given to see Him Spiritually and hear Him spiritually with spiritual understanding.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats Christs statement
And it's not in dispute. What's in dispute is your Calvinistic conclusion denying free will. Au contraire: Christ's statement is predicated on the exercise of free will by men, which you repudiate. For it is you who charge God with not showing mercy, independently of the exercise of free will by men.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Man doesnt have freewill to come to Christ, which means to believe in Him. Now according to Jn 6:44 if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ ? Yes or No
37818
Well-Known Member
John 6:45, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Man doesnt have freewill to come to Christ, which means to believe in Him. Now according to Jn 6:44 if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Problem for the anti-biblical crowd is that since God draws all people to Himself then those that hear and learn will come to the Son.
oh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
So while all are drawn only those that have heard and learned/believe will come to Jesus.
What always surprises me is how much the anti-biblical crowd will deny clear scripture but will defend to the hilt a pagan philosophy from the 4th century.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ?
37818
Well-Known Member
John 6:44-45, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Which you seem not to fully hear.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ?
The condition for the Father drawing is given in Jn 6:45. If one is willing to listen to the Father, then he will draw you to Christ.
Jn 6:45 "It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
Seems simple, because it is simple. Just being willing to hear the Father (as opposed to anyone who is not the Father) is sufficient.
37818
Well-Known Member
Do you deny, 'And they shall be all taught of God.'? [Romans 10:17-18.]
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ ? Yes or No
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesn't draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ? Yes or no