No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

No man can come to Christ by his own freewill ability because by nature hes dead in trespasses and sins and without spiritual life and ability to do or act. So consequently he cant come and believe on Christ of himself, or of his own freewill.

 

[Silverhair]

That is a rather strange bit of logic there BF. When the bible holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

But according to you man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

 

[JonC]

Wait....are we saying people come to Christ against their will?

 

[Brightfame52]

That is a rather strange bit of logic there BF. When the bible holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

But according to you man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

Man is a slave to sin and still responsible or his sinning.

 

[Van]

Yet another obscene thread, pushing utter nonsense!


What does it mean "no person can come to Christ?" Does the OP poster know? Of course not. On and On, folks, false claim on top of misrepresentation.


1) No person can seek God or put their trust in Christ because of "Total Spiritual Inability." That claim is utter nonsense.


2) No person can cause his or her transfer into Christ? That claim is true.


3) No person can seek God or put their trust in Christ unless God allows. That claim is true. If God chooses to harden a person's heart, they cannot believe.


4) John 5:40 says those who chose not to come to Jesus were "unwilling" not "unable." Again and again, one false claim after another.

5) Psalm 110:3 is none germane, other that it indicates people will willingly serve in David's army, thus serving the Lord's anointed!

 

[Dave G]

Wait....are we saying people come to Christ against their will?

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )

 

[Silverhair]

Man is a slave to sin and still responsible or his sinning.

Man is a slave to sin but that does not preclude him being able to hear, understand and respond to the gospel message. That is just the C/R view that was brought into the church in the 4th century.

And yes man is responsible for his sinning and will be judged for it.

But your philosophy says man has no free will so how can he choose to sin. All the actions must have been determined by God so you have made God responsible for the sin man commits. You do have a strange religion there BF.

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )

Joh_6:65 tells us that not all will be allowed/permitted to come to God. Joh_6:64 tells why. They did not believe but the question is what did they not believe? We need to look back to Joh_6:53-63 for the answer.

Man is a slave to sin and has no freewill ability to come to Christ and believe in Him. Thats what this thread is about.

Yes I know BF and that is what I commented on. Your C/R view is that man has no ability to come to Christ as he has no free will. The bible disagree with your view.

Do you not agree that God is sovereign? Is there anything that is logically possible and that fits His character He cannot do?

We see in scripture that man can and many times does choose to reject God, a free will exercise, but we also see that man can choose to trust in Christ, again free will. You make an unsupported comment and do you then expect not to be challenged on it?

God has given every person a free will because it is His will that each individual exercise the right to believe in Christ or reject Christ. If God wanted robots, He would have created robots. But He didn’t want robots. He wants a family that loves Him. Apart from freedom of the will, love is impossible.

The bible is clear that only God can save and He has chosen to save those that freely have trusted in Him.

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 2

It seems that the only way those of the C/R view can support their view is to ignore context.

All you need to do is look back to Joh_6:53-64 for the answer.

Note His words in Joh 6:64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe" which shows that some did believe.

So we see that those that had believed were those that were given to Christ.

Okay so that's how it is, man in the beginning wasn't a slave to sin, but once he sinned in adam he died to whatever life and fellowship he had with God, and so he remains dead to God and a slave to sin, and still accountable to God for sinning.Mans only hope for restoration is Gods Sovereign elective purposes to be saved by grace.

Yes man is saved by the grace of God through faith. When he hears and responds to the gospel message in faith then God saves him.

You seem to think that being separated from God by your sin means that you cannot hear and believe but as you know the bible shows that they can. So the only reason that I can see for you denying what the bible says is that it would prove your philosophy wrong. So you continue to deny the clear word of God.

You ignoring context, this is in the context:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

It is obvious that you do not know what the word context means BF as you continue to ignore it.

You continue to cherry pick verses that you think support your view. For someone that claimed to preach you do not seem to understand God's word very well.

Man cant respond spiritually, for he is dead and a slave to sin, to disobedience. Man by nature are children of disobedience/unbelief Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word disobedience is the greek word apeitheia:

1. obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

So man naturally man doesnt have Faith, just unbelief, he cant freewill himself out of his nature


ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.

The word is translated unbelief here Heb 4:6,11

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So you just ignore the verses you do not like.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Man can and is expected to make real choices. Those that trust in Christ will be saved. Those that reject Him will be lost.

What you have posted does not disprove the reality of a free will ability to respond to the gospel message.

Here is what is within the context:

You ignoring context, this is in the context:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

If that is what you think context means then it is no wonder why you have such a strange understanding of the word of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 2

Man is a slave to sin but that does not preclude him being able to hear, understand and respond to the gospel message. That is just the C/R view that was brought into the church in the 4th century.

And yes man is responsible for his sinning and will be judged for it.

But your philosophy says man has no free will so how can he choose to sin. All the actions must have been determined by God so you have made God responsible for the sin man commits. You do have a strange religion there BF.

Man is a slave to sin and has no freewill ability to come to Christ and believe in Him. Thats what this thread is about.

Yes I know BF and that is what I commented on. Your C/R view is that man has no ability to come to Christ as he has no free will. The bible disagree with your view.

Do you not agree that God is sovereign? Is there anything that is logically possible and that fits His character He cannot do?

We see in scripture that man can and many times does choose to reject God, a free will exercise, but we also see that man can choose to trust in Christ, again free will. You make an unsupported comment and do you then expect not to be challenged on it?

God has given every person a free will because it is His will that each individual exercise the right to believe in Christ or reject Christ. If God wanted robots, He would have created robots. But He didn’t want robots. He wants a family that loves Him. Apart from freedom of the will, love is impossible.

The bible is clear that only God can save and He has chosen to save those that freely have trusted in Him.

Okay so that's how it is, man in the beginning wasn't a slave to sin, but once he sinned in adam he died to whatever life and fellowship he had with God, and so he remains dead to God and a slave to sin, and still accountable to God for sinning.Mans only hope for restoration is Gods Sovereign elective purposes to be saved by grace.

It seems that the only way those of the C/R view can support their view is to ignore context.

All you need to do is look back to Joh_6:53-64 for the answer.

Note His words in Joh 6:64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe" which shows that some did believe.

So we see that those that had believed were those that were given to Christ.

You ignoring context, this is in the context:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Yes man is saved by the grace of God through faith. When he hears and responds to the gospel message in faith then God saves him.

You seem to think that being separated from God by your sin means that you cannot hear and believe but as you know the bible shows that they can. So the only reason that I can see for you denying what the bible says is that it would prove your philosophy wrong. So you continue to deny the clear word of God.

Man cant respond spiritually, for he is dead and a slave to sin, to disobedience. Man by nature are children of disobedience/unbelief Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word disobedience is the greek word apeitheia:

1. obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

So man naturally man doesnt have Faith, just unbelief, he cant freewill himself out of his nature


ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.

The word is translated unbelief here Heb 4:6,11

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is obvious that you do not know what the word context means BF as you continue to ignore it.

You continue to cherry pick verses that you think support your view. For someone that claimed to preach you do not seem to understand God's word very well.

Here is what is within the context:

You ignoring context, this is in the context:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

By nature we neither the will/desire or the ability to come to Christ in Spiritual matters Jn 5:40,6:44

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If God the Holy Spirit does not effectually call a man to Christ, he never will nor can come !​

 

[JonC]

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )

Yes, I know that our coming was given by the Father.

BUT the OP is not discussing that, it is instead discussing our will.

My question is whether we are saved against our will.


Personally, I believe that nobody is saved unless they are willing. This is a work of God, BUT God is capable of this work (He does not have to resort to forcing oeople to be saved against their will in order to get numbers, but is capable of changing hearts so that we willingly repent and believe).

In other words, I believe God draws men to Himself rather than drags them unwillingly.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

My question is whether we are saved against our will.

No because its the new regenerated man being drawn, and he or she is made will in the day of Gods drawing power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The drawing isnt external, but an inward power at work. The word draw in its metaphorical meaning is meant, its the word helkō:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So at this point God the Spirit is in you leading and impeling you, thats the New Birth.

 

[atpollard]

so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

Romans 9:14-24 [ESV]
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul anticipated your objection.



Ezekiel 33:20 [NKJV] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways."

God has no need to condemn men for what they cannot do, we stand condemned by what we freely chose to do in our fallen nature.

John 3:18-20 [NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

 

[Paleouss]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

Greetings to you brother. I see you have been busy in your studies, as have I.

I, myself, would like to be a little more precise here so I don't drift off into an unwarranted and unbiblical position.

1. "No man can come to me" (John 6:44).

Now if we just leave it at that one might conclude that no one comes to the father...but it goes on.

2. "except" (John 6:44)

This is a turn and now is going to assert that a man does come to the father but only if the first condition is this....

3. "the Father which sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

So I'll rewrite the verse... Men come to me but only after God draws them.

Now, in regard to free will. It is not clear to me that this is a defeater. It can be claimed, as even Calvinist claim, that after God draws those to Him...they freely come. Hence, even most Calvinist claim a freedom of the will. The debate would then, and should be anyway, about what is 'freedom' or what is 'willingness'? What condition must be present to have a coherent definition of 'freedom' and 'willingness' (most Calvinist consult Johnathan Edwards for this answer).

I think simply asserting that there is no free will misses the epicenter of the true debate. For again, even Calvinist claim that the elect don't get dragged in kicking and screaming. They claim they come freely, willingly. Even if grace might be said to be irresistible.

So I don't think this is a verse that shows that there is no freedom to come to God. It is only solid ground to assert that the first condition must be 'being drawn by God'.

Grace, peace and hope to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

By nature we neither the will/desire or the ability to come to Christ in Spiritual matters Jn 5:40,6:44

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If God the Holy Spirit does not effectually call a man to Christ, he never will nor can come !​

BF because you continue to ignore context you continue to read into the verses what you need to find.

Man has the God given ability to hear and respond to the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts all men and Christ draws all men.

Those that trust in Him are saved those the reject Him are lost.

By your logic there was no need for the cross or the preaching of the gospel.

Romans 9:14-24 [ESV]
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul anticipated your objection.



Ezekiel 33:20 [NKJV] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways."

God has no need to condemn men for what they cannot do, we stand condemned by what we freely chose to do in our fallen nature.

John 3:18-20 [NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

@atpollard I have to ask why calvinists run to those verses all the time to prove God's right to choose. You do realize that Paul is answering a Jew who could not understand why the gentiles could be saved and Jews could be condemned.

So God is not arbitrary but is just in His choices. We see this all through the bible.

Rom 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Rom 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Since God holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

But according to the C/R view man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

So the verses you quoted do not address the question.

You then quote Eze 33:20 which actually undercuts the C/R view as it shows God judging mans choices.

Just as your quote of Joh 3:18-20 shows man being judge for their choices.

Those that freely chose to trust were not condemned "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" those that freely chose to reject were condemned "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed".
Some men will freely reject the light others will freely come to the light.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard I have to ask why calvinists run to those verses all the time to prove God's right to choose. You do realize that Paul is answering a Jew who could not understand why the gentiles could be saved and Jews could be condemned.

So God is not arbitrary but is just in His choices. We see this all through the bible.

Respectfully, we disagree on the purpose and audience for Romans, so little will be gained by debating that question. Better to "agree to disagree" and move on (thus I ignored your quoted texts from Romans as we have no common hermaneutic to discuss them from).

Since God holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

"Free will" requires some clarification. Can a leopard change his spots? There is no physical barrier to living a sinless life ... certainly it is not like God has commanded men to walk on water or flap our arms and fly to the moon (those are physically impossible actions). Yet everyone without exception seems to have no difficulty "missing the mark" and falling into sin unaided by any supernatural work of God. To me, this seems to say SOMETHING about our "free will". Perhaps we need to entertain the possibility that our free will is also "fallen" and draws us AWAY from God rather than towards God.

A lion is physically capable of grazing as an herbivore, but it is in his nature to kill and eat meat. Mankind is free to obey God and pursue him, but it is in our nature to sin and HIDE FROM God (as Adam did).

But according to the C/R view man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

I cannot speak for all C/R views (I am not the C/R Pope), but from where I sit, it would be more accurate to say that "man will not do so, ever, in human nature" and that a Holy God does not condemn men for what they will not do (repent) but for what they do as they freely follow human nature (we sin/rebel).

So the verses you quoted do not address the question.

They did, but we disagree on their meaning on a fundamental level ... so "agree to disagree".

You then quote Eze 33:20 which actually undercuts the C/R view as it shows God judging mans choices.

Yes, as I said, God judges man for what man does (man freely sins). However, the point I had hoped to draw your attention to was the "cry" that "God is not fair" is actually an old complaint of men towards God that has been addressed in the OT and NT.

Just as your quote of Joh 3:18-20 shows man being judge for their choices.

Just a nit to pick, but John 3 shows all men who sin and have not yet believed as being ALREADY JUDGED (past and not future tense) and it shows that unbelieving men WILL NOT COME TO GOD (and it says why). All of that has to do with man's free and sinful nature naturally rejecting God and fleeing and hiding from God. It explains WHY John 6:44 is true ... why the father MUST draw if men are to come to the Son.

Those that freely chose to trust were not condemned "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" those that freely chose to reject were condemned "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed".
Some men will freely reject the light others will freely come to the light.

"Whosoever believes" is a statement of fact, not a claim of human agency in the salvation process. It simply distinguishes the two classes of people in John 3:18 ... "believes" vs "not believe". The "judgement" (John 3:19-21) lays the power of unbelief at the feet of human nature ... it is what sinful men do (and all men sin) ... and "belief" as a work "wrought in God" (not in Human nature, free will, or self-agency).

 

[Brightfame52]

Greetings to you brother. I see you have been busy in your studies, as have I.

I, myself, would like to be a little more precise here so I don't drift off into an unwarranted and unbiblical position.

1. "No man can come to me" (John 6:44).

Now if we just leave it at that one might conclude that no one comes to the father...but it goes on.

2. "except" (John 6:44)

This is a turn and now is going to assert that a man does come to the father but only if the first condition is this....

3. "the Father which sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

So I'll rewrite the verse... Men come to me but only after God draws them.

Now, in regard to free will. It is not clear to me that this is a defeater. It can be claimed, as even Calvinist claim, that after God draws those to Him...they freely come. Hence, even most Calvinist claim a freedom of the will. The debate would then, and should be anyway, about what is 'freedom' or what is 'willingness'? What condition must be present to have a coherent definition of 'freedom' and 'willingness' (most Calvinist consult Johnathan Edwards for this answer).

I think simply asserting that there is no free will misses the epicenter of the true debate. For again, even Calvinist claim that the elect don't get dragged in kicking and screaming. They claim they come freely, willingly. Even if grace might be said to be irresistible.

So I don't think this is a verse that shows that there is no freedom to come to God. It is only solid ground to assert that the first condition must be 'being drawn by God'.

Grace, peace and hope to you brother

They have a will to come after they are saved. Drawing them and saving them are one and the same. Its the New Heart man thats being drawn Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Their coming is above their natural faculties and abilities.

BF because you continue to ignore context you continue to read into the verses what you need to find.

Man has the God given ability to hear and respond to the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts all men and Christ draws all men.

Those that trust in Him are saved those the reject Him are lost.

By your logic there was no need for the cross or the preaching of the gospel.

Its you ignoring whats in the context.

 

[Silverhair]

"Free will" requires some clarification. Can a leopard change his spots? There is no physical barrier to living a sinless life ... certainly it is not like God has commanded men to walk on water or flap our arms and fly to the moon (those are physically impossible actions). Yet everyone without exception seems to have no difficulty "missing the mark" and falling into sin unaided by any supernatural work of God. To me, this seems to say SOMETHING about our "free will". Perhaps we need to entertain the possibility that our free will is also "fallen" and draws us AWAY from God rather than towards God.

I cannot speak for all C/R views (I am not the C/R Pope), but from where I sit, it would be more accurate to say that "man will not do so, ever, in human nature" and that a Holy God does not condemn men for what they will not do (repent) but for what they do as they freely follow human nature (we sin/rebel).

Yes, as I said, God judges man for what man does (man freely sins). However, the point I had hoped to draw your attention to was the "cry" that "God is not fair" is actually an old complaint of men towards God that has been addressed in the OT and NT.

Yes and man can freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. Asking why God is not fair is a silly question. The question we have to address is, is God just? The bible tells us He is. So if man has not ability to choose to trust in Christ, as those of the C/R view continue too say, then how it God being just to condemn them.

Free will is the ability to make choices.

Just a nit to pick, but John 3 shows all men who sin and have not yet believed as being ALREADY JUDGED (past and not future tense) and it shows that unbelieving men WILL NOT COME TO GOD (and it says why). All of that has to do with man's free and sinful nature naturally rejecting God and fleeing and hiding from God. It explains WHY John 6:44 is true ... why the father MUST draw if men are to come to the Son.

Not to nit pick but did you notice why they were judged "whoever does not believe has already been condemned," Notice they were judged because they did not believe just as those the believe are not condemned. Free will in either case.

I have to ask why would you think those that do not believe in Christ would come to Christ? The bible is clear that those that have believed are the ones that come to Christ.

I have said many times that God draws all men Joh 12:32 and He uses various means to do so. Creation, conviction of sins, the gospel message etc. That is why man has no excuse. But we also know that man can and does freely respond to the gospel message.

"Whosoever believes" is a statement of fact, not a claim of human agency in the salvation process. It simply distinguishes the two classes of people in John 3:18 ... "believes" vs "not believe". The "judgement" (John 3:19-21) lays the power of unbelief at the feet of human nature ... it is what sinful men do (and all men sin) ... and "belief" as a work "wrought in God" (not in Human nature, free will, or self-agency).

Yes it is a fact that whoever believes will be saved. But believing is an action of the person done freely.

Why are the people condemned in Joh 3:18 "because he has not believed [V-RAI-3S] in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
Person: Third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

That is a choice freely made.

Why are people not condemned in Joh 3:18 "He who believes [V-PAP-NSM] in Him is not condemned"

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

That is a choice freely made.

Note in both cases, believing or not believing, is in the active voice

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

 

[atpollard]

So if man has not ability to choose to trust in Christ, as those of the C/R view continue too say, then how it God being just to condemn them.

God OWES nobody "grace". Justice only requires that everyone who is punished must be GUILTY of the sins for which they are being punished. Is there anyone condemned to HELL that did not violate God's standard ... the Law which condemns?

You really ARE complaining "God is not fair" rather than "God is not Just" in granting mercy to some and not granting mercy to all. There is no "justice" in "mercy", in fact "mercy" is completely "unjust" (we did not receive the justice that we deserved).

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Right, so if God saved you because you performed an action, that's salvation by your works. Thats condemned by scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

God OWES nobody "grace". Justice only requires that everyone who is punished must be GUILTY of the sins for which they are being punished. Is there anyone condemned to HELL that did not violate God's standard ... the Law which condemns?

You really ARE complaining "God is not fair" rather than "God is not Just" in granting mercy to some and not granting mercy to all. There is no "justice" in "mercy", in fact "mercy" is completely "unjust" (we did not receive the justice that we deserved).

IF God just left all of us alone to make our own "free will decisions", then all of us would be choosing hell over Heaven, as we would rather keep playing God than submitting to God

 

[atpollard]

Why are the people condemned in Joh 3:18 "because he has not believed [V-RAI-3S] in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
Person: Third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

That is a choice freely made.

Why are people not condemned in Joh 3:18 "He who believes [V-PAP-NSM] in Him is not condemned"

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

That is a choice freely made.

Note in both cases, believing or not believing, is in the active voice

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

I disagree with your conclusion.

I claim "They believed/disbelieved irrespective of source."
You claim "They believed/disbelieved by the power of their free will exclusively."

There will be no moving our entrenched positions, so we are best served by simply disagreeing about what it says.