No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Silverhair]

Here is what is within the context:

You ignoring context, this is in the context:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

If that is what you think context means then it is no wonder why you have such a strange understanding of the word of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

By nature we neither the will/desire or the ability to come to Christ in Spiritual matters Jn 5:40,6:44

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If God the Holy Spirit does not effectually call a man to Christ, he never will nor can come !​

 

[JonC]

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )

Yes, I know that our coming was given by the Father.

BUT the OP is not discussing that, it is instead discussing our will.

My question is whether we are saved against our will.


Personally, I believe that nobody is saved unless they are willing. This is a work of God, BUT God is capable of this work (He does not have to resort to forcing oeople to be saved against their will in order to get numbers, but is capable of changing hearts so that we willingly repent and believe).

In other words, I believe God draws men to Himself rather than drags them unwillingly.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

My question is whether we are saved against our will.

No because its the new regenerated man being drawn, and he or she is made will in the day of Gods drawing power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The drawing isnt external, but an inward power at work. The word draw in its metaphorical meaning is meant, its the word helkō:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So at this point God the Spirit is in you leading and impeling you, thats the New Birth.

 

[atpollard]

so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

Romans 9:14-24 [ESV]
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul anticipated your objection.



Ezekiel 33:20 [NKJV] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways."

God has no need to condemn men for what they cannot do, we stand condemned by what we freely chose to do in our fallen nature.

John 3:18-20 [NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

 

[Paleouss]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

Greetings to you brother. I see you have been busy in your studies, as have I.

I, myself, would like to be a little more precise here so I don't drift off into an unwarranted and unbiblical position.

1. "No man can come to me" (John 6:44).

Now if we just leave it at that one might conclude that no one comes to the father...but it goes on.

2. "except" (John 6:44)

This is a turn and now is going to assert that a man does come to the father but only if the first condition is this....

3. "the Father which sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

So I'll rewrite the verse... Men come to me but only after God draws them.

Now, in regard to free will. It is not clear to me that this is a defeater. It can be claimed, as even Calvinist claim, that after God draws those to Him...they freely come. Hence, even most Calvinist claim a freedom of the will. The debate would then, and should be anyway, about what is 'freedom' or what is 'willingness'? What condition must be present to have a coherent definition of 'freedom' and 'willingness' (most Calvinist consult Johnathan Edwards for this answer).

I think simply asserting that there is no free will misses the epicenter of the true debate. For again, even Calvinist claim that the elect don't get dragged in kicking and screaming. They claim they come freely, willingly. Even if grace might be said to be irresistible.

So I don't think this is a verse that shows that there is no freedom to come to God. It is only solid ground to assert that the first condition must be 'being drawn by God'.

Grace, peace and hope to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

By nature we neither the will/desire or the ability to come to Christ in Spiritual matters Jn 5:40,6:44

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If God the Holy Spirit does not effectually call a man to Christ, he never will nor can come !​

BF because you continue to ignore context you continue to read into the verses what you need to find.

Man has the God given ability to hear and respond to the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts all men and Christ draws all men.

Those that trust in Him are saved those the reject Him are lost.

By your logic there was no need for the cross or the preaching of the gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:14-24 [ESV]
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul anticipated your objection.



Ezekiel 33:20 [NKJV] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways."

God has no need to condemn men for what they cannot do, we stand condemned by what we freely chose to do in our fallen nature.

John 3:18-20 [NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

@atpollard I have to ask why calvinists run to those verses all the time to prove God's right to choose. You do realize that Paul is answering a Jew who could not understand why the gentiles could be saved and Jews could be condemned.

So God is not arbitrary but is just in His choices. We see this all through the bible.

Rom 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Rom 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Since God holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

But according to the C/R view man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

So the verses you quoted do not address the question.

You then quote Eze 33:20 which actually undercuts the C/R view as it shows God judging mans choices.

Just as your quote of Joh 3:18-20 shows man being judge for their choices.

Those that freely chose to trust were not condemned "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" those that freely chose to reject were condemned "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed".
Some men will freely reject the light others will freely come to the light.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard I have to ask why calvinists run to those verses all the time to prove God's right to choose. You do realize that Paul is answering a Jew who could not understand why the gentiles could be saved and Jews could be condemned.

So God is not arbitrary but is just in His choices. We see this all through the bible.

Respectfully, we disagree on the purpose and audience for Romans, so little will be gained by debating that question. Better to "agree to disagree" and move on (thus I ignored your quoted texts from Romans as we have no common hermaneutic to discuss them from).

Since God holds man responsible for the choices he makes then logically he has the free will with which to make choices.

"Free will" requires some clarification. Can a leopard change his spots? There is no physical barrier to living a sinless life ... certainly it is not like God has commanded men to walk on water or flap our arms and fly to the moon (those are physically impossible actions). Yet everyone without exception seems to have no difficulty "missing the mark" and falling into sin unaided by any supernatural work of God. To me, this seems to say SOMETHING about our "free will". Perhaps we need to entertain the possibility that our free will is also "fallen" and draws us AWAY from God rather than towards God.

A lion is physically capable of grazing as an herbivore, but it is in his nature to kill and eat meat. Mankind is free to obey God and pursue him, but it is in our nature to sin and HIDE FROM God (as Adam did).

But according to the C/R view man cannot do that so the question is how is a Holy God just if He condemns man for not doing something he has no ability to do?

I cannot speak for all C/R views (I am not the C/R Pope), but from where I sit, it would be more accurate to say that "man will not do so, ever, in human nature" and that a Holy God does not condemn men for what they will not do (repent) but for what they do as they freely follow human nature (we sin/rebel).

So the verses you quoted do not address the question.

They did, but we disagree on their meaning on a fundamental level ... so "agree to disagree".

You then quote Eze 33:20 which actually undercuts the C/R view as it shows God judging mans choices.

Yes, as I said, God judges man for what man does (man freely sins). However, the point I had hoped to draw your attention to was the "cry" that "God is not fair" is actually an old complaint of men towards God that has been addressed in the OT and NT.

Just as your quote of Joh 3:18-20 shows man being judge for their choices.

Just a nit to pick, but John 3 shows all men who sin and have not yet believed as being ALREADY JUDGED (past and not future tense) and it shows that unbelieving men WILL NOT COME TO GOD (and it says why). All of that has to do with man's free and sinful nature naturally rejecting God and fleeing and hiding from God. It explains WHY John 6:44 is true ... why the father MUST draw if men are to come to the Son.

Those that freely chose to trust were not condemned "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" those that freely chose to reject were condemned "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed".
Some men will freely reject the light others will freely come to the light.

"Whosoever believes" is a statement of fact, not a claim of human agency in the salvation process. It simply distinguishes the two classes of people in John 3:18 ... "believes" vs "not believe". The "judgement" (John 3:19-21) lays the power of unbelief at the feet of human nature ... it is what sinful men do (and all men sin) ... and "belief" as a work "wrought in God" (not in Human nature, free will, or self-agency).

 

[Brightfame52]

Greetings to you brother. I see you have been busy in your studies, as have I.

I, myself, would like to be a little more precise here so I don't drift off into an unwarranted and unbiblical position.

1. "No man can come to me" (John 6:44).

Now if we just leave it at that one might conclude that no one comes to the father...but it goes on.

2. "except" (John 6:44)

This is a turn and now is going to assert that a man does come to the father but only if the first condition is this....

3. "the Father which sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

So I'll rewrite the verse... Men come to me but only after God draws them.

Now, in regard to free will. It is not clear to me that this is a defeater. It can be claimed, as even Calvinist claim, that after God draws those to Him...they freely come. Hence, even most Calvinist claim a freedom of the will. The debate would then, and should be anyway, about what is 'freedom' or what is 'willingness'? What condition must be present to have a coherent definition of 'freedom' and 'willingness' (most Calvinist consult Johnathan Edwards for this answer).

I think simply asserting that there is no free will misses the epicenter of the true debate. For again, even Calvinist claim that the elect don't get dragged in kicking and screaming. They claim they come freely, willingly. Even if grace might be said to be irresistible.

So I don't think this is a verse that shows that there is no freedom to come to God. It is only solid ground to assert that the first condition must be 'being drawn by God'.

Grace, peace and hope to you brother

They have a will to come after they are saved. Drawing them and saving them are one and the same. Its the New Heart man thats being drawn Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Their coming is above their natural faculties and abilities.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF because you continue to ignore context you continue to read into the verses what you need to find.

Man has the God given ability to hear and respond to the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts all men and Christ draws all men.

Those that trust in Him are saved those the reject Him are lost.

By your logic there was no need for the cross or the preaching of the gospel.

Its you ignoring whats in the context.

 

[Silverhair]

"Free will" requires some clarification. Can a leopard change his spots? There is no physical barrier to living a sinless life ... certainly it is not like God has commanded men to walk on water or flap our arms and fly to the moon (those are physically impossible actions). Yet everyone without exception seems to have no difficulty "missing the mark" and falling into sin unaided by any supernatural work of God. To me, this seems to say SOMETHING about our "free will". Perhaps we need to entertain the possibility that our free will is also "fallen" and draws us AWAY from God rather than towards God.

I cannot speak for all C/R views (I am not the C/R Pope), but from where I sit, it would be more accurate to say that "man will not do so, ever, in human nature" and that a Holy God does not condemn men for what they will not do (repent) but for what they do as they freely follow human nature (we sin/rebel).

Yes, as I said, God judges man for what man does (man freely sins). However, the point I had hoped to draw your attention to was the "cry" that "God is not fair" is actually an old complaint of men towards God that has been addressed in the OT and NT.

Yes and man can freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. Asking why God is not fair is a silly question. The question we have to address is, is God just? The bible tells us He is. So if man has not ability to choose to trust in Christ, as those of the C/R view continue too say, then how it God being just to condemn them.

Free will is the ability to make choices.

Just a nit to pick, but John 3 shows all men who sin and have not yet believed as being ALREADY JUDGED (past and not future tense) and it shows that unbelieving men WILL NOT COME TO GOD (and it says why). All of that has to do with man's free and sinful nature naturally rejecting God and fleeing and hiding from God. It explains WHY John 6:44 is true ... why the father MUST draw if men are to come to the Son.

Not to nit pick but did you notice why they were judged "whoever does not believe has already been condemned," Notice they were judged because they did not believe just as those the believe are not condemned. Free will in either case.

I have to ask why would you think those that do not believe in Christ would come to Christ? The bible is clear that those that have believed are the ones that come to Christ.

I have said many times that God draws all men Joh 12:32 and He uses various means to do so. Creation, conviction of sins, the gospel message etc. That is why man has no excuse. But we also know that man can and does freely respond to the gospel message.

"Whosoever believes" is a statement of fact, not a claim of human agency in the salvation process. It simply distinguishes the two classes of people in John 3:18 ... "believes" vs "not believe". The "judgement" (John 3:19-21) lays the power of unbelief at the feet of human nature ... it is what sinful men do (and all men sin) ... and "belief" as a work "wrought in God" (not in Human nature, free will, or self-agency).

Yes it is a fact that whoever believes will be saved. But believing is an action of the person done freely.

Why are the people condemned in Joh 3:18 "because he has not believed [V-RAI-3S] in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
Person: Third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

That is a choice freely made.

Why are people not condemned in Joh 3:18 "He who believes [V-PAP-NSM] in Him is not condemned"

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

That is a choice freely made.

Note in both cases, believing or not believing, is in the active voice

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

 

[atpollard]

So if man has not ability to choose to trust in Christ, as those of the C/R view continue too say, then how it God being just to condemn them.

God OWES nobody "grace". Justice only requires that everyone who is punished must be GUILTY of the sins for which they are being punished. Is there anyone condemned to HELL that did not violate God's standard ... the Law which condemns?

You really ARE complaining "God is not fair" rather than "God is not Just" in granting mercy to some and not granting mercy to all. There is no "justice" in "mercy", in fact "mercy" is completely "unjust" (we did not receive the justice that we deserved).

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Right, so if God saved you because you performed an action, that's salvation by your works. Thats condemned by scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

God OWES nobody "grace". Justice only requires that everyone who is punished must be GUILTY of the sins for which they are being punished. Is there anyone condemned to HELL that did not violate God's standard ... the Law which condemns?

You really ARE complaining "God is not fair" rather than "God is not Just" in granting mercy to some and not granting mercy to all. There is no "justice" in "mercy", in fact "mercy" is completely "unjust" (we did not receive the justice that we deserved).

IF God just left all of us alone to make our own "free will decisions", then all of us would be choosing hell over Heaven, as we would rather keep playing God than submitting to God

 

[atpollard]

Why are the people condemned in Joh 3:18 "because he has not believed [V-RAI-3S] in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
Person: Third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

That is a choice freely made.

Why are people not condemned in Joh 3:18 "He who believes [V-PAP-NSM] in Him is not condemned"

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

That is a choice freely made.

Note in both cases, believing or not believing, is in the active voice

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

I disagree with your conclusion.

I claim "They believed/disbelieved irrespective of source."
You claim "They believed/disbelieved by the power of their free will exclusively."

There will be no moving our entrenched positions, so we are best served by simply disagreeing about what it says.

 

[JonC]

@JonC



No because its the new regenerated man being drawn, and he or she is made will in the day of Gods drawing power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The drawing isnt external, but an inward power at work. The word draw in its metaphorical meaning is meant, its the word helkō:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So at this point God the Spirit is in you leading and impeling you, thats the New Birth.

My point is that we do turn to God of our will (God works in our life to change our will). Spurgeon had sn excellent sermon on this topic (can't recall the title).

The OP would be right if it were using "libertarian free-will" (a theoretical type of free-will).

 

[Brightfame52]

My point is that we do turn to God of our will (God works in our life to change our will). Spurgeon had sn excellent sermon on this topic (can't recall the title).

The OP would be right if it were using "libertarian free-will" (a theoretical type of free-will).

My point is yes, the spiritually alive person turns to God, He is working in the saved to will and to do of His good pleasure Phil 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

My point is that we do turn to God of our will (God works in our life to change our will). Spurgeon had sn excellent sermon on this topic (can't recall the title).

In fact, our turning is the result of already having been turned by God Jer 31:18

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

 

[Silverhair]

God OWES nobody "grace". Justice only requires that everyone who is punished must be GUILTY of the sins for which they are being punished. Is there anyone condemned to HELL that did not violate God's standard ... the Law which condemns?

You really ARE complaining "God is not fair" rather than "God is not Just" in granting mercy to some and not granting mercy to all. There is no "justice" in "mercy", in fact "mercy" is completely "unjust" (we did not receive the justice that we deserved).

You are right God does not owe anyone grace that is why it is so amazing. He shows His grace to even those that do not trust in Him. If it were not for His grace we would all have died before we ever had the chance to trust in Him. As you said we are all sinners condemned to hell for the sins we have committed.

God actually is fair as He has given everyone an equal chance to know Him. [Rom 1:18-20] He is also just as He does not condemn those that have no option but to sin as it would be under the C/R deterministic view. God condemns those that have chosen to reject Him whether through a passive or active denial.

He has shown mercy to those that deserve to be hell bound when they have freely trusted in His son. He did not have to save anyone, even those that have trusted in His son, but He is just in that He set the condition of salvation and will justify those that have met that condition. As we see clearly in this verse: "he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

So what we see is that God is just when He shows mercy to those that actually deserve condemnation.