BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I already addressed that with the obvious examples.
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- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
I already addressed that with the obvious examples.
Wouldn't everyone be lost then? You do sin don't you?
Well, actually you did not. Let's break it down then. Tell me what Lucifer and Adam had to be saved from before they fell?
You missed answering this question twice now...Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation?
When I do I lose COMPLETELY.
One day Steaver you are going to love GOD so much, You would rather get tortured FOREVER then to stop loving God for 1 second. An absolute unbreakable loyalty and dedication.
God might not mean that much worth to you now. But I'm hopeful. Your priorities are just off a tad.
Every soul on earth will mean that much to you too.
One Baptism
Active Member
I am a Seventh-day Adventist [after having been born into and raised Roman Catholic for 30 years, indoctrinated and deceived by the devil therein] for numerous reasons [all scriptural [KJB]], and because the evidence therein the Bible [KJB], that book of perfectly recorded history with eyewitnesss [and with prophecy in the carrying out, ie, the speaking of God in slow motion], in their word and in deed, show that YHVH Elohiym, Adam, Eve, Abel [and Cain also], Seth, ... Enoch ... Noah ... Shem ... Abraham ... Isaac ... Jacob/Israel ... Joseph ... Moses ... Aaron ... Joshua ... David ... Solomon ... every single True prophet of YHVH Elohiym, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, etc ... Joseph and Mary ... Jesus ... Peter, James, John, etc ... Paul, etc ... and all the true disciples/apostles, etc down through the ages, wandering in the wilderness, persecuted, worn and haggard were Seventh-day Adventists. Think about it.
Also, the other book of YHVH Elohiym, the book of nature itself testifies to the circaseptum [7 day cycle built into creation itself] rhythm, look it up.
Also, logic, I know that the everlasting God who is eternal Truth [truth and Love are both eternal, think about it], that the spiritual/moral aspect cannot change, thus the very foundation of YHVH Elohiym character [His Law, since the eternal Creator is ruler over all creation] governs all the Kingdom of Heaven and under Heaven. It is as eternal as YHVH is.
Also, history [similar to my first point] testifies, citing the true followers of Jesus, reveal that the 7th Day the Sabbath was kept from the beginning until this very day by a remnant in every era, and I can cite the historical record as such from the history book, the Bible [KJB], as well as other sources, such as Sozomen [5th Cent.] and Socrates Scholasticus [5th Cent.], I can cite even our enemies, such as the Roman Vatican's sources, as well as the multitudinous sources beyond them in the so-called protestant realm, and even secular sources, dictionaries, encyclopedias, and so on.
Also, from our enemies own testimonies and violent attacks upon it in both the spiritual and physical realms. Thus even our enemies having testified [as in a court of Law, human or Heavenly] to the Truth [for even devils must submit to it], thus is the great divide between truth and error, light and darkness, good and evil, rightesouness and sin seen and known by all, even yourself, as an inspired theologian and historian, Paul showed to the persons of Rome.
Also, the very fact of the 7 day week itself [and the utter failures of men's attempt to mess with this, like France's attempt at a 10 day week, etc], and it's necessary origin [being distinct in time keeping than all other apsects of time keeping, it is not calendated like the year through a motion of worlds, nor is it calculated by the lunar phases to describe a month, nor is it separated into 24 hours, and divded by 2 sets of 12 [as in the 24 elders of Heavenly, or the earthly 12 patriarchs, 12 apostles, etc], which is not found in anything of creation, but in a Creator's will.
Also, the number seven, in definition means to be complete, at rest, it came after 6, the number of man, the highest order of creation on earth, and before 8, the number of reconstruction/resurrection, because the rest and atonement that existed between Creator and creation, was broken by sin, and so according to promises which YHVH made, and cannot lie, thus was the beginning in perfection, and so too the perfect Saviour from sin dying for us because of sin, and so too the everlasting Life in the future world to come, wherein the 7 is memorial of creation and redemption - forever, a Holy day that cannot be altered by anything of creation.
As for the word Adventist, its very name strikes fear into the sinner [who does not want Jesus to return, and wants to live a little longer in sin, another moment, one more deceitful pleasure experienced], for it acknowledges boldly before all the world, that Jesus is not only returning soon, but in the very revelation of power and in glory. Advent. Think about what this word means to the true hearted Christian. Boom. Advent. No longer in far distant future, but now, here, present, even at hand, and at the doors, yea standing right before us all, knocking. No longer separation, on the level of Deity and of humanity. Death defeated, Eternal Life overcoming. United together forever, and every day that blessed hope burns within my own heart and in the hearts of all true believers.
The two words combined, encompass the whole of the Way, the Truth and the Life, which not only acknowledges who the True Creator is, but that we await [not in idleness, but in true active faith] to be reunited by a promise left unto us by that Creator, who accomplishes all things which begun to do, and works in and through us. Thus encompasses the whole of life, to live in holiness, no sin, right diet, right thinking, right speaking, right doing, always expecting, understanding what happens in death, and for the sinner, because of the future return, and promsies made of the new world to come, etc.
One Baptism
Active Member
You have a misunderstanding of salvation/redemption, for they deal with restoration to right relationship, yet they do not violate relationship [ie, you may leave at any time, while such time exists]. Thus Lucifer and Adam in the beginning were in right relationship, before sin. After sin, broken relationship. No longer in atonement with God. Salvation/Redemption restores the right relationship, but it is no forceful abduction [but it is a drawing, a wooing, a courting], nor is it inherently sustaining, for a right relationship and atonement requires both to freely give/receive. Nothing except one's own decision/s can break it. Though God has provided, he does not force any to partake. And God being God, can only accept that which is righteous. For those who do partake, he forces none to remain against themselves, and thus may choose to become cast away, or may choose through being tempted to accept another offer once again. Since God is Love, love to be love, by definition, must always be free. Sin does not arise a second time because there is a group of persons who have chosen [purposed continually in their hearts] to take God at His word, and to take up that which is offered through submitting to the perfect will of God.
Thus the danger of blaspheming the person of the Holy Ghost, which is the great sin. We grieve away, not in a single act [though there is a final act, see Lucifer, King Saul, etc], but in a continuing and increasing deafness [ending in a seared conscience, a forever hard rebellious heart] to entreaties and wooings thereof.
There is a time limit [sin brings forth death [as an expectant woman], though it is progeriatric, fleeting, limited, vanity, beginning from nothing and going to nothing], and a slowly closing window of opportunity to remain in salvation/redemption. God has provided the treasury of grace, but that probationary period may still yet be squandered away, given up, etc.
To board the ark, is not enough. One must stay with it the whole way through, and not jump ship. There is a massive divide between 'didn't' jump ship, and 'can't' jump ship.
It is revealed in the covenant of marriage. The relationship is a covenant relationship, just as the New Covenant is. Both say I do, but in differing ways. God says upon His part, I love you, I will work in you to restore you to perfection/atonement, if you allow it. We say, I will submit to this, in trust, hope, faith and love [even thanksgiving]. The marriage vow takes place in an instant, but it must also continue every moment, otherwise the vow ceases to be a vow, and becomes broken. A marriage may be strained by one or both parties [humanly speaking], but it doesn't mean that the marriage is instantly broken, but there exists grace, forgiveness, etc with in it in a true marriage. God is longsuffering, not willing that any perish, but obviously many will, not that they had to. Not a single person needs to remain lost, and not a single person needs to leave the relationship of salvation/redemption. Will some? Yes, even as like Lucifer and Eve and Adam chose another relationship outside of the vow.
It is a restored relationship.
There is also a judgment, which must take place before Jesus returns. This judgment evaluates the hearts of all professing peoples. It reveals whether or not the relationship lasted, or endured through it all [being tested], etc. It is not as if it is hidden to the one in right relationship.
One day Steaver you are going to love GOD so much, You would rather get tortured FOREVER then to stop loving God for 1 second. An absolute unbreakable loyalty and dedication.
God might not mean that much worth to you now. But I'm hopeful. Your priorities are just off a tad.
Every soul on earth will mean that much to you too.
Wow! Your a prophet of God also! I think I will just count on Jesus to do my judgment
I'll let him deal with the Pharisees.
I gather two things from this answer;
1. You don't believe you sin much, maybe even go months or years without a sin??
2. You COMPLETELY lose your salvation when you do sin, thus, you need to be born again all over again, again??
Is this correct? If not please unpack your answer...
Welcome! You have listed quite a bit of material to discuss so I will just go one point at a time so nothing gets lost in the conversation. I'm sure some of these points can be explained in pretty short order and then I will post your next point(s)
Would you say you were lost for those 30 years while being a RC?
Would you say you were lost for those 30 years while being a RC?
This is an interesting view. So you see salvation as a two way agreement between man and God. What is man's part, or in other words, what is it that you do to gain or keep your salvation with Christ?
First, I would very much agree, salvation is a relational issue. The problem, though, is when we compare the relationships of Adam and Satan with the relationship we have with God through Christ. Keep in mind that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and that we know when that process began...when The Son of God manifested in flesh and dwelt among men. It was then that men were given the power to become sons of God, and it is then when they began to be born of God, not through their will, but born of God by the very will of God.
Thus it is gross error to equate relationships preceding that time when God began reconciling men unto Himself through Christ. When we try to equate the born again believer with Adam, and worse, with Satan, and imply they can "leave at any time" it shows a complete lack of Biblical understanding.
It was in fact Adam that created the separation between God and man, and we can say Satan himself played his part as well. The "relationship" between both and God are not to be compared to our being immersed into God in Eternal Union. If you consult the teachings of Christ you will find that there was a pretty important event that could only take place after He returned to heaven, and that is the sending of the Comforter, Who performs a ministry unique to this Age, whereby He reveals the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was not revealed to men in past Ages. Thus we do not have either Adam or Satan, or for that matter, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, or a single Disciple of Christ (during His earthly Ministry) turning to Christ in saving faith, because...
...the Gospel had not yet been revealed to them.
I agree with this statement 100%.
Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God. It is He that intervenes in the life of the natural man and enlightens him to the truth of the Gospel. He has always been the source of light/truth in the lives of men.
Not sure why one would come to such an heretical conclusion...we are born again unto a living hope by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Not by deciding we are going to enter into relationship with God. That is religion, and as you said, salvation is a relational issue. We are also kept by the power of God. He will finish the work He has begun in us. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Satan said "I will..."
So did God: "I will cleanse you of your idols, I will give you a new heart and remove that hard heart from you, I will give you a new spirit.
And "...I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and to keep my judgments."
All these things are effected by God, not man.
So we can say, "Well, Lord Jesus, I appreciate the promises, but you know I have decided that you must forsake me..."?
That kind of religion replaces being kept by the power of God to being kept by one's own power.
Agreed for the most part, however, we do see a great example of men being forced to do the will of God. Jonah, for example, But a better example that is more fitting for a New Covenant example is Paul the Apostle. Did Paul choose to meet with the Lord on that road? Seems I remember Paul had different plans for that day...
That is completely contrary to the very Gospel, my friend. The fact is that there is none that are righteous, no...
...not even one.
That is why Christ died in your stead. Because there was no hope of righteousness in one who was a natural man (and that was all of us) to be righteous. The fact is that every man and woman will fail to carry out the will of God, and will sin, and will thus bring upon themselves the penalty for sin...
...which is death.
I don't think you properly understand partaking. We do not partake, we are in fact immersed into God. And as far as Christians sinning, well, we understand that the penalty for sin has and always will be death. For the Christian that sins without repentance their physical lives may be taken, such as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira, or those who were partaking of Communion (a memorial, not to be confused with the realities of Christ's Sacrifice) unworthily.
And the idea of "multiple salvations" has no Biblical basis whatsoever. When men are immersed into God through reconciliation of the Cross of Christ...that's it. There is a change of that person because they are spiritually resurrected from the death they were born into. You see, no man is born having the life of Christ, and that is the remedy for man's fallen condition.
So why is it that you are teaching the complete opposite? According to your soteriology, love is not free...it must be earned.
Do you mean to say that there is a group of people, in the physical realm...who do not sin? Do you feel you have perfectly submitted to the will of God? I would take issue with that on at least one basis...you are misrepresenting the very will of God as expressed by God in Holy Scripture.
That, my friend, is grievous sin, and warned about many times in Scripture.
Let me ask you this: are you a born again believer, and if so, how did you come to be born again, and what does it mean to be born again?
God bless.
1. If I was sin free I'd be in heaven right now. Death is not the door to heaven.
2.
You think the worst consequence is suffering eternally. Its not, SIN itself is the problem.
Between now and heaven sinning will sound MORE INSANE then smashing your hand with a hammer for FUN.
One is not going to understand that since they cheapen the value of the good work of loving GOD.
Folks even make GOOD WORKS like LOVING GOD out to be some kind of chore for something "greater".
Fixated on an idolatry of self-pleasure and the idolatry of salvation.
How about you answer my question.
How much is loving God worth to you again?
Steaver... You posed a lot of questions so here is my thoughts... I started thinking about God at the age of seven and joined the Baptist Church at the age of twenty-two after a near death experience in Vietnam... Anyone on here that says God can lose one of his grace wrought, blood bought, beloved children, does not know MY GOD!... WE ALL SIN!... WE ALL NEED A SAVIOUR!... Everyday!... Salvation is not only Eternal, it is daily!... It is not to keep our Eternal Salvation that we might lose it but to keep the Joy of it we already have... You want to know how secure you all are... To get to one of Gods precious token of redeeming grace you have to overthrow THE GODHEAD!... It's been tried before and SATAN LOST!... I'm now seventy-one, and next month I'll be three score, ten and two... I played by your rules and didn't quote any scripture... Oh but I wanted too... Missed you Steaver... Where have you been?... Brother Glen
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
Or:
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
[At the words that follow up to and including "and became man," all bow.]
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy,
catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
But you said when you sin you lose your salvation COMPLETELY (your emphasis, not mine). So explain yourself if as you say, you are not sin free????
Not sure your making any sense here. Sin equals suffering, both now and eternally.
How do they cheapen it?
We find some agreement
Loving God and doing His works are joyful for the born of God. Doing God's works is loving God. But Jesus gave a command for those good works towards God having any eternal value towards their eternal life, they must be accompanied through faith in the Son of God. It is worth surrendering my life to His Son Jesus Christ as God has commanded for remission of sins and allowing Him to do His work in and through me.
The question for you is, how does your sin, which you admit you have, cause you to COMPLETELY lose your salvation??
One Baptism
Active Member
My lostness [then] had not so much its base/foundation in the false antichristian religion of Romanism [for I know even those that are/were in that system, that walk/ed according to the light that they have/had, and will be in the kingdom, by God's mercy in Christ Jesus and His shed blood, and while they are in error by doctrine, their deeds show the gospel glimmer in their heart, though they have/had not its fullness of light], but in my flesh, my carnal nature which was at enmity to God and His Law. My lostness was in my sin/s.
There is also something to be said for the texts of scripture which deal with the period of innocency, so when I say 30 years, I simply included everything, without having to go into such a detail here.
I suppose the family born into would not have mattered, since no one being born of the flesh, is a Christian, and so could have been born into a baptist family, methodist, or etc, and still been just as lost, though certain aspects of apostate christendeom have more truth/light than others, though still carrying a lot of the "Mother's" teachings and practices [sunday sacredness, preterism, futurism, immortal soul/spirit theology, eternal torments, Michael the archangel is merely a creature, osas, traditions above scripture, and so on], not to mention all the pagan families [Muslim, Buddhist, Ancestral, Animist, etc]
In the same manner, I suppose I could have been born into a Seventh-day Adventist family, and been just as lost, because of the flesh, carnal nature, sin/s. Being a Seventh-day Adventist in name or 'lineage' [as of flesh, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, gen., no such thing] is not salvation, never could be, never will be. Many in such a name [only] or 'lineage' will perish, and many others in other places will be accepted, walking to what they knew. Though there is in these last hours of earth's history such a test, as noted in the final book, in which all must make a decision, even as it was in the days of Noe [Noah].
True Seventh-day Adventists are 1st gen only, meaning, all must have been "born again", by "water" and "spirit" as was stated by Jesus to Nicodemus.
I pray that this makes sense.
One Baptism
Active Member
There are several issues with such 'creeds' of men, though originally wellmeaning in their intent, but since corrupted in their abuse and use, and function. However, to just touch upon this point, wherein it is said of the Romanist [and others like them], "catholic Church ... catholic ... Church ..."
There are no such words as "catholic Church" in scripture, neither in the OT Hebrew/Syriac, nor NT Koine Greek. I even had Roman Catholic apologist admit this to me in print, after I sent them the evidence, which showed that their best attempts failed to stand up to scrutiny.
If you would like that same evidence, I will share it with you here.
However, there is indeed a 'universal' religion, a 'universal' synagogue of Satan, who say they are apostles and are not, who say they are jews [circumcised of heart] and are not, but are spiritually [uncircumcised] gentiles, and it is found in the Great Whore, Babylon the great [who is in 3 parts]. For the whole world [universal, catholic] wonders after the beast of the Sea. I am not saying that all persons presently in said system are wicked, lost, etc, though they are presently deceived upon certain points. So, am not speaking derogatorily, I am speaking the language of that which is written, as a loving warning. There is no maliciousness in my saying, though certain ears/hearts would have it added so. There are many presently within and under the sanctuary of Seventh-day Adventist, which will [and even now is] go out, and separate, as tares from wheat, goats from sheep, foolish from wise, by the angels, even the 3 Angels of Revelation. The prophet Ezekiel showed this, in chapter 9 of his writings, and shows that the judgment and execution thereof begins with the us, even the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, from the highest Elder, unto the least. The dead are even now being judged since 1844, and when the test comes, it will pass from the dead to the living, and there are already previews of it even now.
True Seventh-day Adventists are indeed of every nation, people, tribe and language, but we are not 'catholic'. We are the pure woman which came out of the wilderness, and made war upon by the synagogue of satan.
The word "catholic" comes from the Greek "katholikos" meaning universal in English. It is a description of "one", meaning one Christian Church. As the new religion of Christianity evolved, there was but one church on earth that represented it and it was led by the Bishops whom we know as the Early Church Fathers, there was no other. ONE HOLY CATHOLIC (Universal for all men) and APOSTOLIC CHRISTIAN CHURCH! The fact is, your particular Christian sect was not even around back then.
You are speaking out of ignorance so I am taking that into account.