No taking up cross - no heaven ?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If you have the ability to believe, you obviously have the ability not to believe. I could post about a hundred verses here to demonstrate that fact. God forces salvation on no one. His grace can be resisted.

HP: Once a man has exercised their will in repentance, and has exercised their wills in accepting the free gift of salvation, does man’s will still have the ability to resist God’s salvation, turn from the grace he has received and the path he started on? Does the possibility exist that one that has entered into a hope of eternal life with Christ could resist God’s grace and eventually, following that path of resistance, be lost and eventually merit eternal hell as his reward?

 

[BobRyan]

Answer to HPs question: Yes.

 

[BobRyan]

The "family can't be lost" myth was busted in Genesis 3. The Gospels state that "Adam was the son of God" by family lineage -- since he was directly created by God. That makes him "family".

Clue: Adam fell - Adam needed salvation - Adam needed the new Birth - Adam needed forgiveness, Adam was doomed to hell without Christ AFTER having been perfectly created holy, sinless and "family".

Time to start accepting the Bible instead of rejecting it.

There is "no such thing as a saved nation"! And there never was!

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b

]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God[/b]. [/b]

Rom 9
6But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7[b]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants[/b], but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[Hope of Glory]

There has been an unsubstantiated claim made that everyone who is saved is referred to as a "saint" in the Bible. I'm still waiting for the Scriptural proof. If it's true, it should be easy to substantiate. (It's only the doctrine of men that says this, but the claim has been made, and I'm willing to bet that this question will continue to be avoided.)

 

[DHK]

. Can't be family as an unsaved person.

Cain,"that wciked one," was the brother of Abel," a man of faith and considered also a prophet. That debunks your theory.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Prophesy doesn't force anyone to do anything. That couldn't be further from the truth. Prophesy is God's Word that something is going to happen in the future just as He said it was going to happen. So if what He said doesn't happen just as He said it would then He is a liar. That is not possible, so whatever God has said will happen it will happen you can take that to the bank!!

The events written in prophetic literature (in the Bible) happen because of God's foreknowledge. God is omniscient and knows everything in the future. He knows your present thoughts and what you will be thinking about in the future. If you right now change your mind and try to outdo God, He is one step ahead of you and knew before the foundation of the earth that you wouuld try and do that. You can't fool God. God knows all things. God knew what would happen before it happened.
Having said that he didn't force those particular Roman soldiers to drive the nails into his hand. He didn't force Pilate, or Caiaphas, or Ananias to do anything. Everything that those men did they did of their own free will. They chose to do it. Even Judas of his own free will chose to betray Christ. No one, not the devil, and certainly not God forced Judas to betray Christ. He chose to do that evil act on his own accord. Man has a free will. That is one of the attributes that makes him "in the image of God."
The fact that God knew what each of these men would do, does not mean that he forced them to do it. Foreknowledge is different than predestination. They were not predestined to do evil. They chose to do it.

Likewis a man chooses to accept Christ. God knows every decision that will be made. He knows every saint or believer ahead of time. But he doesn't force anyone to believe. His foreknowledge does not interfere with man's free will to choose.
His foreknowledge about prophetic events does not interfere with the free will of the men involved in those events. He knew men would cast lots for Christ's cloak. But ne never forced anyone to do it. He does not force people to go against their wills. Man chooses to sin. Man chooses whether to receive Christ or reject Christ. Simply being a member of the family or nation of Israel did not make the believers. "Not all Israel is Israel."
DHK

 

[xdisciplex]

I don't understand this. On the one hand there are verses in the bible which sound like all we have to do to be saved is believe and then there are also verses which sound like "if you do nothing, you go to hell". This is totally confusing. :tear:
If I say "you have to do good works to be or to remain saved" people will say I'm a heretic. If I say "you only have to believe" people will say that I am wrong, too.

 

[J. Jump]

DHK I agree with you that they were not forced to because of predestination, but it was going to happen that way and there was nothing those people could do about it, becuase God said that was the way it was going to happen.

Simply being a member of the family or nation of Israel did not make the believers.

You are right. There were a lot of Jews that didn't accept Christ as the Messiah. They were unbelievers, but that doesn't have anything to do with grace through faith, because that wasn't the message being delievered.

If that was the message that was being delivered why don't we read in any of the four gospel accounts about grace through faith?

Because that wasn't the message being delivered. The message being delivered was the message of the kingdom.

Once again if you try to tie the Gospels into eternal salvation you are going to get a mixed up salvation of works like some of our posters are contending. Works play no part in salvation whatsoever. None. So we know that it wasn't eternal savlation being talked about.

"Not all Israel is Israel."

Who are they then? India? Sudan? Ireland? Great Britain? Canada?

God gave them grace in allowing the slaughter of animals to suffice the death and shed blood necessary. The nation was practicing this in faith. That is grace through faith and that's all it takes.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't understand this. On the one hand there are verses in the bible which sound like all we have to do to be saved is believe and then there are also verses which sound like "if you do nothing, you go to hell". This is totally confusing. :tear:
If I say "you have to do good works to be or to remain saved" people will say I'm a heretic. If I say "you only have to believe" people will say that I am wrong, too.

It's because some of our posters are not rightly dividing Scripture. They are choosing to ignore plain teaching of Scripture to complicate a message that God intended to be very simple.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 clearly indicates that if one believes in the death and shed blood of Jesus as their substitute and that He paid the penalty for their sin they are saved.

I think people want to throw in works because they just can't get over the fact that God is gracious. They want to be able to take credit for their salvation instead of relying 100% on God. It's sad.

What's worse is that people are being deceived into believing this false teaching.

 

[Revmitchell]

JJ where are you getting this kingdom mumbo jumbo from.Who are you reading?

 

[BobRyan]

There has been an unsubstantiated claim made that everyone who is saved is referred to as a "saint" in the Bible. I'm still waiting for the Scriptural proof. If it's true, it should be easy to substantiate. (It's only the doctrine of men that says this, but the claim has been made, and I'm willing to bet that this question will continue to be avoided.)

Notice that neither Romans 9, nor Romans 11 nor 2Tim 2 require that you introduce that kind of riddle or that you make the unbiblical assumption that there are OTHERS saved - that are NOT saints! And in that case falling from being "saint-saved" to being "other-saved" is what this fall-lite is talking about so you are still in the bounds of OSAS just not "a saint".

However - I do admit that you make a huge leap forward in admitting that the problems those texts bring to OSAS would cause you to have to invent some kind of "middle heaven" where salvation PLUS walking in faith is heaven - and then "believe without works" is simply "more heaven". Too bad it is not what James says it is - but still a good idea to make up that solution if you need to preserve OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

There is "no such thing as a saved nation"! And there never was!

Quote:
Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b
Quote:
]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God[/b]. [/b]



Quote:
Rom 9
6But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7[b]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants[/b], but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[BobRyan]

I consider that the Bible definition of one who is saved is the following.

#1. Reconciled to Christ - in fellowship with Christ.
#2. At peace with God in the light of His grace to us. (Rom 5:1
#3. Forgiven of sins (1John 1:9)
#4. Christ as our Mediator confessing us as His own before the courts of heaven. (1John 2:1)
#5. Faith that is alive and growing James 2:14-27, Heb 11:1-4
#6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly blessings of the age to come.
#7. Freedom from slavery to sin - escape from the tyranny of being forced to sin.
Walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Walking as Christ walked rather than lying about our relationship to Christ.
(1John 2:2-5, Romans 8:3-9, Romans 6 all, Romans 2 all)


Yet all this is still WITH the sinful nature such that we in fact may sin - but will always find in Christ "A mediator with the Father" 1John 2:1 rather than the loss of salvation.

These are the basics in my view of salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Saved walk “Contrasted” to the enslaved-to-sin walk defined in Romans 2

Rom 2
7 to those who [b]by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/b]
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and [b]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/B]
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and [b]peace to everyone who does good[/b], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 8

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin[/b], He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Rom 2

:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

 

[DHK]

You are right. There were a lot of Jews that didn't accept Christ as the Messiah. They were unbelievers, but that doesn't have anything to do with grace through faith, because that wasn't the message being delievered.

You are mixed up--thorughly mixed up. First you say that we all are saved by faith, even by grace through faith--both Old and New Testament. Now you deny what you have already admitted. Why the retreat? Why the contradiction? Are the sainst of the Old Tesament saved by faith or not? Previously you said yes. Now you say No.

If that was the message that was being delivered why don't we read in any of the four gospel accounts about grace through faith?

Do you believe the words of Jesus or not?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--What is the way of salvation--not the kingdom, but salvation? It is Christ, believing in Christ is the only way to salvation. There is not a word here about the Kingdom. This salvation is by grace. It is through faith. It is provided by Jesus Christ and by Him alone. Without Christ there is no salvation. Christ Himself made that very clear.

Because that wasn't the message being delivered. The message being delivered was the message of the kingdom.

You believe a lie. What did Jesus preach? I gave you John 14:6. I will yet give you more.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--There is mention of salvation by faith, but no mention of the kingdom.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--There is mention of salvation by faith, but no mention of the kingdom.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--There is mention of salvation by faith, but no mention of the kingdom.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--There is mention of salvation by faith, but no mention of the kingdom.

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
--The issue here is one of eternal life gained by faith in Christ; nothing is said of the kingdom.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--There is mention of salvation by faith, but no mention of the kingdom.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--The issue is eternal life obtained through faith in Christ; not the kingdom.

John 6:47-48 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.
--The same message is given again: Salvation is by faith in Christ--no mention of the kingdom.

John 6:67-69 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
--The issue was not the kingdom, but eternal life. The disciples knew this. Look at the clear point that they made: Thou hast the words of eternal life." It was not 'Thou hast the words of the kingdom,' but of eternal life. Believing in Christ was by faith, and it brought eternal life because of the grace of God. This was all pre-cross.
Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Your theology may change. But Jesus doesn't. Notice that I have stopped only after six chapters in just one gospel. This would be a very long post if I went through all the chapters of John let alone all the chapters of all the gospels.

Once again if you try to tie the Gospels into eternal salvation you are going to get a mixed up salvation of works like some of our posters are contending. Works play no part in salvation whatsoever. None. So we know that it wasn't eternal savlation being talked about.

It sounds like you have a mixed idea of salvation and are very confused. Jesus is the center, the very core of the gospel message. The word gospel means "good news." The good news is that Jesus came to save. I never gave any hint of works. But if you beat yourself up about this kingdom theology of yours you may end up with a works salvation that Jesus never preached.

Who are they then? India? Sudan? Ireland? Great Britain? Canada?

Are you questioning God. I didn't say that! The Holy Spirit of God did.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Who are they then? India? Sudan? Ireland, etc.? Answer your own question. Ask God. Study the Bible for yourself. No need to mock me.
Or believe the answer I have already given you. All of Israel is not saved.

God gave them grace in allowing the slaughter of animals to suffice the death and shed blood necessary. The nation was practicing this in faith. That is grace through faith and that's all it takes.

As I previously showed you through the Book of Micah, the entire nation did not sacrifice in faith. As far back as the garden of Eden, Cain did not sacrifice in faith. Thus it has been so throughout human history. Study how Eli's sons sacrificed. Were their sacrifices done in faith also?? God does not accept all sacrifices. Just because they sacrificed animals does not mean they were accepted by God. "All Israel is not Israel" (That is my own concise paraphrase of Romans 9:6 in case you didn't understand it.)
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

As I assumed, Bob Ryan is unwilling to answer the question, because his position is not supported by Scripture. I have posted at length why not all who are saved are referred to as "saints", and he is only able to anwer "are too!" with no scriptural support.

Both John the Baptizer and Jesus came preaching the Kingdom.

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[BobRyan]

Can you provide a text of scripture that says "saints are not saved by grace through faith"?

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints of God who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus

Post #14 on this thread
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=779025&postcount=14

This was my "are too" with no text that is being referred to (I think).

But in my view Ephesians IS a text!

In my view Ephesians declares that those who are faithful who are "In Christ" are in fact "saints".

Paul does not say "to those who believe - some of whom are saints and some of whom are saved but not saints" as you have imagined!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

Paul addresses the Ephesians as saints because thats what they are. It doesn't follow that every believer is an Ephesian, nor a saint. There is a positional sense in which all believers are saints, but in the real world not all believers are going to live up to the calling.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

If you are sanctified in Christ Jesus, you are called to be a saint. But if every believer is a saint, then there must be some dirty saints out there.

1 Corinthians 6:6-8
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

My how saintly of the Corinthians to defraud their brethren. They are so saintly that Paul admonishes them with the following warning.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Let's sum up. Dear Sanctified Corinthians, (called to be) saints, why are you defrauding each other? Don't you know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Either there are saints who won't inherit the kingdom of God, or not all who are sanctified are saints. Take your pick.

 

[mman]

Do you believe the words of Jesus or not?

I have asked you this question time and time again without a response.

Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

Do you believe and accept this for what it says or must you twist it to fit your theology?

You made reference to John 3:36. Study the Greek. You will find a more accurate translation is, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." - ESV

or

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - NASV

or

36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. - ASV

A distinction made in the Greek is obscured when the 2 different Greek words are translated as the same English word.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul addresses the Ephesians as saints because thats what they are. It doesn't follow that every believer is an Ephesian, nor a saint. There is a positional sense in which all believers are saints, but in the real world not all believers are going to live up to the calling.

More "to the point" it does not follow that EVERYONE attending the church of Ephesus "was saved"... it does not follow that EVERYONE attending the church at Ephesus was "living up to the calling".

But it DOES follow that SAINTS are those who are "IN Christ".

Let me be clear on this - I AGREE with those who say
that the ones "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5,
"OUTSIDE the vine of Christ" Rom 11 and John 15,
"DENIED BY CHRIST" 2Tim 2,
"ALONE and without Christ, apart from Fellowship with Christ" Rev 3,
"Who share the same kind of belief as DEMONS" James 2,
who "Have had their forgiveness REVOKED" Matt 18
-- are "not saints"!

What I do NOT agree with is that those are descriptions in the Gospel of what it means to be "saved".

In Christ,

Bob