James_Newman
New Member
saved from what?
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No taking up cross - no heaven ?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints of God who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus
In other words there is no writing to those "who one day will become saints if they keep working at it" AS IF being a saint is "by works". Rather - being a saint is attained AT salvation by "being born again" and forgiven. At that moment "you are a new creation - old things have passed away all things are new" -- you do not say to such a one "ONE day if you are good enough you will become a saint".
That is purely dark ages stuff.
Romans 6 points out that AT the START we are "freed from slavery to sin"
2 Cor 5 points out that "AT THE START" we are "A NEW Creation"
We are saints - "at the start" -- not perfect not sinless but saints!
In Christ,
Bob
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints of God who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus
In other words there is no writing to those "who one day will become saints if they keep working at it" AS IF being a saint is "by works". Rather - being a saint is attained AT salvation by "being born again" and forgiven. At that moment "you are a new creation - old things have passed away all things are new" -- you do not say to such a one "ONE day if you are good enough you will become a saint".
That is purely dark ages stuff.
Romans 6 points out that AT the START we are "freed from slavery to sin"
2 Cor 5 points out that "AT THE START" we are "A NEW Creation"
We are saints - "at the start" -- not perfect not sinless but saints!
In Christ,
Bob
James_Newman
New Member
Romans 6:11-12
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Why do new creatures have to be told not to let sin reign in their bodies?
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Why do new creatures have to be told not to let sin reign in their bodies?
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
BOB R: We are saints - "at the start" -- not perfect not sinless but saints!
HP: Here is some food for thought. You say at the start that we are born again, saints, etc. from the start. If we are not made ‘free from sin’ we have not been born again. If Christ’s blood does not cleanse our hearts, at the initial point of salvation, from ALL sin, we are still in them and as such are still under the curse of the law. Christ came to save us and to cleanse our hearts from ALL sin, not save us in our sins. If that is not being made perfectly clean, sinless, spotless, why not? I am not trying to indicate by any means that one entering into this new life as a sinless believer, having ALL our sins cast from us as far as the east is from the west, will walk perfectly and not sin subsequent to this initial cleansing. I am just making a point concerning the perfection of the heart AT the initial salvation experience.
As startling as this must sound to some, I will say that AT salvation ones heart is made totally free from sin and granted a perfectly moral heart. That is both sinless and perfect in God’s eyes. God understands the frailty of our flesh and that we are finite in our understanding and abilities. We will never be perfect in any absolute sense as finite beings, but we are made perfect in heart, perfect morally before God and His law.
I believe you know the verses that clearly state we are made free from ALL sin, so I will not post them now.
HP: Here is some food for thought. You say at the start that we are born again, saints, etc. from the start. If we are not made ‘free from sin’ we have not been born again. If Christ’s blood does not cleanse our hearts, at the initial point of salvation, from ALL sin, we are still in them and as such are still under the curse of the law. Christ came to save us and to cleanse our hearts from ALL sin, not save us in our sins. If that is not being made perfectly clean, sinless, spotless, why not? I am not trying to indicate by any means that one entering into this new life as a sinless believer, having ALL our sins cast from us as far as the east is from the west, will walk perfectly and not sin subsequent to this initial cleansing. I am just making a point concerning the perfection of the heart AT the initial salvation experience.
As startling as this must sound to some, I will say that AT salvation ones heart is made totally free from sin and granted a perfectly moral heart. That is both sinless and perfect in God’s eyes. God understands the frailty of our flesh and that we are finite in our understanding and abilities. We will never be perfect in any absolute sense as finite beings, but we are made perfect in heart, perfect morally before God and His law.
I believe you know the verses that clearly state we are made free from ALL sin, so I will not post them now.
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Not mixed up at all. You are saying things that I never said. I have always insisted that OT and NT people are saved exactly the same way. It is all by grace through faith and nothing else.
What you are saying is that everyone has to believe in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation. That is not entirely true.
God told the nation of Israel, which was enslaved in Egypt, kill a lamb and spread the blood and you will be saved/delievered (very few if any will deny that the exodus of Israel out of Egypt is not the picture of salvation). Now there was no mention of Christ per se. Even though we know that the death of the lambs was a picture of His coming death. I'm not sure that they knew that, but yet they were still saved.
And it was the same as long as Israel was slaying the passover animals. God looked at them through the blood. That's what He established so who am I to second guess it?
Now the same was true for the Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes and lay people of the NT times. Things didn't change until after Jesus' sacrifice was made. Once The Sacrifice was given then the blood of animals was no longer sufficient, because The Sacrifice had been given.
But again Jesus didn't come to them in the same way that we see Jesus. It's very simple.
I certainly do believe the words of Jesus! He is the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father, but through Jesus Christ.
But you are equating that with eternal salvation, which means that these people were saved up and until Christ was born and then when Christ was born they became unsaved. Sorry, but the Bible doesn't teach that. So this can't mean what you want it to mean, we just have to let it mean what God intended it to mean.
Oh no. I'm never more convinced that this is the truth. There is a number of reasons why, but I won't go into that yet.
Well here is the problem you are going to run into if you equate John 3:16 with eternal salvation. If you want to equate that with eternal salvation then there is no way that you can believe in eternal security, because the verb in John 3:16 is a present tense verb, which means that as soon as someone stops believing they are lost again.
See the above reference for John 3:16. If eternal salvation then there is no security. Also the context is not eternal salvation, but the context is the kingdom, because Nicodemus comes to Jesus talking about His signs that He has been doing. The signs have to do with the nation of Israel and the offered kingdom. So it doesn't have to say kingdom, because the context tells us that's what is being discussed.
DHK everything is by faith. Entrance into the kingdom (salvation) is by believing. You are just assigning your message to the text. Go back and do a study on the word aionios. It comes from the root word aion which means age. The word should be translated age-lasting. He is talking about having life for the coming age, which is the kingdom.
Again aionios life is spoken of and should be age-lasting.
That would be a works based salvation then, because it says he tha comes to Jesus. Eternal salvation is inititiated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to us and we just receive the gift. Context says that's not talking about eternal salvation.
I didn't address your other verses in John because it's going to be the same thing.
Amen to that. I wish you and others would realize that. Just becuase the church has been teaching and preaching the wrong message for 1,000s of years doesn't mean that what Jesus actually taught has changed.
Yes I noticed that you assigned your meaning to each of the texts you listed and would probably continue to do the same to any others you listed.
Quite the contrary. The message of eternal salvation is the most simple message available to mankind. By grace are you saved through faith.
But you can't assign your meaning to those words. You have to let them mean what God intends for them to mean.
You say that everyone has to believe in Jesus and that's just not what God said.
How can people believe in a Sacrifice before it is ever given. Now once that Sacrifice is made then yes people have to believe on that sacrifice. But the death and shed blood has to happen first.
That is exactly the Truth for us today and people after the death of Jesus, but not prior. Again how can you trust in something that hasn't occured. The thing is you can't. That's why God said the sacrifice of animals sufficed because it pointed to what was going to happen.
I will comment on this later.
DHK one thing we can know for sure is the Bible does not contradict itself. So if there is a seeming contradiction it is because our understanding is flawed.
There is no doubt that the Bible teaches the message of the Kingdom. And there is no doubt that the message of the Kingdom is based upon works. So therefore there is no way the message of the Kingdom is equal to the message of eternal salvation, because that would contradict at least two if not more verses of Scripture.
Therefore we know that the message delivered in the Gospels was not a message of eternal salvation, becuase it was tied to works. Works do not come into play in eternal salvation. It is that simple.
Also we know the OT foreshadowed that it was the brother of Christ that was going to kill Him. Israel is the son of God. That means they are saved.
Again if we would just simply let the Bible say what was intended then we could get away from all these false teachings, but because we have our own agendas, because we are a Biblically illiterate church and because a variety of other factors we have the Laodician church that we have today.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
JJ: That is exactly the Truth for us today and people after the death of Jesus, but not prior. Again how can you trust in something that hasn't occured.
HP: You might consider the words “faith” or “hope.” Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
HP: You might consider the words “faith” or “hope.” Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
J. Jump said:
Just a few verses later, in vs 36, Jesus states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." - ESV (NASV & ASV are similar)
Here, belief and obedience are tied together. Many people confuse eternal security with the impossibility of apostasy. The christian is secure, with a hope that anchors the soul, based on the promises of God, however, they do not lose their free will. They can fall away, be led away, decieved, turn away from the truth unto fables because it is pleasing to their ears, stop following and obeying God, stop confessing their sins to God, wander from the truth, entangled again and overcome, etc. Warnings abound in the scripture.
The kingdom is the church. Jesus used the two terms interchangably in Matt 16:16-19. He is not going to build one thing and give Peter the keys to something else. Peter preached in Acts 2, and the church was established.
This was a fulfilment of Mark 9:1. Some of those would not taste death till they saw the kingdom come with power. Either they are very old or the kingdom was established during their day. Luke 24:49 says they would receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them in Jerusalem. While in Jerusalem, they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), and the kingdom/church came with power and 3000 were added to it (Acts 1:8
That was the preaching of John the baptizer, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand.
Paul stated that "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son," - Col 1:13
mman you keep believing those false teachings if you want to. As for me I will not be deceived.
HP - So do you hope you are saved or do you know you are saved? If you only hope you are saved then you have some issues with the Scriptures, because the Scriptures teach that a person can know without a shadow of a doubt that they are eternally saved.
But if you want to live in hope that one day you will make it that is on you. That's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
HP - So do you hope you are saved or do you know you are saved? If you only hope you are saved then you have some issues with the Scriptures, because the Scriptures teach that a person can know without a shadow of a doubt that they are eternally saved.
But if you want to live in hope that one day you will make it that is on you. That's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
J. Jump said:
God's word it truth. It never contradicts itself. Is some cases, I simply listed the scripture.
Obviously, your conclusion to reading the scripture is different than what you believe, therefore, you reject it, because you are right, regardless of what the scriptures teach.
Is that you position?
Jesus told Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - Jn 3:5
Jesus said, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Acts 2:38 Peter said (by inspiritaion of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4))to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized (Water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:47 - praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
Here we have people being added to the church/kingdom, being born of water and the spirit, just as Jesus told Nicodemus. Peter preached and opened the doors to the kingdom/chuch just as Jesus had said in Matt 16.
If Jesus had said, "I will build my house" and "I will give you the keys to the dwelling", would you understand the house and the dwelling are the same thing????
Hope of Glory
New Member
When I was first saved 35 years or so ago, this was a teaching that you could hear in about half the Baptist churches. Before that, it was even more, from what I've been told. Now, you're hard pressed to find one that does. That's one reason that many Baptist churches are changing their names to simply "Bible Church"; the Baptists by and large are abandoning the truth in favor of an easier gospel.
This idea is certainly not supported by Scripture. There are over 200 examples in Scriptures in which the Kingdom is easily seen to be future and literal, yet there are 5 or 6 exceptional passages that many people try to use to "prove" that the Kingdom is simply spiritual and mystical or something else.
We covered this in yesterday's sermon.
[Colossians 1:13-14] Many people erroneously think they enter the Kingdom at the moment they are born from above. We have been looking at this passage for a few weeks now, and I want us to look at it again in this context.
As we’ve already looked at this morning, it is just simply not possible for Christians to enter into the Kingdom at present. Why is that? Because Satan and his angels currently rule this Kingdom. Jesus Christ and his co-heirs will not occupy and rule in this Kingdom until some point in the future. This is consistent with all teaching of Scripture that has anything to do with the subject.
The word that is translated as “translated” has to do with change. It means “transfer” or “move”. 1 Corinthians 13:2 talks about moving a mountain. Luke 16:4 talks about removing from an office.
[Acts 13] Comparing Colossians 1:13 with Acts 13:22 will help us get an understanding of what is involved in a person being transferred or moved. [Acts 13:22] In Acts 13:22 (which is drawing from 1 Samuel), Saul had been rejected [it says that he had been “removed”], and God then raised up David to be king in Israel. [Acts 13:22]
But, did Saul step down immediately? No, Saul remained in power as king until his death, and his rejection [his “removal” though still seated on the throne] was God's announcement that his days as king were numbered. Saul would one day be put down, and another would then ascend the throne (David). God would remove Saul from power and place David in power, in complete keeping with Daniel 4:17-32.
After Saul had been rejected, although he was still occupying the throne, God singled out David and instructed Samuel to anoint him king in Saul’s place. Although he was anointed king in Saul’s stead, David didn't immediately ascend the throne. Although Saul was rejected, he continued to reign. During this time, David found himself rejected in a different sense (by man, not God), exiled, and passing through a time of trials and sufferings.
During this time, a number of individuals who were dissatisfied with existing conditions in the kingdom under Saul, left Saul's kingdom and associated themselves with David. In doing this, they found themselves occupying exactly the same position in which David found himself during this time; they were rejected, exiled, and passing through a time of trials and sufferings.
The band of men who had left the kingdom under Saul and had associated themselves with David simply changed positions, and this is what we’re talking about in Colossians 1:13. There was no existing kingdom under David in which these men found themselves, just as there is no existing kingdom under Christ in which Christians presently find themselves. In David's day, Saul still occupied the throne, just as Satan continues to occupy the throne today. David was waiting to ascend the throne, just as Christ is presently waiting to ascend the throne. Those who had joined themselves to David had been moved into a new position (from the kingdom under Saul, anticipating the kingdom under David) in order to share David's glory in a coming day, and those who have joined themselves to Christ have been moved into a new position (from the kingdom under Satan, anticipating the kingdom under Jesus Christ) in order to share in his glory in that coming day.
I want us to pay attention to the purpose for this interim in the type during David's day; a time during which David could acquire the necessary rulers to hold positions of power with him when he took the kingdom. For every type, there is an antitype. In the antitype, the purpose for the interim is exactly the same; it is a time during which Jesus Christ can acquire the necessary rulers to hold positions of power with Him when He takes the Kingdom.
So, relative to this, Acts 13:22 forms the type (actually, it restates the type from 1 Samuel), and Colossians 1:13 the antitype. Types with their corresponding antitypes always have to be understood and interpreted exactly the same way. The move in Colossians 1:13 can only be a move from an association with the power and authority which Satan presently exercises in his kingdom into an association with the rejected position presently hold by the King who will one day replace Satan. It has nothing to do with a move into a position where the King already exercises power and authority, but this is what many people erroneously believe and teach. The type doesn't allow understanding the verse in this manner. Though the move in the type had to do with regality, it could not be brought to pass until a future day. And matters in the antitype must be understood after exactly the same fashion as seen in the type.
Although the Kingdom is literal and future and not something that is merely spiritual, we are spiritually following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as those who surrounded David followed him, even though they were still in a Kingdom that was ruled by Saul. And we are awaiting that glorious day when our King will ascend the throne, just as David’s men were awaiting the day that he would ascend the throne.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
JJ: So do you hope you are saved or do you know you are saved? If you only hope you are saved then you have some issues with the Scriptures, because the Scriptures teach that a person can know without a shadow of a doubt that they are eternally saved.
But if you want to live in hope that one day you will make it that is on you. That's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
HP: I know I am saved by faith, not absolute knowledge. It is not a hope so faith, but a faith with evidence. The evidence is a changed life. “Not a shadow of doubt’ is a hard statement no tfound in Scripture. If in fact there is no possibility of doubt, faith is impossible. If “not a shadow of a doubt’ is a code term for ‘absolute knowledge’, I believe scripture refutes such a depiction of salvation by faith.
My salvation is based upon the sure Word of God, in that God is faithful to keep His side of the bargain, IF I first complete the conditions He has laid out as necessary for me to enter into the hope of eternal life, and subsequently live in obedience to His Word until the end. I have not reached the end yet, so I need to daily examine myself to see if in fact my walk is in accordance to my faith. I cannot expect to enter in if in fact my walk and my faith are not in agreement. “Faith without works is dead being alone.” I trust in the promise that “there is therefore now no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will with the temptation make a way of escape that we may be able to bear it.” In all my trust in God and His promises, I must give honest heed to the admonishment in Scripture that I need to be sure that while I preach to others, I myself do not become a castaway, having departed from a holy walk and the condition of staying true and obedient until the end.
JJ: It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
HP: Do not forget that little word Jesus added for our understanding, that little word "IF." Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
But if you want to live in hope that one day you will make it that is on you. That's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
HP: I know I am saved by faith, not absolute knowledge. It is not a hope so faith, but a faith with evidence. The evidence is a changed life. “Not a shadow of doubt’ is a hard statement no tfound in Scripture. If in fact there is no possibility of doubt, faith is impossible. If “not a shadow of a doubt’ is a code term for ‘absolute knowledge’, I believe scripture refutes such a depiction of salvation by faith.
My salvation is based upon the sure Word of God, in that God is faithful to keep His side of the bargain, IF I first complete the conditions He has laid out as necessary for me to enter into the hope of eternal life, and subsequently live in obedience to His Word until the end. I have not reached the end yet, so I need to daily examine myself to see if in fact my walk is in accordance to my faith. I cannot expect to enter in if in fact my walk and my faith are not in agreement. “Faith without works is dead being alone.” I trust in the promise that “there is therefore now no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will with the temptation make a way of escape that we may be able to bear it.” In all my trust in God and His promises, I must give honest heed to the admonishment in Scripture that I need to be sure that while I preach to others, I myself do not become a castaway, having departed from a holy walk and the condition of staying true and obedient until the end.
JJ: It teaches eternal salvation as a guarantee not a possibility.
HP: Do not forget that little word Jesus added for our understanding, that little word "IF." Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Hope of Glory
New Member
That verse is talking about being a disciple (not just a casual follower, but someone who embraces the teachings of the person to whom they are a disciple), not spiritual salvation.
Hope of Glory said:
Jesus kindgom is not of this world, that is where you are mistaken.
There is not one verse that contradicts what I said.
Matt 3:2, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Take for example, John the baptist. Was he in the kingdom? Will he be? Matt 11:11, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
Was John the baptizer saved? No doubt. What was he preaching? The kingdom of heaven is at hand, therefore the people should repent.
Jesus makes it clear that John is not part of the kingdom. Why? He was killed before the church was established. Jesus was saying that the least person in the church was greater than the greatest man outside the church. The church was established in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost. The church was in the eternal purpose and manifold wisdom of God (Eph 3:10-11).
Matt 13:38 says, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;"
This alone shows that the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one co-exist.
Matt 16:18-19, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Then just a few verses later, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." - (vs 28)
What is the logical conclusion? That some standing there would not die before they saw the coming of the church/kingdom.
John said, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:9
No figurative language in that statement.
BrianReimer
New Member
Hebrews 10:26-31 AVBobRyan said:
(26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hope of Glory said:
Exegete the text of Matt 10 -- SHOW that Christ says "SAVED but just not a disciple". SHOW that Christ claims "HEAVEN" for those that are NOT disciples - those that REFUSE to take of their cross AND FOLLOW HIM.
SHOW that when He says HE WILL DENY those who deny Him in this chapter He means "give them more heaven".
SHOW that when He says those who cling to their sinful life will lose it - He means "More heaven"
SHOW that when He says "NOT worthy of ME" He means "Worthy of heaven" regarding those who do not take up their cross and follow Him!
SHOW this universalist idea you propose actually IN Matt 10 as you say.
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Hope of Glory
New Member
You would do well to break out your Greek text and look at it and perhaps even diagram it out. It's a compound prepositional phrase that is connected back to "brother" and is not a stand-alone phrase that says, "I'm in the Kingdom".
Revelation 1:9 is another verse that many use to promote this fallacious doctrine of a spiritual and mystical Kingdom. Some use this verse to jump to the conclusion that John was referring to himself as being in the Kingdom of Jesus the Christ while writing the Book of Revelation. By doing this they have failed to take the entire verse into consideration. If John were in the kingdom, then the question that needs to be answered is, “why was he also experiencing tribulation?” How could John be experiencing the joy of the Kingdom and also the sufferings of tribulation at the same time? This verse gives no hint of John saying that he was in the Kingdom while suffering as an apostle of Christ on the island of Patmos.
There are several other clear verses in the Book of Revelation, which tell us exactly when the kingdom of Christ is established. [Revelation 11:15] In Revelation 11:15, the Kingdom is established at the seventh trumpet, which marks the end of the tribulation and the second coming of Christ. [Revelation 12:10] In Revelation 12:10, the time of Christ's Kingdom to be established comes after Satan is cast down from heaven. Until then the kingdoms of the world belong to Satan. Therefore, the kingdom will be established at the second coming of Christ. This is in harmony with all Scripture. John was waiting for the kingdom to come. John’s last prayer, in Revelations 22:20, was, “Come, Lord Jesus”.
To what then does Revelation 1:9 refer? The answer lies in comparing Revelation 1:9 with other verses which talk about the relation between tribulation and the Kingdom for a disciple of Jesus Christ. There are many passages that explain this relationship. Let’s look at a few of them. [Acts 14:22] [2 Timothy 2:12: If we suffer [now], we shall also reign [in the kingdom in future] with him: if we deny [sufferings] him, he also will deny us [reigning]:] [2 Thessalonians 1:5-7: And to you who are troubled [like Paul] rest with us [companions with Paul in the Kingdom] From these verses we can see that the entrance into the Kingdom is through enduring tribulation.
To be a brother and a companion in the kingdom in the future you have to be a brother in tribulation first. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, is very clear in explaining that the kingdom of God is a rest for the people of God from all tribulations. In the Kingdom there will be no tribulations, but until then we must suffer. The phrase “rest with us” signifies companionship in the kingdom with Paul and other faithful disciples who have endured trials and testing.
Concluding our thought on Revelations 1:9, the Apostle John is saying that he is one of the brethren, like many in the world, who are enduring tribulations for the Word of God and for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Brethren are those who are being obedient.
[1 Peter 5:9] These people will be the same group who will be companions in the kingdom, and he, John, will be one of them. [1 Peter 5:1; “partaker” – same root word as in Revelation 1:9 for “companion”] In 1 Peter 5:1, Peter was confident that he would be a partaker of the glory in the kingdom, because he was a witness of the sufferings of Christ.
This word “witness” is from the Greek word “martus”, and it can be one of four things: 1. A spectator. 2. One who testifies to what he has seen. 3. In a forensic sense, a witness in court. 4. One who vindicates or confirms his testimony by suffering. In other words, a martyr. (“martus” – martyr) Now, the first three have to do with only seeing with a view to giving a testimony, which Peter does. But, did Peter suffer? He certainly did! This expression made by Peter cannot be limited to the mere fact that he saw the things he preached. This is especially true, because when Peter wanted to emphasize that something was only seen, he employs a different word.
[2 Peter 1:16] God is not the author of confusion. Peter was a participant, in the sufferings of Christ, and he would be a participant in the glory of Christ, and John is showing the same confidence in Revelation 1:9. One can be a brother in the Kingdom, as long as he is faithful in tribulations and afflictions, just like someone can be in the book of life because he was a fellow laborer with Paul, as we are told in Philippians 4:3.
Yet, being in the book of life does not guarantee an entrance into the kingdom. One can fail to overcome and thus be blotted out of the book of life, as we are told in Revelation 3:5. This has to do with overcoming; with ruling and reigning; not with spiritual salvation, which is secure in Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:9 is another verse that many use to promote this fallacious doctrine of a spiritual and mystical Kingdom. Some use this verse to jump to the conclusion that John was referring to himself as being in the Kingdom of Jesus the Christ while writing the Book of Revelation. By doing this they have failed to take the entire verse into consideration. If John were in the kingdom, then the question that needs to be answered is, “why was he also experiencing tribulation?” How could John be experiencing the joy of the Kingdom and also the sufferings of tribulation at the same time? This verse gives no hint of John saying that he was in the Kingdom while suffering as an apostle of Christ on the island of Patmos.
There are several other clear verses in the Book of Revelation, which tell us exactly when the kingdom of Christ is established. [Revelation 11:15] In Revelation 11:15, the Kingdom is established at the seventh trumpet, which marks the end of the tribulation and the second coming of Christ. [Revelation 12:10] In Revelation 12:10, the time of Christ's Kingdom to be established comes after Satan is cast down from heaven. Until then the kingdoms of the world belong to Satan. Therefore, the kingdom will be established at the second coming of Christ. This is in harmony with all Scripture. John was waiting for the kingdom to come. John’s last prayer, in Revelations 22:20, was, “Come, Lord Jesus”.
To what then does Revelation 1:9 refer? The answer lies in comparing Revelation 1:9 with other verses which talk about the relation between tribulation and the Kingdom for a disciple of Jesus Christ. There are many passages that explain this relationship. Let’s look at a few of them. [Acts 14:22] [2 Timothy 2:12: If we suffer [now], we shall also reign [in the kingdom in future] with him: if we deny [sufferings] him, he also will deny us [reigning]:] [2 Thessalonians 1:5-7: And to you who are troubled [like Paul] rest with us [companions with Paul in the Kingdom] From these verses we can see that the entrance into the Kingdom is through enduring tribulation.
To be a brother and a companion in the kingdom in the future you have to be a brother in tribulation first. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, is very clear in explaining that the kingdom of God is a rest for the people of God from all tribulations. In the Kingdom there will be no tribulations, but until then we must suffer. The phrase “rest with us” signifies companionship in the kingdom with Paul and other faithful disciples who have endured trials and testing.
Concluding our thought on Revelations 1:9, the Apostle John is saying that he is one of the brethren, like many in the world, who are enduring tribulations for the Word of God and for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Brethren are those who are being obedient.
[1 Peter 5:9] These people will be the same group who will be companions in the kingdom, and he, John, will be one of them. [1 Peter 5:1; “partaker” – same root word as in Revelation 1:9 for “companion”] In 1 Peter 5:1, Peter was confident that he would be a partaker of the glory in the kingdom, because he was a witness of the sufferings of Christ.
This word “witness” is from the Greek word “martus”, and it can be one of four things: 1. A spectator. 2. One who testifies to what he has seen. 3. In a forensic sense, a witness in court. 4. One who vindicates or confirms his testimony by suffering. In other words, a martyr. (“martus” – martyr) Now, the first three have to do with only seeing with a view to giving a testimony, which Peter does. But, did Peter suffer? He certainly did! This expression made by Peter cannot be limited to the mere fact that he saw the things he preached. This is especially true, because when Peter wanted to emphasize that something was only seen, he employs a different word.
[2 Peter 1:16] God is not the author of confusion. Peter was a participant, in the sufferings of Christ, and he would be a participant in the glory of Christ, and John is showing the same confidence in Revelation 1:9. One can be a brother in the Kingdom, as long as he is faithful in tribulations and afflictions, just like someone can be in the book of life because he was a fellow laborer with Paul, as we are told in Philippians 4:3.
Yet, being in the book of life does not guarantee an entrance into the kingdom. One can fail to overcome and thus be blotted out of the book of life, as we are told in Revelation 3:5. This has to do with overcoming; with ruling and reigning; not with spiritual salvation, which is secure in Jesus Christ.
xdisciplex said:1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:9 - Idolatry is here placed between fornication and adultery, because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.
What exactly do you think does this mean?
Does this mean that if you're a christian and do not suffer then you're not doing it right? This sounds like you have to do works to go to heaven and to stay saved.
When you are born again in Christ, you start to take up the Cross. But sometimes, the born-again believers take off the Cross and leave it behind. Such believers will be shameful in the heaven. They are like the naked people who were saved from the fire while they were at the Sauna of pleasure.
Jesus Christ is more precious and more valuable than any other things, any other human beings in the world, Jesus Christ is more precious than all the total sum of everything in the universe which cannot give you or me the eternal life.
Jesus Christ has given you the life and salvation which can never be bought even if you pay everything that you can earn throughout your lifetime, even if you give all the gold of this world, you cannot buy such eternal life and the forgiveness of your sins.
Praise Lord Jesus Christ !
Hope of Glory
New Member
Bob Ryan,
I am really getting sick and tired of your lies and the way you twist the words of brothers.
This is the last time that I will respond to one of your lies, other than to point it out that you are lying and slandering.
But, if you would bother to look up the Scriptural definition of what a disciple is, you would answer your own question.
But, that would cause you to see some truth and deny your pre-conceived denominational teaching, so you can keep believing your works-based salvation as long as you want. I hope you finally figure out what the magical line is, in which your saved as long as your above that works-based line.
Finis.
I am really getting sick and tired of your lies and the way you twist the words of brothers.
This is the last time that I will respond to one of your lies, other than to point it out that you are lying and slandering.
But, if you would bother to look up the Scriptural definition of what a disciple is, you would answer your own question.
But, that would cause you to see some truth and deny your pre-conceived denominational teaching, so you can keep believing your works-based salvation as long as you want. I hope you finally figure out what the magical line is, in which your saved as long as your above that works-based line.
Finis.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Eliyahu said:
According to some on here, that person was never saved.
I'm glad that you see that you are not decieved in that way.
Hope of Glory said:
In the early stage of my life after I was born again, I thought the born-again believers would not be vile nor commit grievous sins.
But as time goes on, I have noticed how much sinful the human nature itself is, and the human nature still exist within us even though we don't rely on it, we don't follow it after we are truly born again.
Therefore what we have to do diligently is to follow the Holy Spirit and to obey Jesus Christ who loved us so much that he gave himself for us, by which we can avoid committing sins.
If we try to keep the Law, then we notice we are falling into the water faster as Peter was drowning when he saw the water instead of Lord.
The only way to keep the Law is to follow Holy Spirit as we read Galatian 5:16-26