Nobody cares

[DHK]

Steaver, When I talk about free will, I'm referring to spiritually dead heathens, whether or not they can embrace the gospel. Born from above Christians have a free will and have willed to embrace the gospel.

Please explain:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul is preaching to the idolatrous Athenians who had not heard the gospel before. Paul had just finished preaching this great message to these unsaved pagans. Now he tells them that God commands them, as He commands ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT.

It is your contention that God is commanding these men to do something that they are totally unable to do. God is so cruel and capricious that he is commanding these pagans, most of whom (in your opinion) are the non-elect, even after hearing the gospel and having the opportunity to repent, could not repent anyway for God has predestined them to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire separated from Him for all eternity?
What a cruel God that makes a mockery of Christianity and all that Christ stands for in His infinite love!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Steaver, When I talk about free will, I'm referring to spiritually dead heathens, whether or not they can embrace the gospel. Born from above Christians have a free will and have willed to embrace the gospel.

Yes, but they dont have free will in the Salvation Process---and that's the rub to most people.

 

[steaver]

So now I need to flesh this out Tony..... By your defination, what is free will? I am assuming now (remember, I said assuming) that it goes something like this : “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So if this is true then this is what I extrapolate in laymen terms,....you would be saying that God allows humans to do whatever we want to do because God aint a gonna do nothing about it. Do I have that right?

Tony can give his answer, but on your bolded parts, (1) God certainly asserts power and influence over the will of human beings, yet He gives them a choice, which leads to (2) God is going to destroy all who reject Him in the lake of fire.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The phrase is "What in the name of Sam Hill are you talking about?" Sam Hill was a real person from Texas. He is almost as well known as Tom Ball and Bob Wills. Back to the OP.

Who is Tom Ball & Bob Willis....are they cousents to Old Mother MaCree?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tony can give his answer, but on your bolded parts, (1) God certainly asserts power and influence over the will of human beings, yet He gives them a choice, which leads to (2) God is going to destroy all who reject Him in the lake of fire.

By that definition then I would have a one way ticket to hell.

 

[BobRyan]

So now I need to flesh this out Tony..... By your defination, what is free will? I am assuming now (remember, I said assuming) that it goes something like this : “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So if this is true then this is what I extrapolate in laymen terms,....you would be saying that God allows humans to do whatever we want to do because God aint a gonna do nothing about it. Do I have that right?

In the Arminian model - this is not God "doing nothing"

God So Loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son -- yes really - John 3:16

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32

"I STAND at the door and knock -- IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door -- I WILL come in" Rev 3

To get to the point of "free will" for sinful fallen man- God does a lot of supernatural things.

======================

That may be "doing nothing" in the Cavlinist model - since in the texts above there is no "arbitrary selection" where God works to save some but not others -- but in the Arminian model it is "God doing something"

 

[Robert William]

Yes, but they dont have free will in the Salvation Process---and that's the rub to most people.

Amen, I think that is the core issue that causes so many divisions. They (Free willies) also say, if God chooses one person over another for no reason, that it makes God a monster and that is unfair. Yet God is not obligated to save anybody. It's illogical.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen, I think that is the core issue that causes so many divisions. They also say, if God chooses one person over another for no reason, that it makes God a monster and that is unfair. Yet God is not obligated to save anybody. It's illogical.

Robert, I really don't care if its logical or illogical.....it is the will of God that I stand by. God is by nature righteous & holy....his will will be done. He is not obliged to save anyone. Therefore I see my salvation as a very generous gift, one that I did nothing to deserve....and one I would never have had to take up had it been my choice.....therefore it is even more so a precious gift.

 

[BobRyan]

Amen, I think that is the core issue that causes so many divisions. They (Free willies) also say, if God chooses one person over another for no reason, that it makes God a monster and that is unfair. Yet God is not obligated to save anybody. It's illogical.

Which is how you "dig the hole deeper" when it comes to these Bible points exposing that flaw in Calvinism.

So since this is apparently "yet another thread" dedicated to Robert Williams not noticing the glaring problems from scripture confronting Calvinism --

I offer this... "again".

The irrefutable problem for Calvinism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



In addition to the irrefutable problem for Calvinism as stated previously we have this...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

[FONT=&quot] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

God was not required to offer the Gospel to the world - but once He sovereignly chose to do it - then He is obligated to make His Word "true".

Calvinism loves the idea that it might be able to go back in time before God made that choice as if to remind Him "Now Lord - remember you don't NEED to choose that" - but we are long past that point in time. He HAS chosen it - now we must all accept His choice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In the Arminian model - this is not God "doing nothing"

God So Loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son -- yes really - John 3:16

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32

"I STAND at the door and knock -- IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door -- I WILL come in" Rev 3

To get to the point of "free will" for sinful fallen man- God does a lot of supernatural things.

======================

That may be "doing nothing" in the Cavlinist model - since in the texts above there is no "arbitrary selection" where God works to save some but not others -- but in the Arminian model it is "God doing something"

Well He certainly is not active.....Rather He sits & waits for the creature to make the decision. Even though the creature is a marred & damaged being .....due to sin, you would have God sit & wait for sin soaked humans (so bad incidentally that they even crucified their savior) to make the final decision. Well I dont buy that.

And your also saying that he draws all mankind to Him then it stands to reason that "All Men are then saved" .....but all men are not saved because there is a hell & some go there. So how can this be that ALL MEN ARE SAVED?

This whole conversation reminds me of the story of a building on fire with the firemen & cops sitting as bystanders with bull horns yelling" anyone alive in there, just yell & we will come in and save you?" Well of course this scenario is ridiculous because the people inside may have been badly hurt or overtaken by smoke or heat or having a roof cave in. But you get my point!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Please explain:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul is preaching to the idolatrous Athenians who had not heard the gospel before. Paul had just finished preaching this great message to these unsaved pagans. Now he tells them that God commands them, as He commands ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT.

It is your contention that God is commanding these men to do something that they are totally unable to do. God is so cruel and capricious that he is commanding these pagans, most of whom (in your opinion) are the non-elect, even after hearing the gospel and having the opportunity to repent, could not repent anyway for God has predestined them to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire separated from Him for all eternity?
What a cruel God that makes a mockery of Christianity and all that Christ stands for in His infinite love!

Clearly, DHK, you need to read between the lines a little more and realize that "ALL men EVERY WHERE" simply means "ALL of the ELECT every where", since everyone knows Paul was a Calvinist. :smilewinkgrin:

It is funny how in none of those verses where it speaks of "all men" or "everyone" or "the whole world" in regards to those whom Christ gave his life for, that it's actually talking about "all men" or "everyone" or the "whole world". The Church had to wait 1500 years to learn what these descriptors truly meant --all in God's good timing, I guess :laugh: .

(But what do I know, I'm just a lowly Pelagian free will idolator :thumbs: )

 

[Robert William]

Please explain:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul is preaching to the idolatrous Athenians who had not heard the gospel before. Paul had just finished preaching this great message to these unsaved pagans. Now he tells them that God commands them, as He commands ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT.

It is your contention that God is commanding these men to do something that they are totally unable to do. God is so cruel and capricious that he is commanding these pagans, most of whom (in your opinion) are the non-elect, even after hearing the gospel and having the opportunity to repent, could not repent anyway for God has predestined them to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire separated from Him for all eternity?
What a cruel God that makes a mockery of Christianity and all that Christ stands for in His infinite love!

All does not mean all all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue21vCvpoqI

 

[DHK]

All does not mean all all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue21vCvpoqI

Only when Calvin says so??
I believe the Bible, not Calvin. God is my authority. Who is yours?
He speaks to me through His Word, not through "The Institutes."
Do you think you need to get your priorities straight?

 

[BobRyan]

Well He certainly is not active.....Rather He sits & waits

no matter what the Bible says to the contrary?

In the Arminian model - this is not God "doing nothing"

God So Loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son -- yes really - John 3:16

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32

"I STAND at the door and knock -- IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door -- I WILL come in" Rev 3

To get to the point of "free will" for sinful fallen man- God does a lot of supernatural things.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]



=======================================

Step 1. First understand what Arminianism is.

Step 2. oppose something that is actually taught if you wish to oppose it.

Just making up a strawman of your own imagination to oppose is a game 'for one'.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]

And your also saying that he draws all mankind to Him then it stands to reason that "All Men are then saved"

only if you use circular logic of inserting Calvinism's definition of "Drawing" which is in truth 'arbitrary selection' -- but the Arminian reading of the text does not "first insert Calvinism" to render the text.

Draw does not mean "irresistibly force" in Arminianism - the way it does in Calvinism... and I think "all" knew that to start with.

t all men are not saved because there is a hell & some go there. So how can this be...

simple. Don't "insert Calvinism" as "step 1".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[PreachTony]

So now I need to flesh this out Tony..... By your defination, what is free will? I am assuming now (remember, I said assuming) that it goes something like this : “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So if this is true then this is what I extrapolate in laymen terms,....you would be saying that God allows humans to do whatever we want to do because God aint a gonna do nothing about it. Do I have that right?

No, EWF, I believe God does assert power and influence over us, and in our lives. I just don't believe He irresistibly forces us to do anything. God will repay. He will visit recompense on those who stand against Him. To my perspective, it is the no-free-will side that has to admit that, if mankind has no free will, then "those who stand against Him" were set up by Him with the express purpose of being destroyed by Him. My side believes that those people of their own accord stood against the Lord and wrought destruction on themselves.

This notion that man has absolutely no input in the process of salvation does not square with the scriptures. I don't believe man can do anything to save himself, but he can reject the offer of God and thereby find himself damned for eternity. But if man has no choice in the matter, then why did so many NT preachers say to those listening "Repent, and believe" or be baptized? Why did they say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," if that can't possibly be the case? The scripture itself posits a humanity with free will to openly accept or reject God.

Your own side of the argument is very quick to admit that man rejects God. But they never seem to want to admit the inverse to that argument: If man can reject God, then man must also be able to accept God.

Amen, I think that is the core issue that causes so many divisions. They (Free willies) also say, if God chooses one person over another for no reason, that it makes God a monster and that is unfair. Yet God is not obligated to save anybody. It's illogical.

Robert, I really don't care if its logical or illogical.....it is the will of God that I stand by. God is by nature righteous & holy....his will will be done. He is not obliged to save anyone. Therefore I see my salvation as a very generous gift, one that I did nothing to deserve....and one I would never have had to take up had it been my choice.....therefore it is even more so a precious gift.

EWF, I agree with you that my salvation is a precious, generous gift. But I know for a fact that I could have rejected it. I could have spurned God when He called my name. I could have gone against the scriptural teaching and quenched the Spirit. I'm thankful that my life has been full of Godly men and women who taught me that when God calls we should answer.

RW - I don't know a single free will believer who thinks God is obligated to do anything for us. It is through His grace, His mercy, and His longsuffering towards humanity that time goes on, the gospel is preached, and men and women are saved. To continually say we think God is obligated to us is nothing more than slandering the opposing side of the discussion.

 

[Robert William]

No, EWF, I believe God does assert power and influence over us, and in our lives. I just don't believe He irresistibly forces us to do anything. God will repay. He will visit recompense on those who stand against Him. To my perspective, it is the no-free-will side that has to admit that, if mankind has no free will, then "those who stand against Him" were set up by Him with the express purpose of being destroyed by Him. My side believes that those people of their own accord stood against the Lord and wrought destruction on themselves.

This notion that man has absolutely no input in the process of salvation does not square with the scriptures. I don't believe man can do anything to save himself, but he can reject the offer of God and thereby find himself damned for eternity. But if man has no choice in the matter, then why did so many NT preachers say to those listening "Repent, and believe" or be baptized? Why did they say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," if that can't possibly be the case? The scripture itself posits a humanity with free will to openly accept or reject God.

Your own side of the argument is very quick to admit that man rejects God. But they never seem to want to admit the inverse to that argument: If man can reject God, then man must also be able to accept God.


EWF, I agree with you that my salvation is a precious, generous gift. But I know for a fact that I could have rejected it. I could have spurned God when He called my name. I could have gone against the scriptural teaching and quenched the Spirit. I'm thankful that my life has been full of Godly men and women who taught me that when God calls we should answer.

RW - I don't know a single free will believer who thinks God is obligated to do anything for us. It is through His grace, His mercy, and His longsuffering towards humanity that time goes on, the gospel is preached, and men and women are saved. To continually say we think God is obligated to us is nothing more than slandering the opposing side of the discussion.

Tony, you can boast that you are better in some way than your neighbor, because you chose to embrace the gospel and he didn't, scripture teaches that you shouldn't have anything to boast about, but you boast that you are smarter, wiser, more loving or something than your neighbor.

Tony, a man choose only according to his sin nature.

If you put a bowl of lettuce and a bowl of meat in front of a dog he will choose the meat every time, it's his nature he is a meat eater.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[PreachTony]

Tony, you can boast that you are better in some way than your neighbor, because you chose to embrace the gospel and he didn't, scripture teaches that you shouldn't have anything to boast about, but you boast that you are smarter, wiser, more loving or something than your neighbor.

You act as though only free will believers would ever think of boasting. Cannot the Calvinist likewise boast that he is better than his neighbor because God chose him and not his neighbor?

I don't know what free will believers you have been around, RW, but if I ever heard someone boasting about being better simply because they accepted the free gift of God, then I would be the first to call them out. We do not boast. If we believe scripture, then we recognize we are saved by grace through faith, not of any work, so that no man can boast. This is applicable to the free will believer as much as to the Calvinist.

By the by, I know you claim not to be a Calvinist, but I don't think I've ever met someone who holds to so much of the Cal doctrine without claiming Calvinism as his own. It's quite impressive.

 

[Robert William]

Only when Calvin says so??
I believe the Bible, not Calvin. God is my authority. Who is yours?
He speaks to me through His Word, not through "The Institutes."
Do you think you need to get your priorities straight?

Better call it the theory of implausibility or universal non - compliance rather than unified theory.:laugh: