Non-Baptist Religions and Security of the Believer

[BobRyan]

As Christ says in John 15 when no fruit is present "They are cut off of the vine and cast into the fire".

This is not the WORKS of the person being burned - it is the Person grafted into the vine - that is cut out and burned... hard to miss

As Christ says in Matt 7 of those whose fruit does not SHOW them to be born-again "the do not enter the kingdom of heaven".

DualHunter, your attempt to work the subject of John 15 into 1Cor 3 is invalid. They are two differnt problems. The work (teaching) that is burned in 1Cor3 has to do with that which is built up by an honest Christian who is sincere - but wrong.

The PERSON burned in John 15 is the one who fails to remain in Christ's Word letting it abide and bear the fruit of "Love, Joy, Peace, Patience"... which ALL Christians must have.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dualhunter]

You are assuming too much. If you light a fire, does that mean you have created hell? Hell does not have exclusive rights to "fire".

Once again I would have benefited from reading the whole passage rather than just one verse. Notice however that in the parable, that while the amount owed is a huge amount (100 days wages), it is finite and eventually will be paid back:

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. - Matthew 18:34 NASB

Hell on the other hand is eternal, it does not end. Christians who don't behave do get disciplined, but they do not go to hell.

 

[BobRyan]

You assume that the person in jail - whose family is sold and who must repay millions in debt (an impossible payment by those standards) is the "saved condition".

It is the "wicked saint" in your view since Christ says "You Wicked Slave". vs 32

It is the tortured saint with Whom the Savior is "angry" vs 34.

Your argument is that "forgiveness" (vs 32) is not "really" forgiveness from sin.

Your position violates every tenant of the illustration as "A Gospel illustration" and makes it teach "Wicked Saints" with whom the savior is Angry and turns them over to "torturers" - that they owe an "impossible debt" but that debt is not the debt of sin.

Clearly - it is not exegesis that gets this out of Matt 18 - it is simply the "need of OSAS".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Watchman]

It is sad, those who add to the finished work of Christ on the cross their own works. It would seem they are making arguments like the following:

It is finished.
No, it is not. My works must be added.

And I shall give onto them eternal life (Always present tense one HAS now eternal life, or does not have it)
No, it is eternal life only IF (I do such and such)

(Concerning the Church) The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
But it will prevail against a part of it.

No man can pluck them out of my Fathers hand.
However, I can do it myself.

For I know in Whom I am believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep...
No, I'll do the keeping.
Charles

[ April 19, 2003, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Watchman ]

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You assume that the person in jail - whose family is sold and who must repay millions in debt (an impossible payment by those standards) is the "saved condition".

Notice that as a slave He belongs to the Lord and he has not ceased to belong to the Lord though is being punished.


Here's a question for you:

Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

[ April 19, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]

 

[BobRyan]

There are no "Christian slaves that owe Christ an impossible debt, that are saved but under his anger, Christians that he is assigning to the torturers - but in a heavenly way".

In a free will system - God does not allow anyone to take us from Him - but Like Adam we are free to leave on our own.

Satan was not big enough to steal Adam and Eve from God - but they could "choose to leave" on their own. The God of love - was not going to force them to obey.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
There is no way to exegete that OSAS position out of Luke 8.

One does not have to exegete every Christian doctrine out every verse or passage or chapter or book. One must build his theology out of the whole Bible. Otherwise he will end up with severe distortions that are not true.

Now, Bob, you may not be able to exegete OSAS out of Luke 8 but you are also looking at it through your presuppositions. Just as someone who believes the Biblical doctrine of OSAS will look at Luke 8 through his presuppositions.

 

[BobRyan]

Fine - can you get OSAS to survive Luke 8?

Show in the "details" in the "Specifics" of Luke 8 how OSAS survives.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Bob, as I said it is not a matter of finding a specific doctrine in every verse or passage or chapter or book. Luke 8 must be read in the context of the whole Bible. The Bible taken as a whole teaches OSAS and Luke 8 must be read in the context of the whole Bible. Luke 8 does not trump Romans chapter 8.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

(Rom 11:22) "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

The unbelieving Jews having been cut off meant they were going to hell, how then can "you will also be cut off" mean anything else such as "lose rewards"? In order to teach this, you must teach that unbelieving Jews will make it to heaven and will merely "lose rewards" due to their unbelief. The preceding verse is even stronger:

(Rom 11:21) "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

In otherwords, it seems that God will more readily cast us off than he did the Jews - they were the natural branches, and as such harder to cast off - we, on the otherhand, are the un-natural branches and have no hope if we cease to believe because God did not even spare the natural branches when they did not believe! In otherwords, the condemnation of a Christian who ceases to believe the truth is WORSE than that of a Jew who never believed it to begin with! This much, Peter says in 2 Pet 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

PS: Ken, are you celbrating the resurrection of Spurgeon this Sunday? 1 Cor 1:13

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003: PS: Ken, are you celbrating the resurrection of Spurgeon this Sunday? 1 Cor 1:13

Nope.

 

[BobRyan]

Ken
Bob, as I said it is not a matter of finding a specific doctrine in every verse or passage or chapter or book. Luke 8 must be read in the context of the whole Bible.

Fine. Exegete Luke 8:4-14 showing that the rocky and thorny ground "human" does not devestatingly obliterate the OSAS doctrine.

Ken
The Bible taken as a whole teaches OSAS and Luke 8 must be read in the context of the whole Bible. Luke 8 does not trump Romans chapter 8.

And it does not need to since Romans 8 does not say "Man has no choice ONCE he accepts Christ he loses the ability to CHOOSE or to rebel as Adam rebelled".

The "LOVE of God" did not "Change". God's love for Adam was as full and strong as His love for you or I. Romans 8 does not say "Recently God's love has improved to the point that now nothing can come in and separate us from God".

Malachi 4 "I DO not CHANGE" says the Lord.

1Cor 15 "Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday today and forever".

Romans 11 - "IF He did not spare the natural branches NEITHER will He spare you".

You need to exegete Luke 8:4-14 rather than finding more excuses to ignore it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Bob,

Those that do not persevere were never saved in the first place. Jesus is the author and finisher of faith. He doesn't leave the job halfway done.

Look, Bob, if you want to spend your time on earth worried that you might be cast away due to a human failing on your part, go ahead. If that's the only way for you to avoid going into some deep, dark sin, then go ahead and worry.

As for me, I am totally confident in my Lord Jesus Christ as it's not me that is holding on to Him, but my Lord Jesus Christ Who is holding on to me. I am in the grip of His grace.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

It's funny how Calvinists think that Scripture spends so much time warning those who have no chance anyway. Why would Paul warn the unregenerate to "take heed lest he fall"? He's unregenerate to begin with, right? So, how can he fall? You have to be standing up to fall! Obviously then, the warning "take heed lest ye fall" is not given to men who are already lying dead on the ground, but to men who are standing - that is, to Christians!

PS: I see you're still celebrating the resurrection of Spurgeon. 1 Cor 1:13

 

[BobRyan]

Ken
Those that do not persevere were never saved in the first place. ...As for me, I am totally confident in my Lord Jesus Christ

Ahhh once again "Proof"!!

The Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today -

But the Calvinist can't even know THAT - until he sees himself "perservere all they way through 20 years from now".

The Calvinist that is confident TODAY but then fails to perservere 10 years later must say -- as does Ken above - I never was saved in the first place.

But they call this "not worrying"??!!

How instructive for the careful reader!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Ken
Those that do not persevere were never saved in the first place. ...As for me, I am totally confident in my Lord Jesus Christ

Ahhh once again "Proof"!!

The Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today -

But the Calvinist can't even know THAT - until he sees himself "perservere all they way through 20 years from now".

The Calvinist that is confident TODAY but then fails to perservere 10 years later must say -- as does Ken above - I never was saved in the first place.

But they call this "not worrying"??!!

How instructive for the careful reader!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]It's not an idea exclusive to Calvinism:

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

Not only that but it has no conflict with assurance. Faith is not a currency, salvation is not earned by faith anymore than it is by works. God has told us that we've all sinned and are under His righteous wrath and that the only way we can be saved is to trust in Christ. Faith in regards to salvation is trusting God that we are fully unable to save ourselves and therefore fully dependant on Christ to save us. Once you've chosen to depend on God alone, recognizing your necessity to be saved from your sins and that Jesus is the only one who can save you, there's no turning back, your life is now in God's hands for you have surrendered it back to Him who made it. If a person turns back, it shows that they did not really trust God alone because if they had, they would have no where else to go having truly recognized their fallen state and need to be redeemed by Christ the one and only savior. Adam, in the garden, was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, nor had he surrendered his life to God. God gave Adam, his life and Adam chose to lose it and dying he died. A born again Christian has entrusted his or her life to God, given that it is now in God's hand, it is not in the Christian's hand any more and so the Christian cannot walk away with it because he or she no longer owns it having surrendered it to God who is faithful to keep it. Christians have died with Christ, and likewise they have been raised with Him, and like Him they will not die again, death no longer has any power over them, for they are in God's hand and none can snatch them from His hand.


You and I are both created things by the way. So once again, who will separate us from the love of Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

"Who could separate Adam from the Love of God"??

No one. He CHOSE sin.

And so was Adam "The son of God" LOST? Really Lost?? Yes. But "who was so powerful that they could separate Adam from God's Love"? No one!!

It's not an idea exclusive to Calvinism:

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

This merely shows ONE of the 3 types of ground in Luke 8:4-14. The one where NO life was EVER there.

It is not a denial of the other 2 types of ground where LIFE DID emerge but failed to CONTINUE.

Not only that but it has no conflict with assurance. Faith is not a currency, salvation is not earned by faith

The OSAS of Calvinism says that IF you don't PERSERVERE you never WERE saved no matter HOW much ASSURANCE you "thought" you had.

5 point Calvinism can't have "assurance" that even TODAY's salvation is "REAL" until it sees PERSERVERENCE 20 years from now.

Arminian views DO have valid "assurance TODAY". In the Arminian model - TODAY's assurance is never "retro deleted" as in Calvinism's OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but I do believe what the Bible teaches. Please consider this verse:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I "believe" on him.
Accordingly, I "have" (present tense) everlasting life.

What then do I have?
Please define "everlasting life?"
If I could lose "everlasting life" would it still be "everlasting life," or would Christ then be a liar?
DHK

 

[Frank]

Men may chose to accept or reject Christ. John 12:48. Many times John 10: 29 is used as a text for osas. However, in John 6: 66-68 many of his disciples turned and walked no more with him. Jesus asked his 12 will ye also go away. One is preserved and held by choice, according to Jesus.

 

[hrhema]

I John 2:17 John declared: "And this world is fading away, along with everything it craves. BUT IF YOU DO THE WILL OF GOD YOU WILL LIVE FOREVER."

John said that if we do the will of God we will live forever. Look at the word IF. This signifies something we must do to keep salvation.

So many talk about you don't lose salvation but just fellowship, lets look at what John said about that. Chapter 2 and verse 24: "So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning, if you do you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. AND IN THIS FELLOWSHIP WE ENJOY THE ETERNAL LIFE HE PROMISED US." What more clearly
words then are these. We must continue in fellowship to enjoy eternal life.

Let's look at Chapter 3 of this book. John declared: "Anyone who hates ANOTHER Christian is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don't have eternal life within them."

John was speaking to Christians about hating other Christians. He made it very clear what the reward would be for this sin. Not having eternal life.

Peter said it would be better if we had never known the truth then to have known it and then REJECT IT. So for those who say true believers cannot reject God this proves different. He said they have wandered off the right road. He said these Christians are like dogs who returns to its vomit and a washed pig returning to the mud.
He went on to say that he did not want the Christians to be carried away by error and lose their sure footing.

Both Peter and Jude spoke about Christians who had turned away from God.

Why anyone argues with the writer of Hebrews if beyond me.

"For IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore to repentance those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, THOSE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN AND SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO HAVE TASTED THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWER OF THE AGE TO COME AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD." hEBREW 6:4-6.

This scripture refutes OSAS but people who believe in this easy believism scoffs at this scripture. It proves a Christian can turn away from God.

Everytime they quote this scripture about the Hand of God they are being foolish. It states that NO MAN can remove us. It does not state that we cannot remove ourselves.

When you look at John 6 people do not distinguish in whom Jesus speaks of. That he would not lose even one of them was directed to the Apostles. We know that from the next chapter then later on in another chapter he repeats himself.

I hear what DHK and others who hold to OSAS say about sin but the majority of people I have been around all my life who believe in OSAS live very sinful lives. Why is this? It is because they believe that they can live in sin and be saved.
They believe they don't have to obey commandments yet John says otherwise and so did Jesus.

This is why I would not bring visitors who are unbelievers to certain churches because when they saw the life these so called Christians live they would not want any part of the Christian life.