Non-Baptist Religions and Security of the Believer

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:

I hear what DHK and others who hold to OSAS say about sin but the majority of people I have been around all my life who believe in OSAS live very sinful lives. Why is this? It is because they believe that they can live in sin and be saved.
They believe they don't have to obey commandments yet John says otherwise and so did Jesus.

This is a nice way of saying that you believe experiences more than you believe the Bible. You have said what you have seen, what you have experienced, and therefore that is what you believe.
But you cannot answer to what the Bible says. I believe what I believe because the Bible teaches it, not because of what other people practice. I don't base my salvation on other peoples mediocrity, apathy, hypocrisy or downright sinfulness. I base my beliefs on the Word of God. I am grounded on what God's Word says. You seem to be grounded on experiences. You have a very shaky foundation.
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Men may chose to accept or reject Christ. John 12:48. Many times John 10: 29 is used as a text for osas. However, in John 6: 66-68 many of his disciples turned and walked no more with him. Jesus asked his 12 will ye also go away. One is preserved and held by choice, according to Jesus.

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Those who are living right know they are saved regardless - OSAS only assures those who aren't living right that they will receive the opposite of what they actually will recieve.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
Those who are living right know they are saved regardless - OSAS only assures those who aren't living right that they will receive the opposite of what they actually will recieve.

Living right will not save you. Believing in Christ will.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but I do believe what the Bible teaches. Please consider this verse:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I "believe" on him.
Accordingly, I "have" (present tense) everlasting life.

What then do I have?
Please define "everlasting life?"
If I could lose "everlasting life" would it still be "everlasting life," or would Christ then be a liar?

A 5-point Calvinist would accept that AND would accept the "perserverence" texts showing that "IF you remain faithful FIRM until the end" must ALSO be true to be considered a "SAVED" person under OSAS.

The problem with that of course is that it would be impossible to know TODAY that you are saved until you "see yourself perservere" tomorrow. (Since they retro-delete salvation if you fail).

The problem with the model that you choose for OSAS is that it must reject the Bible teaching on "perserverance" so that it can have BOTH OSAS AND "assurance" today.

I choose to believe the "assurance" and "perserverence" AND the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked model" are all true.

We are told that Christ will glorify those who believe on him (Romans 10) - but that does not mean we are "already glorified". The promose of eternal life is fully realized for those who "perservere FIRM until the end" according to Paul.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The context of I John 2:19 is about former disciples who went out from them. They apostasized. They willingly left the truth for error. They refused to obey from the heart the doctrine of Christ. The antecedent of they is the word " antichrist" of the preceeding verse. The preposition ek rendered " out from" indicates origin from center; and these were, therefore, formerly among the disciples, and members of the church.( The letter is addressed to Chrisitan children, fathers, young men). ( I John 2:12,13).
They were not " Of" the disciples i.e they did not have the same spirit of obedience characteristic of the disciples. Notice:
1. They were with the disciples.
2. They went out from them.
3. One does NOT go out form a placece he has not been.
4. Had they had the same love for God and equal desire to serve him as those from whom they went out, they would have continued with them. Romans 6:17,18.
5. Therefore, they did, in fact, continue for a time and then ceased to be faithful.
Conclusion:
There was no necessity from without which made it impossible for these people to forsake the right way. They were under no compulsion such as would have been true if the doctrine of decrees and predestination, as taught by the Calvinists is true. Some obey the gospel and, like him of whom the Savior spoke in the parable of the soils, " heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it: yet hath not root in himself, but endureth for a while: when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightwayhe stumbeleth." ( Mat. 13:20,21). Others, like those of the TEXT adopt false and heretical doctrines, forsake the church and shipwreck concerning the faith. ( Tim. 1:19).
Osas advocates feebly attempt to use this passage to assert the impossibility of apostasy by suggesting those in the text are pretenders and were never sincere. An examination of the text shows this idea to be false.

 

[Dualhunter]

Stop twisting scripture, just read it:

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

 

[hrhema]

DHK: You took one statement I made and posted about that but ignored the rest. This is typical of people who believe OSAS. They ignore the scriptures that teach against this doctrine.

You don't have to live right to be saved. That is typical garbage taught by those who believe in easy believism. That is why every Christian survey that has been taken lately with people from the ages of 18 to 45 have stated that 90% of them surveyed DO NOT BELIEVE IN ABSOLUTES.

One of the questions asked was about Adultery and Fornication and again 85% of them surveyed said times had changed and we can no longer go by what happened in Biblical times this is modern society.

This is exactly what telling people they don't have to live right has created. A monster.
It has created individuals with no morals and who do not believe in absolutes.

John wrote: "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will NOT SIN. but if you DO SIN, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. (PROVES YOU HAVE TO ASK FORGIVENESS FOR PRESENT SINS) He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely. He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the World. And how can we be sure THAT WE BELONG TO HIM, BY OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS. IF SOMEONE SAYS I BELONG TO GOD BUT DOESN'T OBEY GOD'S COMMANDMENTS, THAT PERSON IS A LIAR AND DOES NOT LIVE IN THE TRUTH. BUT THOSE WHO DBEY GOD'S WORD REALLY DO LOVE HIM. THAT IS THE WAY TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT WE LIVE IN HIM. THOSE WHO SAY THEY LIVE IN GOD SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES AS CHRIST DID. 1 jOHN 2:1-6.

"So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the Devil. ANYONE WHO DOES NOT OBEY GOD'S COMMANDS AND DOES NOT LOVE OTHER CHRISTIANS DOES NOT BELONG TO GOD. 1 jOHN 3:10.

"THOSE WHBEY GOD'S COMMANDMENTS LIVE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM, AND HE WITH THEM. 1 John 3:24.

"LOVING GOD MEANS KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS AND REALLY THAT ISN'T DIFFICULT." 1 John 5:3.

"I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4.

John made it very clear that yes we do have to obey the commandments of God and if we do not then we do not love him nor are we part of him.
A person cannot be saved if they do not love God and or not a part of him. That is obvious.

Peter said: "So, dear friends, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away. And God will open wide the gates of heaven for you to enter into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:11.

It is obvious Peter believed Christians could fall away for he went on to say:" ANd when people escape from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and then get tangled up with sin and become its slave again, they are WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE. IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THEY HAD NEVER KNOWN THE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE THAN TO KNOW IT AND THEN REJECT THE HOLY COMMANDMENTS THAT WERE GIVEN TO THEM." 2 Peter 2:20-21.

James wrote: "My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you WANDERS AWAY FROM THE TRUTH, AND IS BROUGHT BACK AGAIN, YOU BE BE SURE THAT THE ONE WHO BRINGS THAT PERSON BACK WILL SAVE THAT SINNER FROM DEATH AND BRING ABOUT THE FORGIVENESS OF MANY SINS." jAMES 5:19.

James called the person who wanders away a sinner and that they were saved from death. What death? Eternal death.

The writer of Hebrews wrote: "What makes us think that we can escape if we are indifferent to this great salvation that was announced by the Lord Jesus himself." Hebrrews 2:3. Just before this the writer was talking about punishment for breaking of the law and disobedience to God.

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The text in context teaches waht I have posted. The origianl language so indicates. I do not know a better way to interpret scripture than to: 1). look up the meanings of words from their original language.2). Consider to WHOM the letter was written. 3). What is revealed. 4). Consider the implications from what is written. 5).Consider other evidence on the subject. 6). Consider the harmony of the interpretation with the rest of the evidence on the subject.7). Make ONLY those conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. This is called the Law of Rationality. My last post demonstrates these principles of interpretation. Therefore, based on the evidence and sound hermeneuitcal principles I properly interpretred the text,your unsubstantiated assertion notwithstanding.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
DHK: You took one statement I made and posted about that but ignored the rest. This is typical of people who believe OSAS. They ignore the scriptures that teach against this doctrine.

hrhema,
I took one Scripture, and you ignored it. This is typical of people who don't believe in a proper view of salvation. They ignore the Scriptures that teach sound doctrine. Lest you forget I'll post it again. This time address the post. Answer just the verse posted.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I "believe" on him.
Accordingly, I "have" (present tense) everlasting life.

What then do I have?
Please define "everlasting life?"
If I could lose "everlasting life" would it still be "everlasting life," or would Christ then be a liar?
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dual:
The text in context teaches waht I have posted. The origianl language so indicates. I do not know a better way to interpret scripture than to: 1). look up the meanings of words from their original language.2). Consider to WHOM the letter was written. 3). What is revealed. 4). Consider the implications from what is written. 5).Consider other evidence on the subject. 6). Consider the harmony of the interpretation with the rest of the evidence on the subject.7). Make ONLY those conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. This is called the Law of Rationality. My last post demonstrates these principles of interpretation. Therefore, based on the evidence and sound hermeneuitcal principles I properly interpretred the text,your unsubstantiated assertion notwithstanding.

The context does not teach what you posted. You used the law of scripture twisting, not rationality. If you were rational, you'd take God at His word.

 

[hrhema]

DHK: YOu have taken the scripture and twisted. If you had eternal life you my friend would never die. You don't have eternal life no more than any other human on this Earth has it. THese scriptures are promises made to Christians that they may be saved in the end. These scriptures do not guarantee that. Again quit taking two or three scriptures and twisting them to teach a doctrine that is not scriptural and ignoring all the others.

John made it clear that we are to obey God's commandments and if we do not then we are not part of him and if we are not part of him he said we do not have eternal life. Peter said the very same thing. Those who believe in OSAS say we don't have to obey God's commandments based on a scripture they twist that Paul wrote.

The scriptures deal with sin and works. Works are things we do for God. These are not sins.
These are what Paul was speaking of. Not morality. OSASers cannot understand that. If Paul was speaking on these things he would not have said later we don't lie, steal, kill, commit adulterty etc. etc. This is exactly what Jude said is that people teach that you can live any way you want to because of God's mercy and grace and that is not true. This is why Jesus said that he will tell many who claim to be saved that he never knew them. NEVER.

 

[FRED WILSON]

The Bible says;Romans 3;23-For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6;23-For the wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OUR PROBLEM,SEPARATION
God created us in His own image to have an abundant life.He did not make us as robots to automatically love and obey Him,but gave us a will and a freedom of choice.

We chose to disobey God and go our own way.We still make this choice today.This results in separation from God.

God Bless.

 

[Frank]

Dual:
It is obvious from your statements you either know very litle about hermeneutical principles of interpretation or you just enjoy making unsubstantiated claims about scripture due to your desire to defend some man made theological system. In either case, the truth of the scripture and the harmony of the Bible on this topic will not change because you do not like it or prefer to make ignorant accusations about hermeneutics or people who use them.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dual:
It is obvious from your statements you either know very litle about hermeneutical principles of interpretation or you just enjoy making unsubstantiated claims about scripture due to your desire to defend some man made theological system. In either case, the truth of the scripture and the harmony of the Bible on this topic will not change because you do not like it or prefer to make ignorant accusations about hermeneutics or people who use them.

How ironic that your words apply so well to you.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
DHK: YOu have taken the scripture and twisted. If you had eternal life you my friend would never die. You don't have eternal life no more than any other human on this Earth has it. THese scriptures are promises made to Christians that they may be saved in the end. These scriptures do not guarantee that. Again quit taking two or three scriptures and twisting them to teach a doctrine that is not scriptural and ignoring all the others.

So this is a simple admission that you don't believe the Bible. Answer my questions concerning John 5:24 directly and honestly and it will demonstrate your unbelief.

Concerning eternal life, yes I have eternal life right now. If I were to die right now I would go straight to heaven. I know that as surey as if I had already been there a thousand years. God has already given me the "gift of eternal life" ((Rom. 6:23).
He has said in His Word:

1John 5:10-13
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Consider carefully: He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar You have just put yourself in that position: You believe not God on these Scriptures, and are calling God a liar.

Verse 11: What is eternal life? Eternal life is in God's Son.

Verse 12: Who has eternal life? He that has (prsent tense) has the Son has eternal life. He that has not the Son of God has not eternal life. I know that I have the Son of God dwelling in me. I know that I presently have eternal life.

Verse 13: Why were these things written? These were written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. It does not say shall have. It says that you may know that you may have. There is certainty expressed here. There is certainty expressed all throughout this passage.
He that has the son has life; he that has not the Son of God has not life.
Do you have the Son of God, or are you content to make God a liar.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The words posted were to you. No one else. There is no irony in my post.1. The context of I John 2: 19 is adressed to Christian fathers and children and young men. The Bible says in I John 2:11, ¶I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Your accusation that I ignored contest is simply an ERROR ON YOUR PART. Again, you use unsound principles of interpretation by ignoring the contest or to whom the missive is written. It still reads as posted. it was adressed to Christian fathers, young men, and children.
2. These passages along with verse 19 are in complete harmony with those previously posted. In John 6:66-68 the Bible says, "66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
The parable of the soils demonstrates the principle of apostasy as well. In Mat. 13:20,21, But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Again, you ignore the principle of harmony in interpreting the text. However, I accept all the evidence.
3. The implications of the text are that one who follows may also choose to cease his walk with Christ. One cannot go out from someone they are not with in the first place. The original language and logic will not allow for such a thing. The greek word ek means out from. Again, you ignore word meanings. I acknowledge them in interpreting scripture.
4. The word they is the antecedent of antichrist. Again, proper understanding of language is the one and only way anyone can communicate with another.
5. I have no man made theological system to defend. I am not aligned with any ist or ism in any way. Again, it is obvious from your " One Verse Wonder" approach to truth you feel the need to do so. Certainly, no irony on that point either.

 

[Dualhunter]

3. The implications of the text are that one who follows may also choose to cease his walk with Christ. One cannot go out from someone they are not with in the first place. The original language and logic will not allow for such a thing. The greek word ek means out from. Again, you ignore word meanings. I acknowledge them in interpreting scripture.

The verse says that those who go out from the congregation of Christians (i.e. physically leave), show that they were never truly part of that congrgation (i.e. never born again) and that their leaving is what shows that they were never really Christians. Instead of reinterpreting scripture, let it speak for itself.

It is your beliefs that are clearly man-made simply because they dependant on man's effort. Fallen man is offensive in the sight of God, he has nothing to offer God and any system that claims otherwise is clearly man-made.

 

[Frank]

Dual:
You have made errors in the following:
1. The original language of the text does not support your assertion. Get a lexicon and look it up!
2. The grammatical construct and meaning of the words prove you are wrong.
3. The totality of the harmonious evidence proves you are wrong. You just ignore it. John 6:66-68, Mat. 13:20,21.
Again, "one verse wonder" interpretations are often time false. You have proved this each time you make your argument about this passage.

 

[hrhema]

DHK: I don't accept your interpretation of that scripture for your interpretation does not coincide with other scriptures written by John.

"My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. BUT IF YOU DO SIN, THERE IS SOMEONE TO PLEAD FOR YOU BEFORE THE FATHER. HE IS JESUS CHRIST, THE ONE WHO PLEASES GOD COMPLETELY." 1 jOHN 2:1-2.

The reason believers will not be condemned for their sins is exactly what John wrote later in life. We have an advocate with the Father who when we ask his forgiveness gives it to us.

I will not ever interpret the scripture you are quoting in such a way that it allows Christians to live in sin because I do not want their blood
on my hands. There are too many scriptures that say we have to obey commandments and that those who sin won't go to Heaven. The way OSAS believers interpret that scripture is that they can live in sin as much they want and still make Heaven.

I will tell of experiences because they do have a bearing on life. These experiences have destroyed many a soul. Sinners look at Christians not to be perfect but at least to not live like they do and when they see thousands of so called Christians lying and cheating and stealing and committing adultery and into porno and on and on it turns them away from Christ.
This doctrine teaches exactly what Jude warned of.

"I say this because SOME GODLESS PEOPLE have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives."

These are words in the Bible thousands of years ago. This same doctrine was trying to circulate through the church then and was condemned. Easy believism.

The Devil and his demons believe and tremble. Are they saved? Hardly. So if all that it takes to be saved is believe then we will all enter heaven with Satan and his minions.

The Jews believed that going to temple or synagogue, eating kosher, washing of hands, following passover and other Jewish festivals,
wearing certain clothing, being circumcised etc etc was what saved them. These things are works.
These things are what Paul was talking about when he said Works cannot save us. He was not talking about sin.

Was Paul ignorant. Of Course not. Did not Paul know that man cannot overcome sin and do fail and do sin. Of course. Paul knew no man could boast that he was without sin. John said anyone who said that was a liar. PAul was talking about ceremonial law and works not sin. This is exactly why Jesus is going to tell people they will not inherit Heaven. He is going to say I NEVER KNEW YOU. Yes, to believers.