Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you tell a sinner about jesus, one who has not been saved yet by God, do you pray that God would open them up to receive and act upon what they heard?

No.....I said that before. If I tell a sinner about Jesus & he is meant to hear & understand then thats Gods will, not mine. If he isn't saved & he rejects Christ then thats fine too....again it's all in His very capable hands.

so do you think anyone that God has selected for salvation will get missed & then go to hell? Can God be a mess up?

 

[JonC]

You need to get out more JDF! What ever brand of Arminians you're surrounded by must be half a bubble off level. I don't know of any that stumble over "Thy will be done..." in the Lord's prayer.

You might be surprised to know there are Arminians that can read these words in James and offer a hearty AMEN!

James 4:13-15 NAS77
13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15 Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You need to get out more JDF! What ever brand of Arminians you're surrounded by must be half a bubble off level. I don't know of any that stumble over "Thy will be done..." in the Lord's prayer.

You might be surprised to know there are Arminians that can read these words in James and offer a hearty AMEN!

James 4:13-15 NAS77
13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15 Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."

Sorry, but the Finneyists here and on that cesspool, OnlineBaptist, don't exactly strike me as wonderful as you would have me believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe that God desires that none should perish and that He has provided the means needed to save all, but not that that He leaves the ultimate choice with man.

The bible does not teach this anywhere.

 

[JonC]

The bible does not teach this anywhere.

You believe God desires some (I take it not all) to perish. I know we disagree here and I understand our disagreement (for me those who perish are not abiding by God's desire for men but are in active rebellion). This is not of course saying that Gods will is not being accomplished, and I am sure we agree here.

 

[Luke2427]

Freedom of Will is simply a-priori fact...
It's not a "gift".
It just is.

It just is?

How did it come to be?

Who made it possible and why?

 

[Luke2427]

That is only so if a man's praying for the lost is arbitrary and not previously interrelated to what God will do in a man's heart.

In some sense, an Arminian can agree with the Calvinist that God has pre-destined the MEANS as well as the salvation of the elect. Not in the same way...

But enough such that God is able to both "do all he can" and also work through the prayers of the Saints as well. The prayers of the saints aren't arbitrary while God's choice to call all men isn't. An Arminian would likely assume they work in perfect harmony with one another, even if they aren't positive how exactly God does so.

So then God tries as hard as he can to save those who are not being prayed for and then he tries as hard as he can to save those who are being prayed for because they are being prayed for?

So... what difference does the praying make?

The one not prayed for gets every bit of God's effort to save him without the prayers and the one being prayed for gets every bit of God's effort to save him AS A RESULT of the prayers.

So... what difference does the praying make?

 

[Revmitchell]

Sorry, but the Finneyists here and on that cesspool, OnlineBaptist, don't exactly strike me as wonderful as you would have me believe.

So who are you that anyone should "strike" you as being anything?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So who are you that anyone should "strike" you as being anything?

I'm a man who has the same right to an opinion you do.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC;

Hello JonC....we need to step back and see the overall teaching of scripture..

You believe God desires some (I take it not all) to perish.

Jon....No. I believe God has planned and purposed to save a multitude in His Son. This plan existed before time. God seeing all mankind as fallen and in rebellion elected a multitude of guilty sinners to be saved by the blood of the cross. He is longsuffering with this sinful rebellious world until He saves all these elected sinners who were given to the Son. God saves by Covenant.

I know we disagree here and I understand our disagreement (for me those who perish are not abiding by God's desire for men but are in active rebellion).

all unsaved are in active rebellion...there is no neutral ground. Men are responsible.

This is not of course saying that Gods will is not being accomplished, and I am sure we agree here.

JonC many things that God has done in history disprove the notion that He desires such a thing as every man being saved.....scattering the people and language kept many ignorant of the Covenant.

 

[psalms109:31]

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, Jesus Christ.

In this he tells us to pray for them.

1 Timothy 2
New International Version (NIV)
Instructions on Worship

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Will all men be saved, no not all men will come to the knowledge of the truth, Jesus.

I see this as a message to send us out to reach them having the desire of God because no one seeks God so He sends us out to seek them.

1 Corinthians 3:
7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Luke 10:2
He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Corinthians 2:
14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ’s triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task? 17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.

 

[steaver]

JonC;

God seeing all mankind as fallen and in rebellion elected a multitude of guilty sinners to be saved by the blood of the cross........

.........Men are responsible.

This is an Arminian pov you are stating here.... that God sees what will happen so God responds in His plan and saves. It is God who planned the fall of His creation so that in this fall God would glorify Himself in Jesus Christ.

God made all men responsible, therefore to be a Just God, God elected to save those who would respond in faith to His Gospel Truth. Many are called, few are chosen.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tony......Now your an Arminian!:tongue3:

Too funny! :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

C.H. Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm

Just being consistent with Spurgeon.

I believe if we don't pray or witness with the right heart we cannot do the work that God has prepared us in advance to do as God desires.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Hello steaver....did you fail to wake up properly or did not have your morning coffee yet?

This is an Arminian pov you are stating here

....

There are NO Arminian verses or POV in the bible at all.

that God sees what will happen

The bible is pre-suppositional...so were my brief thumbnail comments to JONC.

In beginning God.....when Moses writes this.....the decree is already being unfolded in time. Do not re-read anything back in to it as that is counter-productive...look how it has confused all of your posting on this topic.:laugh:

so God responds in His plan and saves.

This is the perspective of fallen man trying to make a god in his fallen image.The biblical God never does such as His perfection does not allow for it.

It is God who planned the fall of His creation so that in this fall God would glorify Himself in Jesus Christ.

You cannot make such a simplistic and generic statement without a survey of biblical teaching on this....you say .....God who planned the fall...based on what? that the fall took place?

God made all men responsible, therefore to be a Just God,

...too be a just God How about ......God being just and Holy

God elected to save

That is what he did.

those who would respond in faith to His Gospel Truth.

There is no such person,,,this person did not exist, this is a denial of the reality of the fall.....this is why you error.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

[/QUOTE]

The Incarnate love of God manifests himself on earth...and this is the heart of all men........and ye would not.....all men are responsible..but are unwilling and unable because of the fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tony......Now your an Arminian!:tongue3:

Too funny! :laugh:

...my Arminian tendencies just slip out from time to time...the other cals are nervous when I post that I will quote from Wesley, or finney at any time.:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

steaver

Hello steaver....did you fail to wake up properly or did not have your morning coffee yet?

....

There are NO Arminian verses or POV in the bible at all.



The bible is pre-suppositional...so were my brief thumbnail comments to JONC.

In beginning God.....when Moses writes this.....the decree is already being unfolded in time. Do not re-read anything back in to it as that is counter-productive...look how it has confused all of your posting on this topic.:laugh:


This is the perspective of fallen man trying to make a god in his fallen image.The biblical God never does such as His perfection does not allow for it.


You cannot make such a simplistic and generic statement without a survey of biblical teaching on this....you say .....God who planned the fall...based on what? that the fall took place?


...too be a just God How about ......God being just and Holy


That is what he did.



There is no such person,,,this person did not exist, this is a denial of the reality of the fall.....this is why you error.

[/B]

The Incarnate love of God manifests himself on earth...and this is the heart of all men........and ye would not.....all men are responsible..but are unwilling and unable because of the fall.[/QUOTE]

See Tony, Steve is on a mission......your seeing that now I hope!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...my Arminian tendencies just slip out from time to time...the other cals are nervous when I post that I will quote from Wesley, or finney at any time.:laugh:

LOL......Wait for the question on Assurance, its coming! :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that God desires that none should perish and that He has provided the means needed to save all, but not that that He leaves the ultimate choice with man.

So are you advocating for a 4 point Calvinistic belief, in that while Jesus did indeed die as the sin bearer for ALL sinners, God Himself still decided just to whom the benefit of His death will be applied towards, His elect based upon his will, not seeing that some would decided by free will to come to Christ?

 

[JonC]

JonC;

Hello JonC....we need to step back and see the overall teaching of scripture..


Jon....No. I believe God has planned and purposed to save a multitude in His Son. This plan existed before time. God seeing all mankind as fallen and in rebellion elected a multitude of guilty sinners to be saved by the blood of the cross. He is longsuffering with this sinful rebellious world until He saves all these elected sinners who were given to the Son. God saves by Covenant.


all unsaved are in active rebellion...there is no neutral ground. Men are responsible.




JonC many things that God has done in history disprove the notion that He desires such a thing as every man being saved.....scattering the people and language kept many ignorant of the Covenant.

Yes…to sum it up there is a bit where we disagree. I actually do see in Scripture God desiring all to be obedient and all repent. Otherwise their disobedience and un-repentance is in no way rebellion and God is a charlatan by showing wrath when the rebellious sinner is actually pleasing God in their sinfulness. But God does not desire men to sin...hence it is rebellion and sin. I don’t think that you can convince me that God does not desire all to believe - although I do believe that those who He has elected will be saved (and the lost are not thwarting God’s plan by not believing).