Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

[Iconoclast]

JonC

[QUOTE I don’t think that you can convince me that God does not desire all to believe ][/QUOTE]


In light of the covenant being revealed.....this idea that you are thinking of,,,is not biblical. God desires all kinds of men to believe....not all men...This idea that somehow God cannot accomplish anything He has purposed is not possible;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass;[B] I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/B]


psa109

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, Jesus Christ.

In this he tells us to pray for them

and then again...we have this;
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[JonC]

JonC

[QUOTE I don’t think that you can convince me that God does not desire all to believe ]

In light of the covenant being revealed.....this idea that you are thinking of,,,is not biblical. God desires all kinds of men to believe....not all men...
[/QUOTE]

:wavey: Hey Icon,

Perhaps you have just worked it out better than I. Consider me the weaker brother for believing that God desires all to believe while sovereignly working out His will. We are just not going to agree here, so lets leave it at that (there are other things I don't understand as well, so this won't damper my faith).

 

[psalms109:31]

When something does not agree with you put a new meaning into the text the Holy Spirit needs your help to correct Him and set Him straight.

God in some scripture is out side of time knowing all who will be saved and some scripture is God inside time having a personal relationship working to bring us to Christ. Some people have a problem distinguishing because we are men living inside time trying to understand a God living outside of time. We are responsible to come and if you turn away from God you are responsible for that to. Jesus Christ is responsible to save those who come to Him

We are chosen in Christ, we are in the covenant in Him.

The new creation those who are born again by the enduring word of God are the one chosen. Jesus is the one chosen. There is no way my old creation was chosen before the foundation of the world. I am saved in Christ the new creation because of Him and what He has done.

I can not reconcile most of the Scriptures out of the scriptures to satisfy my will not to be responsible for what I have done with the word of life to make me the new creation born again.


Paul would never try to convince unbelievers they were chosen before the foundation of the world because they are not.

 

[steaver]

There are NO Arminian verses or POV in the bible at all.

Good answer :smilewinkgrin: . There are NO Calvinist Apostles either :laugh:

You cannot make such a simplistic and generic statement without a survey of biblical teaching on this....you say .....God who planned the fall...based on what? that the fall took place?

It was you who once said to me, "If it has come to pass, it has been ordained of God".

If there is no fall, there is no glorification of Jesus Christ. Now, did God plan the fall? Think about it. Or did God see what would happen and develop a plan before it took place?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now, did God plan the fall? Think about it. Or did God see what would happen and develop a plan before it took place?

What's the Bible tell you....or is it silent on the subject?

 

[Aaron]

I know the question is posed to non-Cals, but I still want to answer as a Calvinists. My prayer for my fellow man, who is my brother according to the flesh, is that he will be saved.

Why? Because I love his Creator and I love Him, and my desire is to see him saved, and I'm instructed to make my requests "known unto God," though He already knows.

There are those on this earth that I love more than others. (I cannot love those of whom I do not know.) So I pray for them more, and my prayers on their behalf are ordained of God.

Thank God that He sends some to intercede for me!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know the question is posed to non-Cals, but I still want to answer as a Calvinists. My prayer for my fellow man, who is my brother according to the flesh, is that he will be saved.

Why? Because I love his Creator and I love Him, and my desire is to see him saved, and I'm instructed to make my requests "known unto God," though He already knows.

There are those on this earth that I love more than others. (I cannot love those of whom I do not know.) So I pray for them more, and my prayers on their behalf are ordained of God.

Thank God that He sends some to intercede for me!

God Aaron......What is wrong with you!?! ROFL. :laugh:

 

[Van]

Now if the Calvinist God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and told Adam not to eat of it, and allowed Satan to temp Eve, I think it is not too far a stretch to say God arranged the Fall. This avoids the idea that God predestined the Fall, making God and not Adam responsible for his volitional sin.

 

[steaver]

The Incarnate love of God manifests himself on earth...and this is the heart of all men........and ye would not.....all men are responsible..but are unwilling and unable because of the fall.

This answer to Jesus' pleading for the lost is beyond weak, it is an ignoring of the text all together. No Calvinist has ever answered this text without ignoring Jesus' pleading. Jesus says that He pleads (the part you are missing and will not deal with) with Israel, and they would not (declaring to them and to us that they indeed had a choice)

 

[Luke2427]

Now if the Calvinist God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and told Adam not to eat of it, and allowed Satan to temp Eve, I think it is not too far a stretch to say God arranged the Fall. This avoids the idea that God predestined the Fall, making God and not Adam responsible for his volitional sin.

Responsible to whom?

To whom is it that God must give account for this action?

 

[Iconoclast]

This answer to Jesus' pleading for the lost is beyond weak, it is an ignoring of the text all together. No Calvinist has ever answered this text without ignoring Jesus' pleading. Jesus says that He pleads (the part you are missing and will not deal with) with Israel, and they would not (declaring to them and to us that they indeed had a choice)

They make a choice everyday..........and ye would not.....they make the same choice being bound in sin.........and nd ye would not........God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked....but they will go into second death.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Responsible to whom?

To whom is it that God must give account for this action?

VERY Good Question.....and there lies the difference in prospective.

 

[steaver]

They make a choice everyday..........and ye would not.....they make the same choice being bound in sin.........and nd ye would not........God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked....but they will go into second death.

There it is again, the same answer you gave previously WITHOUT any explanation or consideration that Jesus/God states that He has PLAEDED with Israel to come to Him.

One does not plead with another to DO something that they are incapable of doing, especially a Holy, Perfect and Just God.

You could at least answer as John McArthur does to all the passages that speak of God's offer to ALL, and God's pleading, and say "I don't know".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps it would be prudent to review the Confessions of Faith.

Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]

 

[steaver]

Perhaps it would be prudent to review the Confessions of Faith.

Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]

Such a perfectly written Confession, it makes one wonder why God Himself was not able to express this as beautifully through His Apostles in His Holy Scriptures. Good thing He sent Calvin to straighten us all out on this matter.

 

[Rippon]

Such a perfectly written Confession, it makes one wonder why God Himself was not able to express this as beautifully through His Apostles in His Holy Scriptures. Good thing He sent Calvin to straighten us all out on this matter.

You are aware that John Calvin died almost a century before the WCoF was published;aren't you?

 

[steaver]

You are aware that John Calvin died almost a century before the WCoF was published;don't you?

No, I haven't spent much time on these things. I assumed it was something from Calvin's time since this is a Calvinism thread. So what is WCoF stand for?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, I haven't spent much time on these things. I assumed it was something from Calvin's time since this is a Calvinism thread. So what is WCoF stand for?

AMAZING!:laugh:

Please do me a favor Steve.....NEVER presume to speak for anyone who has a Reformed theological background. My friend, you don't even have the ABC's down.

 

[Rippon]

No, I haven't spent much time on these things. I assumed it was something from Calvin's time since this is a Calvinism thread. So what is WCoF stand for?

The Westminster Confession of Faith 1646,47. Yes, it's certainly Calvinistic but Calvin died in 1564. However, there were a number of other Reformers of his age --he wasn't the only one who was --shall we say --Calvinistic. The Puritans who contributed to the WCoF were in good step with the man from Geneva.

The London Confession of 1689 (really written in the mid-50's) was a modification of the Savoy Declaration --which was a slight modification of the WCoF. Those three condense major Bible doctrines into manageable form. They are, of course uninspired --but authoritative, yet--subservient to the Word of God.

 

[Rippon]

NEVER presume to speak for anyone who has a Reformed theological background. My friend, you don't even have the ABC's down.

Ah, attention EW&F, do you heed your own advice?