Complete baloney and answered in the new thread you started.
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Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers
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Complete baloney and answered in the new thread you started.
convicted1
Guest
Brother Wes, I am not a cheerleader, but if I see something I am in an agreement with, I will let it be made known. I did that when I was in agreement with you, as well.
The thing that saddens me about you is that you never have learned from anyone whilst you've been on here. Regardless if it's Brothers Skan, Ben, myself, Luke, Old Regular, P4T, Van, et al. You have all the answers. Please don't take this as an personal attack, because it's just an observation, and not meant to be malicious. But when you're a "closed door" to learning, that's a sad place to be. I have always been open to learning. I am still open to it. If God shows me I'm wrong about my beliefs, then I will switch back to the opposing view.
God has a people He chose in Christ from before the foundation of the world. These are His sheep, of which Jesus is the Shepherd of that flock of sheep. He gave His life for them, He died for His bride. The others remain in their fallen state until they die. There are some verses that cause me grief, such as the one that states they 'even denying the Lord that bought them'. But when I read the word en toto, I see a particular redemption for a particular people. And none of these particular people will die lost.
The thing that saddens me about you is that you never have learned from anyone whilst you've been on here. Regardless if it's Brothers Skan, Ben, myself, Luke, Old Regular, P4T, Van, et al. You have all the answers. Please don't take this as an personal attack, because it's just an observation, and not meant to be malicious. But when you're a "closed door" to learning, that's a sad place to be. I have always been open to learning. I am still open to it. If God shows me I'm wrong about my beliefs, then I will switch back to the opposing view.
God has a people He chose in Christ from before the foundation of the world. These are His sheep, of which Jesus is the Shepherd of that flock of sheep. He gave His life for them, He died for His bride. The others remain in their fallen state until they die. There are some verses that cause me grief, such as the one that states they 'even denying the Lord that bought them'. But when I read the word en toto, I see a particular redemption for a particular people. And none of these particular people will die lost.
And therein lies the problem, in your mind you have blocked the obvious message given in the Scripture.
You have done much emphasizing with bold, yet you miss the most important message and do not highlight it with bold, the message Jesus repeated for us in the NT.....the lament of God for those whom He strongly desired to come to Him and let Him be there personal God.....O Jerusalem, Jerusalem....."how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings..."
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
This is God's lamenting, we already know their freewill choice...."ye would not!". It is not as the Calvinist rewords it in his own mind to read as "ye could not!".
"Would Not" = "Choice of two options"
"Could Not" = "No choice - No Options"
You are correct, Iconoclast does not WANT to see the obvious message.
http://www.gospeltruth.net/harris/har_cal_pt2.htm
As Dr. Dick (a Calvinist himself) says here, the Calvinist who is determined to see no difficulty here has LESS UNDERSTANDING than others, not more.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Baloney, baloney, baloney, baloney, baloney, baloney, baloney...
See how easy it is to give a meaningless answer? You don't have to address the question, you don't have to give evidence for your view, you just give meaningless tripe. You are getting like Yeshua1 now.
You can say what you want about me, but I ALWAYS show scripture to support my view. And do you know what people accuse me of? Of believing the scriptures for what they LITERALLY say!
Say something meaningful that adds to the debate or say nothing at all. We already have enough cheerleaders here, that goes for both sides.
And you SHOULD be grieved to believe Limited Atonement when you read scripture that says Jesus bought false teachers. The scriptures do not teach Limited Atonement. You USED to know this, but somehow you have convinced yourself to believe what you once knew was false.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
I hope the word of God will continue to grieve you until you come to your senses again.
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Let's say you were a lot stronger, more durable and faster than me. You COULD whip me in a fight.
But, since I have not given you just cause and you are a decent person- even though you COULD, you WOULD not.
Here's the thing. What that ULTIMATELY means is that you cannot. Though you have the strength, speed and endurance- what you lack is the will.
And if you will not, then you cannot.
Someone could rightly say about you, "He could whip him but he can't do it."
It's a real paradox. But the key is distinguishing between immediates and ultimates.
This is where every Arminian I know chokes. He can only see immediates- the stuff on the surface. For whatever reason, he cannot see beyond the immediate to the ultimate.
In an immediate since Christ WOULD have saved them. But God has willed not to save them, ultimately. Now, hold on. YOU BELIEVE THAT TOO. You believe God has willed not to save them because they will not repent. That is still God NOT WILLING TO SAVE THEM.
I believe they will not repent because God has chosen to leave them to their own devices.
The only ones enabled to repent are the one's God has enabled to repent through regeneration.
What Jesus is doing in this passage is expressing the shocking level of depravity of these people.
"I would save even you, but you are so depraved that you do not want me to save you!"
It is absolutely true that God would save ANYBODY who'd repent.
The question is, "Who will repent?"
Wow Willis, are you a cheerleader or what?
You are a very bitter man, Winman.
It boils inside you that Convicted complimented my post. You can't stand it. You had to insult him for it.
You have some very severe issues, Winman.
steaver
These parts in bold are the context of the statement.You completely ignore the bolded portions because it does not fit your idea. The Covenant curses are coming to bear upon Israel...right here...right now....Have you ever read deut 28-33.....take alook at it, then come back here...and actually ...you could re-read Mt 20-25...as one unit to see the teaching. If you want to ignore it...we will not have any agreement at all........
This is man centered nonsense.God deals in covenant salvation...and covenant curses......no man centered god ..lamenting, feeling down, a bit depressed perhaps.....hey maybe this man centered god could schedule a session with Dconn and discuss his bondage to strongholds of fear and doubt!
You insert this language here when it is not in the text.appealing to 1 tim 2 out of context does not help you.
...and "let him be"......really...let him be....their "personalGod"......news flash...
God is God of the saved and lost.We do not "let him"...do anything...the biblical God does all His good pleasure.I cannot take this seriously when you depart from the biblical language and substitute uncle steavers storytime:thumbsup: since you did not take the time to look ...I will put part of it here for you steaver so you can see hw your philosophy is ignoring the facts here....paul even quotes part of this in Romans 10...if you want to study it out...
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of
the people.
Lament indeed:thumbsup:
.....O Jerusalem, Jerusalem....."how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings..."
Free will does not exist except in secular philosophy books and man centered wrong theology.
As long as you try and force your agenda....anti cal....you will repeat your errors over and over.
Would not.....man in rebellion against God.There is not ....2 options ....it is not multiple choice. All men everywhere are fully responsible to obey the 10 commandments perfectly....it is not an option...but a responsibility. No two options...only ONE RESPONSIBILITY
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
rebellious man and rebellious mans theology want to blame God for mans sin.like Lucifer....they say....I WILL....all such self will is rebellion against God.
The fact that Winman agreed with you is enough reason to conduct a self examination....if you agree with him on anything...it is most likely error and as many have pointed out...if you want to get a handle on theology...see what winman posts...BELIEVE the exact opposite...and you will have truth:laugh:
A closer examination shows that it is you who are ignoring the scripture here Steaver.....let see how you do this....
,
These parts in bold are the context of the statement.You completely ignore the bolded portions because it does not fit your idea. The Covenant curses are coming to bear upon Israel...right here...right now....Have you ever read deut 28-33.....take alook at it, then come back here...and actually ...you could re-read Mt 20-25...as one unit to see the teaching. If you want to ignore it...we will not have any agreement at all........
This is man centered nonsense.God deals in covenant salvation...and covenant curses......no man centered god ..lamenting, feeling down, a bit depressed perhaps.....hey maybe this man centered god could schedule a session with Dconn and discuss his bondage to strongholds of fear and doubt!
You insert this language here when it is not in the text.appealing to 1 tim 2 out of context does not help you.
...and "let him be"......really...let him be....their "personalGod"......news flash...
God is God of the saved and lost.We do not "let him"...do anything...the biblical God does all His good pleasure.I cannot take this seriously when you depart from the biblical language and substitute uncle steavers storytime:thumbsup: since you did not take the time to look ...I will put part of it here for you steaver so you can see hw your philosophy is ignoring the facts here....paul even quotes part of this in Romans 10...if you want to study it out...
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of
the people.
Lament indeed:thumbsup:
.....O Jerusalem, Jerusalem....."how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings..."
Free will does not exist except in secular philosophy books and man centered wrong theology.
As long as you try and force your agenda....anti cal....you will repeat your errors over and over.
Would not.....man in rebellion against God.There is not ....2 options ....it is not multiple choice. All men everywhere are fully responsible to obey the 10 commandments perfectly....it is not an option...but a responsibility. No two options...only ONE RESPONSIBILITY
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
rebellious man and rebellious mans theology want to blame God for mans sin.like Lucifer....they say....I WILL....all such self will is rebellion against God.
The fact that Winman agreed with you is enough reason to conduct a self examination....if you agree with him on anything...it is most likely error and as many have pointed out...if you want to get a handle on theology...see what winman posts...BELIEVE the exact opposite...and you will have truth:laugh:
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convicted1
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: you have it exactly correct....the whole historic church is wrong...only winman can see.
yes,,,very sad indeed.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: you have it exactly correct....the whole historic church is wrong...only winman can see.
yes,,,very sad indeed.
From one cheerleader to another. Where would you be without smilies?
You'll get over it.
Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb...
No, what kills me is the mob mentality of Calvinists. You guys are like a hive of bees, if anyone disagrees with you, you swarm all over them. Then if one of you says some Calvinist cliche, you all slap him on the back as if that proves your doctrine is correct. NOT.
Hi Luke, Is God responsible for Adam's sin, if He predestined it? He is.
You can change the question, evade the truth till the cows come home, but your Calvinist doctrine is irrational.
I have yet to correspond with any Calvinist, except Hypers, who actually acknowledge the consequences of Calvinism. The rest offer shuck and jive.
God arranged the Fall, He put the opportunity to sin before Adam, and Adam chose to sin. Adam sinned volitionally. If God predestined Adam to sin, Adam had no choice, he was compelled to sin by God's predestination of that action.
So simple a cave man could understand it, yet every single Calvinist on this form will deny the obvious. LOL
You can change the question, evade the truth till the cows come home, but your Calvinist doctrine is irrational.
I have yet to correspond with any Calvinist, except Hypers, who actually acknowledge the consequences of Calvinism. The rest offer shuck and jive.
God arranged the Fall, He put the opportunity to sin before Adam, and Adam chose to sin. Adam sinned volitionally. If God predestined Adam to sin, Adam had no choice, he was compelled to sin by God's predestination of that action.
So simple a cave man could understand it, yet every single Calvinist on this form will deny the obvious. LOL
Do all Calvinist view God as such a cold unfeeling God as you do?
"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept."
Imagine that, God weeping even though He knew very well He would raise Lazarus from the dead and all would be well. God does indeed have feelings and as the Scripture shows, God laments over the lost because they choose to do their own will and "would not" come to Him.
Are you certain you posted this in the correct thread, or are you suggesting my pov and my will is in rebellion against God?
It seems you have become a bit frustrated at trying to explain God lamenting over Jerusalem. First you attack God by saying He would need a psychiatrist if He were to have any such emotions, and then you attack all non Cals as being in rebellion against God, and then attack Winman. Are all Calvinist so angry with the brotherhood which does not see the Scripture as Calvin did?
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steaver
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
you can ascribe human emotions and invent a god who does like you think he should do...as if He was not omniscient. That is where your theology forces you. I will not follow you in this.
I spoke of the human idea and carnal philosophy known as "free will". If it fits you Steaver so be it. You express your anti cal statements quite often.
I am free to express my view of your error.
I am not frustrated at the clear statements of fact spoken of.....you have still not addressed what I offered to you. You seek to bring down or describe a god made in mans image as I see what you post.
This one you describe has not really planned salvation ...so all the language of covenant has no meaning to you whatsoever. he sounds confused amd wringing his hands because the creature will not do what he would really like them to do...so he as you say "laments"...he would like or desire things to happen differently...but he cannot effect change. No thanks Steaver...you can keep this one...the one I described in the earlier posts is the one I see revealed in scripture.
no..not at all. I attack the idea of the god you describe that I do not see described that way in scripture.You ignore the one I described from scripture.
the one you describe needs therapy....the biblical God is just fine as He has revealed Himself in isa 46;9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
did I say that? where was that....???
no attack at all...just stating what he himself has posted..over and over.
my brothers do not attack me day after day...even those who do not agree do not attack everyday like happens here. You just do not like when you get an answer to your charges.....:thumbsup:
Can you show where I quoted Calvin? Can you show a post where I have done that? It sounded nice for you to post that...but I believe I quoted Moses...then Matthew. answer them...before you worry about Calvin.
No one said such a thing...we just believe God's revelation about himself.We understand the goodness and severity of God.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Jesus is God and incarnate was fully man....he got tired, he expressed emotions....he could die.
you can ascribe human emotions and invent a god who does like you think he should do...as if He was not omniscient. That is where your theology forces you. I will not follow you in this.
I spoke of the human idea and carnal philosophy known as "free will". If it fits you Steaver so be it. You express your anti cal statements quite often.
I am free to express my view of your error.
I am not frustrated at the clear statements of fact spoken of.....you have still not addressed what I offered to you. You seek to bring down or describe a god made in mans image as I see what you post.
This one you describe has not really planned salvation ...so all the language of covenant has no meaning to you whatsoever. he sounds confused amd wringing his hands because the creature will not do what he would really like them to do...so he as you say "laments"...he would like or desire things to happen differently...but he cannot effect change. No thanks Steaver...you can keep this one...the one I described in the earlier posts is the one I see revealed in scripture.
no..not at all. I attack the idea of the god you describe that I do not see described that way in scripture.You ignore the one I described from scripture.
,
the one you describe needs therapy....the biblical God is just fine as He has revealed Himself in isa 46;9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
did I say that? where was that....???
no attack at all...just stating what he himself has posted..over and over.
my brothers do not attack me day after day...even those who do not agree do not attack everyday like happens here. You just do not like when you get an answer to your charges.....:thumbsup:
?
Can you show where I quoted Calvin? Can you show a post where I have done that? It sounded nice for you to post that...but I believe I quoted Moses...then Matthew. answer them...before you worry about Calvin.
convicted1
Guest
On another thread, Brother JamesL is showing you where you're wrong, and yet, you refute him. None of us have all the answers. Yet, you do? You're a "closed door" to learning....:tear:<------my smiley for my post...
I rest my case.
You are blinded by venomous hatred. There is no point in any of us talking to you anymore.
We are just feeding the troll.
This thread is closed.
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