Non-Calvinists and Eternal Security

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:

IN other words, you have no such Scripture. Thanks for answering my question - It may have been in a roundabout way, but it was an answer.

The idea of a majority of people in Heaven is not Scriptural. I wish there were a majority, but such a case cannot be made using the Bible.

Well, do you have scriptures that show and state unequivocally that there will be more people in hell than heaven ?
And yet you Arminians accuse us of the Election persuasion of elitism.

 

[Sularis]

and yet you Calvinists accuse us Christians of being Arminian when I dont think I am.

As to more people in Hell then in Heaven

I point to Muslims - Buddhists - and all the other major world religions - also Atheists

Their numbers far exceed the various denominations of Christians - even if you count Jews in with us - which I do since they are His chosen people

Its so obvious that there gonna be a lotta people in hell - because of this world was in majority Christian some of the foolishness going on wouldn't be - it would be different religious foolishness

 

[KenH]

But what about all of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of infants and young children who have and will yet die - I know you are not saying they go to hell, are you? And as a postmillennialist, I believe there are lots and lots of people still to be saved before Christ returns.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Sularis:

As to more people in Hell then in Heaven

I point to Muslims - Buddhists - and all the other major world religions - also Atheists

Their numbers far exceed the various denominations of Christians - even if you count Jews in with us - which I do since they are His chosen people

Its so obvious that there gonna be a lotta people in hell - because of this world was in majority Christian some of the foolishness going on wouldn't be - it would be different religious foolishness

 

[BobRyan]

It is a little surprising that when we reference Paul's statement "You have fallen from Grace" in Galations 5 - we hear back "I once believed the error that a person COULD fall from Grace".

And when we reference Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" we get no response.

And when we reference the many falling away texts such as Hebrews 6, and point out that a person would have to actually be in REAL danger of that very thing for it to have REAL meaning (as in - "the obvious") - we hear back "oh no, it could be totally impossible and we would still be very much warned and motivated ( - like warning that the easter bunny might eat your breakfast if you don't lock it in a vault - as a real valid warning motivating us to urgently/really hide our cereal from the Easter bunny, knowing there is no such thing).

All those defensive reactions spell out a weak position related to the texts given in my view.

So when it comes right down to it - one "choice' that we have to make is - do you want that set of responses to be "yours" due to a model of salvation that you choose to adopt? Or would you rather have something a bit more in line with these texts. It is a choice that we must all make. I am more comfortable believing that the warning is real - the danger is real in Heb 6, I am more comfortable believing that the Gal 5 statement is real - someone really did fall from Grace..etc

I am more comfortable believing the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ is "real" and that Christ really did "Die for our sins and not our sins only but for those of the Whole World - Really" - rather than having to redefine all terms that don't fit my doctrines and rework the "sense" of all those texts to "fit" my model of salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 04, 2002, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[M Wickens]

Isn't this issue of where the majority/minority of people go answered by Matthew 7:13-14?

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

[Sularis]

Shhhh dont be using Scripture to disprove them

They might have their eyes opened

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Well, do you have scriptures that show and state unequivocally that there will be more people in hell than heaven ?
And yet you Arminians accuse us of the Election persuasion of elitism.

The passage that was posted a few posts earlier states the main passage. Few take the passage to heaven, many take the path to Hell. Common sense is also on my side, since we can merely examine the statistics of the past 2,000 years.

You state your position as Biblical, yet you cannot show anything to prove it.

 

[BobRyan]

More people in Hell -

Matt 7 "WIDE is the road that leads to destruction and MANY are those who enter by it"

"SMALL is the gate and the way is narrow that leads to eternal life and FEW are those who find it"..

In this text Christ compares relative numbers and draws out the contrast of FEW vs MANY going to hell.

IN Calvinism - God arbitrarily selects out the FEW and proudly announces that "God so Loved the WORLD". Claiming that He became and "Atoning sacrifice for Our sins and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" meaning "arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7".

Certainly a problematic approach to scripture if one is not careful to redefine terms at every turning point to support Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
More people in Hell -

Matt 7 "WIDE is the road that leads to destruction and MANY are those who enter by it"

"SMALL is the gate and the way is narrow that leads to eternal life and FEW are those who find it"..

In this text Christ compares relative numbers and draws out the contrast of FEW vs MANY going to hell.

IN Calvinism - God arbitrarily selects out the FEW and proudly announces that "God so Loved the WORLD". Claiming that He became and "Atoning sacrifice for Our sins and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" meaning "arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7".

Certainly a problematic approach to scripture if one is not careful to redefine terms at every turning point to support Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

How do you know that the "wide road to destruction" is not the theology that man chooses where and with whom he spends eternity and not God ?

In Arminianism God sends His only begotten Son and allows Him to suffer a humiliating death on the cross for faceless, nameless, unknown "acceptors". More to rethink here.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
In Arminianism God sends His only begotten Son and allows Him to suffer a humiliating death on the cross for faceless, nameless, unknown "acceptors".

Not at all!!!

God knows exactly who they are - they have faces and names to Him!

If you want to object to Arminian theology, please do it based on what is actually part of that theology...

AITB

 

[pinoybaptist]

______________________________________
Not at all!!!

God knows exactly who they are - they have faces and names to Him!

If you want to object to Arminian theology, please do it based on what is actually part of that theology...

AITB
___________________________________________-

So, if they have faces and names to Him, then He must have foreknown them, and if He has foreknown them, then He must have predestinated them, and if He has predestinated them, then He must have called them, and if He has called them, then He must have justified them, and if He justified them, then He must have glorified them.

Also, He must have quickened them while they were dead in sins and trespasses in order for them to turn to Him. Also, He must have written their names in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

In other words, their salvation is all of God and none of themselves. God chose them to be with Him, they did not choose to be with God and would never have been able to do so without the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

So, like Jacob and Esau, while they have not yet committed the acts of sins stemming from their fallen nature, God set them apart for Himself that they may declare the wonders and mercies of God in time and in eternity.

Is that what you mean, AITB ?

 

[BobRyan]

pinobaptist
How do you know that the "wide road to destruction" is not the theology that man chooses where and with whom he spends eternity and not God ?

No doubt that God is allowing choice and that the many "do not choose" salvation - but the "Few find it". The action in MAtt 7 is on the part of the "people".

For God so loved "The world"

Christ is the atoning sacrifice for "The WHole World".

Christ is sent to be the savior of "The World".

The FEW are those that choose to accept that salvation. It is one thing to charge MAN with accepting salvation in SMALL numbers - because HE refuses to be saved and loves darkness rather than light.

It is another to charge that God only LOVES a small number and only cares to save a FEW.

pinobaptist
In Arminianism God sends His only begotten Son and allows Him to suffer a humiliating death on the cross for faceless, nameless, unknown "acceptors". More to rethink here.

Nope. In Arminianism God knows all, loves all, dies for all, atones for all, draws all, and sends his Holy Spirit to "Convict the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment". John 16.

See the "Common Ground" thread for similarities between the two groups.

BOTH accept the total depravity of man and the absolute foreknowledge of God. The "Difference" is that in one "God so Loves the World" and in the other "God so loves The Few".

In one Christ is the atoning sacrifice "For the Whole World" and in the other Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the "Arbitrarily selected Few of MAtt 7".

In one Christ is the savior of the World 1John 4 and in the other Christ is only the savior of the "Arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7".

In one - you are guaranteed that God loves your children, died for their sins and is drawing them to Himself - in the other God only loves an arbitrarily selected few - and nothing about the few - recommends themselves to God - their family relationship to you - does not determine their being "elect".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
_So, if they have faces and names to Him, then He must have foreknown them, and if He has foreknown them, then He must have predestinated them, and if He has predestinated them, then He must have called them, and if He has called them, then He must have justified them, and if He justified them, then He must have glorified them.

Also, He must have quickened them while they were dead in sins and trespasses in order for them to turn to Him. Also, He must have written their names in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

In other words, their salvation is all of God and none of themselves. God chose them to be with Him, they did not choose to be with God and would never have been able to do so without the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

So, like Jacob and Esau, while they have not yet committed the acts of sins stemming from their fallen nature, God set them apart for Himself that they may declare the wonders and mercies of God in time and in eternity.

Is that what you mean, AITB ?

No it's not.

On this one, I'll go with what John Wesley said about Romans 8:29

(there's a link there)

AITB

[ September 08, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[BobRyan]

In other words, their salvation is all of God and none of themselves. God chose them to be with Him, they did not choose to be with God and would never have been able to do so without the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

And so He "Draws ALL men unto Himself" thus providing the "power" for depraved lost humanity to "Choose life". But still "men loved the darkness" - He came to His Own - His Chosen people - and His Own received Him not.

So, like Jacob and Esau, while they have not yet committed the acts of sins stemming from their fallen nature, God set them apart for Himself that they may declare the wonders and mercies of God in time and in eternity.

IN the book of Malachi God says "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" - and this LONG after both of them have died. He says this pointing to the sins of their descendants over the centuries.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

I believe that God knows everyone by name who will ultimately become His elect. He has known this from eternity past, so to speak. I am proudly a Four Point Arminian and I believe my first sentence in this post. We believe in Election According to Foreknowledge not Election by Divine Decree. What would be God's gain in electing the few and damning the majority? God does not need to damn 99% of the people to prove that He might have the power to do it. Look at our world and His entire universe if you need to see His power and glory. I know this is good theology but poor Calvinism.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
What would be God's gain in electing the few and damning the majority? God does not need to damn 99% of the people to prove that He might have the power to do it.

I wish you understood, Ray, that God damns no one.

God damns no one.
God damns no one.
God damns no one.

Got it?

Man damns himself by sin.

Is this an Arminian/non-Calvinist belief, that anyone in hell is there because God damned him to hell?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I wish you understood, Ray, that God damns no one.

God damns no one.
God damns no one.
God damns no one.

Got it?

Man doesn't have the power to damn himself to Hell. After death, he cannot force his spirit to reside in Hell for the rest of eternity. It must take Someone with the power to dictate where souls will reside.

"Depart from me, I never knew thee." - Words spoken by the Almighty to those who would be damned. Sounds like God is the Judge there.

Man does the sinning, but it is God who renders the verdict.

"Guilty" for some - thus, he damns them. It requires a semantic exercise to evade that Biblical truth.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
[QBI wish you understood, Ray, that God damns no one.

God damns no one.
God damns no one.
God damns no one.

Got it?

Man damns himself by sin.[/QB]

I get it in the sense I understand what you are saying.

But it still seems like man was set up by God, to me

Anyway, though, do you ever struggle with: if God could elect some people not to go to hell, why didn't He elect more?

I find that extremely hard to understand, in Calvinism.

AITB

 

[Bro. Curtis]

An even better question would be..."why in the world would he elect ME ?!!???!!!"

One look at my short Christian life, and the amount of times I have dropped the ball, it would seem to me that God could have been better served by electing someone else.