Non-Calvinists and Eternal Security

[AITB]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
An even better question would be..."why in the world would he elect ME ?!!???!!!"

One look at my short Christian life, and the amount of times I have dropped the ball, it would seem to me that God could have been better served by electing someone else.

I understand and appreciate the humility of that statement...

God who sees the end from the beginning, perhaps sees things you cannot see, regarding His plans for you, Mr Curtis

But, still, I think the other question is one which a lot of people struggle with. Or at least, I hope I'm not the only one

AITB

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
"Guilty" for some - thus, he damns them. It requires a semantic exercise to evade that Biblical truth.

I am talking about the cause, Scott.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
"Guilty" for some - thus, he damns them. It requires a semantic exercise to evade that Biblical truth.

I am talking about the cause, Scott.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]So, if you saw a drowning person, you knew they couldn't rescue themselves and you could and yet you just walked away and let them die, you'd be fine with that...

And if you'd iced the deck so they fell in...would you still be fine with it?

How hard is it to admit God's role in the process of a person ending up in eternal hell...who created man? Who created heaven and hell? Who made it so man couldn't not sin so he had no choice but eternal damnation (speaking from the Calvinist viewpoint)?

And yet you are happy to say that's just fine...for God to save a few and leave the rest.

Where is the love in that???

AITB

 

[KenH]

Who made it so man couldn't not sin so he had no choice but eternal damnation (speaking from the Calvinist viewpoint)?

And yet you are happy to say that's just fine...for God to save a few and leave the rest.

Where is the love in that???

Maybe I need to quit posting on this board because I evidently can't communicate in the English language.

God doesn't make man sin, or make it where man cannot not sin.

I believe God will save most people, and only a few will be in hell because of their sin.

(John 3:16 NKJV) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 10, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
God doesn't make man sin, or make it where man cannot not sin.

Then who DID make it that many people CANNOT EVER not go to hell? Because they CANNOT choose not to sin?

This is Calvinism, is it not???

AITB

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I believe God will save most people, and only a few will be in hell because of their sin.

I don't understand how you can look around and believe this...when exactly is he going to save all those people who don't acknowledge Him now?

This is a sincere question...I would really like to know when you believe he will do that...or do I differ with you in seeing many many people at present who do not acknowledge Him?

AITB

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by AITB:
How hard is it to admit God's role in the process of a person ending up in eternal hell...who created man? Who created heaven and hell? Who made it so man couldn't not sin so he had no choice but eternal damnation (speaking from the Calvinist viewpoint)?

So much misrepresentation. God created man in perfection. Man chose to sin. That condemned him. So whose choice is it for man to be in a state that he couldn't not sin? It is man's choice. Why is that so hard to understand? It is not God's fault that man's sinned or continues to sin. Man does that of his own free will and will continue to do freely until such time as God regenerates him and gives him a new will.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
So whose choice is it for man to be in a state that he couldn't not sin? It is man's choice. Why is that so hard to understand?

I understand your words but except for Adam and Eve, no human made that choice for him or herself - right?

So aren't you also guilty of misrepresentation by saying 'man' when it was only one man and one woman?

It is not God's fault that man's sinned or continues to sin. Man does that of his own free will and will continue to do freely until such time as God regenerates him and gives him a new will.

Only those he regenerates, though.

The rest...never had a choice, not really, did they? Adam made the choice for them that they couldn't not sin and God doesn't make the choice for them - for some reason - that He makes for others, which enables them to have the power not to sin, if they so choose to avail themselves of it by depending on the Holy Spirit.

Some choice...hell or hell...?!

AITB

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
qb]So much misrepresentation. God created man in perfection. Man chose to sin. That condemned him. So whose choice is it for man to be in a state that he couldn't not sin? It is man's choice. Why is that so hard to understand? It is not God's fault that man's sinned or continues to sin. Man does that of his own free will and will continue to do freely until such time as God regenerates him and gives him a new will.[/QB]

My sin will not damn me since I have been forgiven by the Judge. Another, who commits the same sins I do, but without Christ, is damned by the judge.

I speed. I'm not caught. My speeding isn't my punishment. I have to get caught and get punished by an authority to be punished. The damning is done by the authority. I don't have enough authority to damn myself..

BTW, Ken, how does John 3:16 provide proof that most people will be saved?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by AITB:
I understand your words but except for Adam and Eve, no human made that choice for him or herself - right?

So aren't you also guilty of misrepresentation by saying 'man' when it was only one man and one woman?

No I am not. Adam was our federal head just like Christ is our federal head. Federal headship means that we made that choice in Adam.

Only those he regenerates, though.

The rest...never had a choice, not really, did they? Adam made the choice for them that they couldn't not sin and God doesn't make the choice for them - for some reason - that He makes for others, which enables them to have the power not to sin, if they so choose to avail themselves of it by depending on the Holy Spirit.

They do make a choice ... their choice is to sin and reject God. Romans 1 makes it clear that they know better and choose to reject God anyway. Your misconception is common. YOu seem to think that there are all these people out there who want to get saved but who aren't allowed to. That is simply not true. Everyone who wants to get saved does so. Those who do not get saved do so because of their own desires. Unfortunately, your misunderstanding infects a lot of people so that they come to a similar conclusion. What you must understand is that unsaved man is doing exactly what he wills to do of his own free will. No one is forcing him to reject; he does it on his own.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
My sin will not damn me since I have been forgiven by the Judge. Another, who commits the same sins I do, but without Christ, is damned by the judge.

I speed. I'm not caught. My speeding isn't my punishment. I have to get caught and get punished by an authority to be punished. The damning is done by the authority. I don't have enough authority to damn myself..

Did you think I disagree with this? God does the damning; no one argues with that. But the damnation is a result of the individual's free choice to rebel. God does not damn people unfairly or without just cause.

 

[KenH]

AITB wrote:

This is a sincere question...I would really like to know when you believe he will do that...or do I differ with you in seeing many many people at present who do not acknowledge Him?

I am a postmillennialist. Is that sufficient to explain why I believe as I do?

Even if one is not a postmill, consider all of the young children and babies that have died or been aborted throughout history and throughout the rest of time, plus all of the adults that God saves. Although I realize there may be non-Calvinists who believe babies end up in hell.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
BTW, Ken, how does John 3:16 provide proof that most people will be saved?

As the hymn says, "This is my Father's world"

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[BobRyan]

curtis
An even better question would be..."why in the world would he elect ME ?!!???!!!"

OR how about this -

"Why would God Love only the arbitrarily elect FEW of Matt 7 and then stand up proudly saying - There I So Loved the WORLD that I gave"

Better yet why not come out and say "HE Died for Our sins and for OUR sins ONLY - NOT for those of the REAL Whole World". Why not clearly state what Calvinism loves to state.

The Arminians never claim - "The Whole World is going to be saved some day".

But Calvinist find that they "HAVE" to say that once they "redefine" the term "Whole World".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:

I believe God will save most people, and only a few will be in hell because of their sin.

Ken - would you care to exegete Matt 7 for us and show how the "Few" that find eternal life - are in fact " the many "? The contrast between the FEW and the Many is quite apparent in Matt 7.

Once we consider the chapter closely - I think it shows the problem in triplicate.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AITB:
I understand your words but except for Adam and Eve, no human made that choice for him or herself - right?

So aren't you also guilty of misrepresentation by saying 'man' when it was only one man and one woman?

No I am not. Adam was our federal head just like Christ is our federal head. Federal headship means that we made that choice in Adam.</font>[/QUOTE]This just sounds like theological mumbo-jumbo to me.

If you put it into English does it really make sense to you? I mean, in what sense, did I, could I, possibly be considered to have made a choice of my own because an ancestor of mine did?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Only those he regenerates, though.

The rest...never had a choice, not really, did they? Adam made the choice for them that they couldn't not sin and God doesn't make the choice for them - for some reason - that He makes for others, which enables them to have the power not to sin, if they so choose to avail themselves of it by depending on the Holy Spirit.

They do make a choice ... their choice is to sin and reject God.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, which is it? Did Adam make the choice as 'federal head' or do they make it?

And it's not a choice if it's the only thing they can do.

If people cannot not sin then how is it appropriate to punish them for that any more than to punish someone for not buying a red car when the only car shop there is, only sells blue ones???

Romans 1 makes it clear that they know better and choose to reject God anyway.

If it's really a choice then they could have chosen otherwise. Are you saying that Romans 1 contradicts Calvinism?

Your misconception is common. YOu seem to think that there are all these people out there who want to get saved but who aren't allowed to.

You are wrong. I do not have that misconception.

What I have trouble with is the idea that God created people who are destined for hell who will never have any choice but hell. I question the goodness of a God who would do such a thing as create people for eternal torment

That is simply not true. Everyone who wants to get saved does so. Those who do not get saved do so because of their own desires.

As I said I know that's the Calvinistic view. I'm quite familiar with it.

Unfortunately, your misunderstanding infects a lot of people so that they come to a similar conclusion. What you must understand is that unsaved man is doing exactly what he wills to do of his own free will. No one is forcing him to reject; he does it on his own.

And as I said, if God created people with no choice but hell, it is hard for me to see that as a 'good' act.

AITB

[ September 16, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Once we consider the chapter closely - I think it shows the problem in triplicate.

Brother Bob,

If you are talking about the numbers of adults being saved while Jesus was on the earth, prior to then, and up to the present day, I agree with you.

However, I do not believe that all of the millions, maybe billions, of young children and babies who have died, or will die, are in hell. Do you?

Also, I am a postmillennialist and I believe there will be a golden age of the church during which most people will be Christians.

Ken

[ September 16, 2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

AITB wrote:
"I question the goodness of a God who would do such a thing as create people for eternal torment"

Unless one is an Open Theist, we all have to deal with that issue, Sister AITB. Even Arminians admit that God knows when he creates a person if they will end up in hell.

Ken

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
AITB wrote:
"I question the goodness of a God who would do such a thing as create people for eternal torment"

Unless one is an Open Theist, we all have to deal with that issue, Sister AITB. Even Arminians admit that God knows when he creates a person if they will end up in hell.

Ken

Point taken!

But I find it easier to think about God knowing but yet He still gives them a real opportunity to choose otherwise - the Arminian position - than that He never gave them any choice but hell forever.

AITB

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by AITB:
This just sounds like theological mumbo-jumbo to me.

If you put it into English does it really make sense to you? I mean, in what sense, did I, could I, possibly be considered to have made a choice of my own because an ancestor of mine did?

That is orthodox theology. It makes perfect sense to me and it gives great hope becuase it makes salvation by grace possible. It is the point of Romans 5:12-21. Think of it this way: If I became a sinner by my own acts, then I must become righteous by my own acts. Yet I cannot. That is totally hopeless. But since disobedience came by one man (Adam) and I became disobedient in him, so obedience comes through one man, and I become righteous through him. Don't let the words "federal headship" through you. The point is found in Romans 5.

Well, which is it? Did Adam make the choice as 'federal head' or do they make it?

And it's not a choice if it's the only thing they can do.

Yes ... and sure it is. They don't want to do anything else. They are sinning of the own free will. They can do anything they want to do.

If people cannot not sin then how is it appropriate to punish them for that any more than to punish someone for not buying a red car when the only car shop there is, only sells blue ones???

Because we are not buying cars; we are talking about sin against God. People have a moral inability to not sin. They sin freely and willfully. That is what they want to do and that is why punishment is appropriate.

What I have trouble with is the idea that God created people who are destined for hell who will never have any choice but hell. I question the goodness of a God who would do such a thing as create people for eternal torment

But your position has the same problem as Ken pointed out. You responded to him something along the lines of the "comfort of your thinking." I suggest that is a bad way to do theology. It is not our prerogative to align God with our thinking. We must align our thinking with God.