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Non-Calvinists: Best argument?
- Thread starter Isaiah40:28
- Start date
Isaiah40:28
New Member
So Matt, what does the Holy Spirit do prior to one's "conversion"?cowboymatt said:
cowboymatt
New Member
Good question. I don't really know. Jesus sent the H.S. as a comforter to the believers. Paul talks about the H.S. as the seal of a believer, as the source of gifts for the believer, as an interceder on behalf of the believer. Even in the OT, the Holy Spirit came upon those that were already part of God's people (I have in mind some of the Judges and David). It seems that the H.S.'s role, according to the Bible, is subsequent to being made a member of God's family.Isaiah40:28 said:
As far as the H.S.'s role in conversion, salvation comes by hearing, and hearing by preaching, and preaching that leads to salvation is empowered by the H.S.
Isaiah40:28
New Member
What about convicting men of sin?cowboymatt said:
What about giving birth to spiritual children?
You don't know what the Spirit does during conversion, yet you find fault with Calvinists attributing their act of conversion to the Holy Spirit?
cowboymatt
New Member
How about you give me time to look at the Bible before you accuse me of doing this or that...Isaiah40:28 said:
Isaiah40:28
New Member
It was not my intention to bring accusations.cowboymatt said:
I did not push for you to answer.
You provided a quick answer that seemed inconclusive about your understanding.
I was not aware that I should expect another more complete reply.
God Has Willed For Some To Be Excluded
Proverbs 16:4 : The Lord works out everything for his own ends -- even the wicked for the day of destruction .
John 17:12: While I was with them , I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me . None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled .
Acts 1:25 : to take over this apostolic ministry , which Judas left to go where he belongs .
Romans 9:22 : What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known , bore with great patience the objects of wrath -- prepared for destruction .
Romans 11:7,8 : What then ? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain , but the elect did . The others were hardened , as it is written : "God gave them a spirit of stupor , eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear , to this very day."
2 Corinthians 11:15 : It is not surprising , then , if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness . Their end will be what their actions deserve .
2 Thessalonians 2:3 : ... the man doomed to destruction .
1 Peter 2:8 : and , "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message -- which is also what they were destined for .
2 Peter 2:3 : In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up . Their condemnation has long been hanging over them , and their destruction has not been sleeping .
2 Peter 2:12 : But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand . They are like brute beasts , creatures of instinct , born only to be caught and destroyed , and like beasts they too will perish .
Jude 4 : For certain men who were marked out for condemnation long ago have secretly slipped in among you ...
Jude 13 : They are like wild waves of the sea , foaming up their shame ; wandering stars , for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever .
Justlittleoldme said:
Proverbs 16:4 : The Lord works out everything for his own ends -- even the wicked for the day of destruction .
John 17:12: While I was with them , I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me . None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled .
Acts 1:25 : to take over this apostolic ministry , which Judas left to go where he belongs .
Romans 9:22 : What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known , bore with great patience the objects of wrath -- prepared for destruction .
Romans 11:7,8 : What then ? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain , but the elect did . The others were hardened , as it is written : "God gave them a spirit of stupor , eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear , to this very day."
2 Corinthians 11:15 : It is not surprising , then , if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness . Their end will be what their actions deserve .
2 Thessalonians 2:3 : ... the man doomed to destruction .
1 Peter 2:8 : and , "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message -- which is also what they were destined for .
2 Peter 2:3 : In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up . Their condemnation has long been hanging over them , and their destruction has not been sleeping .
2 Peter 2:12 : But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand . They are like brute beasts , creatures of instinct , born only to be caught and destroyed , and like beasts they too will perish .
Jude 4 : For certain men who were marked out for condemnation long ago have secretly slipped in among you ...
Jude 13 : They are like wild waves of the sea , foaming up their shame ; wandering stars , for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever .
See Rip...
... I guess going back to the question in the OP, I would have to say that Calvinism fulfills Rom 1:23, "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man." He becomes the God who not only condemns most of the world to hell, He even is said to "hate" certain ones from the womb.
As you well know, he who hates is a murderer, 1John 3:15. As you well know, we are told to love even our enemies. Yet with the example you always use, Rom 9:13, Calvinism claims that God hated Esau (and, by Calvinist inference, all who are non-elect) from the womb predestining them to condemnation.
Does God expect more of us that He practices Himself?
Or perhaps something is wrong with my logic here. I cannot seem to find the God who "hates the sin but loves the sinner." Please explain.
skypair
... I guess going back to the question in the OP, I would have to say that Calvinism fulfills Rom 1:23, "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man." He becomes the God who not only condemns most of the world to hell, He even is said to "hate" certain ones from the womb.
As you well know, he who hates is a murderer, 1John 3:15. As you well know, we are told to love even our enemies. Yet with the example you always use, Rom 9:13, Calvinism claims that God hated Esau (and, by Calvinist inference, all who are non-elect) from the womb predestining them to condemnation.
Does God expect more of us that He practices Himself?
Or perhaps something is wrong with my logic here. I cannot seem to find the God who "hates the sin but loves the sinner." Please explain.
skypair
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Not a single verse says they are predestined to destruction even though it is the destiny of everyman from birth, unless he submits to the righteousness of God. If God can save murders idolters and theives All men have the possibility that God will save them.Rippon said:
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
You believe in the Soverignty of God can you deny all things are possible with God?. Can you tell us what God will do and what He can't do or even won't do. I don't believe anyone can.
None of the above passages say that men are created for destruction. Even those in Romans 9 become the vessles of mercy before the chapter is over.
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
MB
rip,
I don't want to rush you or pressure you but...
...how does a God who hates infants from the womb -- Calvinism claims that God hated Esau and, by Calvinist inference, all who are non-elect -- compare with the Jesus who said, "Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven?" Can you come back and explain this to me?
skypair
I don't want to rush you or pressure you but...
...how does a God who hates infants from the womb -- Calvinism claims that God hated Esau and, by Calvinist inference, all who are non-elect -- compare with the Jesus who said, "Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven?" Can you come back and explain this to me?
skypair
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Rippon said:
I complained about this one too. Skypair is equating Calvinists to nonbelievers, questioning our salvation--something not allowed on the BB.
The Archangel
rip, AA,
Psa 5:4-5 -- "4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
God hates the man TOTALLY on account of his sin! And which of these sins do you charge infants with?
Again, I think you should focus on my questions rather than to what you think I am accusing you of. Does God hate non-elect infants in the womb? Did Jesus love Judas and give him the favored "sop" and still offer to save him at the last supper? Did David hate Saul? Or Absalom. Or Abner? Do you see the difference between David's God and Calvin's?
I apologize if you are taking this personally. You shouldn't. I am inquiring into Calvinism's defense of God's love. And it was completely under the perview of the OP. I am saying that if God hates infants from the womb "before they have done either right or wrong," then, IMO, something is amiss in your faith or mine and let's work it out for your good and my good, OK?
skypair
Psa 5:4-5 -- "4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
God hates the man TOTALLY on account of his sin! And which of these sins do you charge infants with?
Again, I think you should focus on my questions rather than to what you think I am accusing you of. Does God hate non-elect infants in the womb? Did Jesus love Judas and give him the favored "sop" and still offer to save him at the last supper? Did David hate Saul? Or Absalom. Or Abner? Do you see the difference between David's God and Calvin's?
I apologize if you are taking this personally. You shouldn't. I am inquiring into Calvinism's defense of God's love. And it was completely under the perview of the OP. I am saying that if God hates infants from the womb "before they have done either right or wrong," then, IMO, something is amiss in your faith or mine and let's work it out for your good and my good, OK?
skypair
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So you believe that Calvinists never sin or if they do sin that is in God's perfect plan for them?Rippon said:
Do you really believe those Calvinists who sin that God predestiend them to sin or do you believe that God predestined each one to conform to the image of Christ?
Timtoolman
New Member
Rippon said:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:16-17).
God demonstrates this love toward us in spite of our sins. "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly . . . But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6, 8).
Not rightous or good when Christ demonstrated His love for them!
Mark 10/;21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
The rich young ruler! Hmmmm seems Jesus loved the sinner who walked away and did not repent. And somehow my calvinist brothers will come up with "different" types of love or the word does not really mean love!
Can we love the sinner and not the sin? What happens if a close friend or a loved one (son, daughter even) goes on a rampage and kills 5 or 6 people? Is if possiable for the parent to still love the child and detest the sin or act they did? ABSOLUTELY!
Timtoolman
New Member
Rippon said:
Kettle calling the pot black!:BangHead:
webdog said:
WB and TT : Calvinists subscribe to Calvinism . SP has habitually said disgraceful and even blasphemous things about those who hold to Calvinism . Yes , of course he loves to distort our beliefs and will continue to say untrue things about us even when corrected a multitude of times .
A reasonable-minded non-Cal would acknowledge everything I have just said . If SP gets a permanent ban he will have brought it on himself .