Non-Calvinists: Best argument?

[Timtoolman]

Augustine

“That is, he should not hate the man because of the fault, nor should he love the fault because of the man; rather, he should hate the fault but love the man. And when the fault has been healed there will remain only what he ought to love, and nothing that he ought to hate” (City of God, 14.6).


Augustine.

 

[Timtoolman]

God is called Love . Yet he is shown to hate some individuals . Scripture does not refer to Him as Hate as such , so I will not . But I know that the Lord is not just a giant fuzzball who is not about wrath and judgment .The Bible presents Him as loving and expressing hatred as well . It's not one or the other . Remember that God is God and not human . If you forget that fact you will end up in perpetual confusion .

This seems to contradict or at least back track a little on your earlier statement. So what does this leave us with? God picks and chooses among the sinners who He will hate and who He will love?! Or may we suggest that God punishes sin because of His love also. I don't think I even need to explain that last statement because you as a calvinist should be able to understand that reasoning quite well. That is a compliment by the way.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Mark 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

I've always wondered when this is brought up, what do we know about the final destiny of this rich young ruler?

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Why assume that the ruler was not saved ever?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Do believe otherwise ? Does God love the sinner , but only hates the sin in your estimation ?

Ps. 11:5 : The Lord examines the righteous , but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates .

So hate is not really hate here ?

Ps. 53:5 ... for God despised them .

So God did not really despise them ?

Proverbs 3:32 : for the Lord tetests a perverse man ...

So the Lord doesn't really detest here ?!

Proverbs 11:20 : The Lord detests men of perverse heart ...

So the Lord doesn't really detest them ?!

I could cite many more passages where you ( to maintain your position ) would have to go against God's Holy Word .

How does one explain these passages?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Isaiah 40:28,

You asked, why a rich ruler was not saved ever?

Because, he decided refuse to put his faith in Christ, he was worried over his finance and held his worldly things, that why he is now in hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Isaiah 40:28,

You asked, why a rich ruler was not saved ever?

Because, he decided refuse to put his faith in Christ, he was worried over his finance and held his worldly things, that why he is now in hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

No, I didn't ask that.
I asked why we assume that he was not ever saved.

You don't know if he's in hell.
You assume so.
Perhaps he was saved later and it is not recorded.

 

[skypair]

The Bible presents Him as loving and expressing hatred as well . It's not one or the other.

Yeah, but my question was directed toward what He thinks of fetuses and infants. Love? Hate? Isaac and Esau-wise, what is your theology here? All "hated" and condemned? Special "gospel" or exemption or dispensation?

skypair

 

[webdog]

How does one explain these passages?

By a correct unerstanding of sane used in context.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

By a correct unerstanding of sane used in context.

hmmm, don't know what you mean.

 

[webdog]

hmmm, don't know what you mean.

Sane (and Miseou) does not mean the absence of love as the english word "hate" is used.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

The rich young ruler! Hmmmm seems Jesus loved the sinner who walked away and did not repent. And somehow my calvinist brothers will come up with "different" types of love or the word does not really mean love!

I hope my husband loves me differently than he loves his mother, my mother, my sister, his daughter, etc.
I hope that God loves me differently than he loves the unbelieving sinner.
I hope that I love my son differently than I love my neighbor's son.
I hope that God loves His Son differently than He loves his enemies.
Even we allow for different types of love.

Can we love the sinner and not the sin? What happens if a close friend or a loved one (son, daughter even) goes on a rampage and kills 5 or 6 people? Is if possiable for the parent to still love the child and detest the sin or act they did? ABSOLUTELY!

God has a right to hate sinners.
And no one can tell Him he's being unfair, unloving, and unjust.

 

[Timtoolman]

Why

Why do we strain and strive so hard to paint God as a
-puppetier
-a hater
-one who blinds or hardens so THEY CAN'T be saved
-one who offers His love to only some
-a god who is a respector of persons (I am chosen but you are not nor can you be saved)
-that has created much of humanity to be without chance or hope!
-a god who does indeed influence people to sin for his will or glory


then claim all to HIS glory and on top of that soil Him even more by declaring "this is the doctrine of grace"!!!!!

 

[Timtoolman]

I hope my husband loves me differently than he loves his mother, my mother, my sister, his daughter, etc.
I hope that God loves me differently than he loves the unbelieving sinner.
I hope that I love my son differently than I love my neighbor's son.
I hope that God loves His Son differently than He loves his enemies.
Even we allow for different types of love.

God has a right to hate sinners.
And no one can tell Him he's being unfair, unloving, and unjust.

God has a right to be God. HIs word is tells us who God is. He cannot hate His creation if He says He loves it and it is good. He cannot say whosoever will and then declare only those that I will. His word is true. You have chosen to interpt scripture to create a god that is a monster. One who hates people He created, one who dangles salvation in front of him yet keeps it out of his reach. A god who does at least influence people to sin for His glory.

 

[Rippon]

Why do we strain and strive so hard to paint God as a
-puppetier -[ R-- He's not. ]
-a hater [R -- Not in the modern sense of the word . But He does hate certain people .]
-one who blinds or hardens so THEY CAN'T be saved [ R. -- That's true .But remember that those He has not chosen to not want to be saved . They love their sin too much .]]
-one who offers His love to only some [ R -- That's true .]
-a god who is a respector of persons (I am chosen but you are not nor can you be saved) [ R-- He's God with a big "G" . He chooses those whom He desires and needn't get your approval on the matter . ]
-that has created much of humanity to be without chance or hope! [ R --Chance has nothing to do with salvation .]
-a god who does indeed influence people to sin for his will or glory [ R -- That's God with a big "G" . Everything He does reflects His glory .]

 

[Timtoolman]

??

-a hater [R -- Not in the modern sense of the word . But He does hate certain people .][/font]

Rippon I would like you to explain more what you mean here by this.[/font]

one who blinds or hardens so THEY CAN'T be saved [ R. -- That's true .But remember that those He has not chosen to not want to be saved . They love their sin too much .]

This sounds a lot like those who do not hold to Calvinism. So you are saying that God only denies the truth of salvation to those who love their sin more then those He offers it too?

-a god who is a respector of persons (I am chosen but you are not nor can you be saved) [ R-- He's God with a big "G" . He chooses those whom He desires and needn't get your approval on the matter . ]

And why would God desire you over anyone else He created? This is what most calvinst rant and rave about, why does God choose, to those who are not Calvinist. Now you come up with “God desires you”. Yet you wonder why people accuse Calvinist as being prideful.[/font]

that has created much of humanity to be without chance or hope! [ R --Chance has nothing to do with salvation .][/font]

Alright, then deal with hope or a prayer.[/font]

a god who does indeed influence people to sin for his will or glory [ R -- That's God with a big "G" . Everything He does reflects His glory .][/font]
a god who (little g in my mind) who cannot be tempted and tempts no man then does for his (small h for he is a small god) glory is not the God of the bible. That last statement is just scary.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

God has a right to be God. HIs word is tells us who God is. He cannot hate His creation if He says He loves it and it is good. He cannot say whosoever will and then declare only those that I will. His word is true. You have chosen to interpt scripture to create a god that is a monster. One who hates people He created, one who dangles salvation in front of him yet keeps it out of his reach. A god who does at least influence people to sin for His glory.

And off the deep end you go.

 

[skypair]

rip,

"Does God hate innocent fetuses and infants?" is your assignment. Did the dog eat your homework?

skypair

 

[jcjordan]

rip,

"Does God hate innocent fetuses and infants?" is your assignment. Did the dog eat your homework?

skypair

No he doesn't. It's not that God doesn't hate. There's no such thing as innocent fetuses and infants. However, since our God is gracious, we have great hope that He may choose some or even all infants or unborn children to salvation by granting them faith. However, if He has chosen not to grant salvation to even one child, He would still be worth my worship. I say this as a father who has lost three children to miscarriage.

 

[JustChristian]

No he doesn't. It's not that God doesn't hate. There's no such thing as innocent fetuses and infants. However, since our God is gracious, we have great hope that He may choose some or even all infants or unborn children to salvation by granting them faith. However, if He has chosen not to grant salvation to even one child, He would still be worth my worship. I say this as a father who has lost three children to miscarriage.

So you're saying that God "grants" faith to those who have no understanding of what that is? That some are saved without knowing that it has happened and without ever hearing the gospel? That's called HyperCalvinism.

 

[Rippon]

And why would God desire you over anyone else He created? This is what most calvinst rant and rave about, why does God choose, to those who are not Calvinist. Now you come up with “God desires you”. Yet you wonder why people accuse Calvinist as being prideful.



Romans 9:18 : Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy , and hardens whom he wants to harden .

There is no pride involved here . The Lord shows compassion and mercy to some and He hardens the hearts of others by His good pleasure . He has the sovereign right -- He is GOD !

Don't make this about Calvinists . I have said repeatedly over my years on the BB that all true , regenerate souls will go to glory -- Calvinists as well as non-Cals . Non-Cals deny, minimize and distort the biblical teaching of election and many other scriptural doctrines . It is a real shame . However , if the Lord has chosen them He will cause them to believe , repent and turn to Himself . He elects those He so desires to come unto Himself -- it waas decided in eternity past .

Everything the Lord does reflects His glory -- everything !