Non-Calvinists: Best argument?

[jcjordan]

So you're saying that God "grants" faith to those who have no understanding of what that is? That some are saved without knowing that it has happened and without ever hearing the gospel? That's called HyperCalvinism.

By your own definition. So, you don't believe any children go to heaven? I can buy that.

 

[webdog]

No he doesn't. It's not that God doesn't hate. There's no such thing as innocent fetuses and infants. However, since our God is gracious, we have great hope that He may choose some or even all infants or unborn children to salvation by granting them faith. However, if He has chosen not to grant salvation to even one child, He would still be worth my worship. I say this as a father who has lost three children to miscarriage.

If fetuses and infants are guilty, guilty of what? If they are guilty, they can only be saved in the same manner adults are...by faith. The logical end to your view is the damnation of all infants and fetuses that die. There is no special dispensation of salvation for them. Fact is, they are not guilty until THEY sin...not Adam.

 

[Timtoolman]

Yes

And off the deep end you go.

Your right, I apologize (you and rippon both). I have to confess Rippon brings out the worse in me. I was just making the pt that God appears in His word to love sinners. It also seems apparent He hates sinners. I was just throwing out the concept that would help. That being, God loves the sinner, His creation, but hates the sin. That it is possiable with man and is definately possiable with God.

 

[skypair]

No he doesn't. It's not that God doesn't hate. There's no such thing as innocent fetuses and infants. However, since our God is gracious, we have great hope that He may choose some or even all infants or unborn children to salvation by granting them faith. However, if He has chosen not to grant salvation to even one child, He would still be worth my worship. I say this as a father who has lost three children to miscarriage.

Sorry as I am about your children, that does not lend credence to your belief. Satan has told you your children aren't safe -- Jesus said, "of such are the kingdom of God." Whose theology are you believing, jc?

Satan has said, God doesn't need to be just or fair. "Did He say you shall not eat from every tree...?" Gen 2 --- Ezek 18:20 says, "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." So if you care to take your theology to it's logical conclusion, what "wickedness" did your children commit before they were even born?

So, I call it "hate." Call "condemnation" of the innocent what you want -- I know where that comes from.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Your right, I apologize (you and rippon both). I have to confess Rippon brings out the worse in me. I was just making the pt that God appears in His word to love sinners. It also seems apparent He hates sinners. I was just throwing out the concept that would help. That being, God loves the sinner, His creation, but hates the sin. That it is possiable with man and is definately possiable with God.

Thanks for that post.
My two questions that I asked were about the final destiny of the rich young ruler and how to explain the passages that Rippon listed earlier.

 

[skypair]

Sorry as I am about your children, that does not lend credence to your belief. Satan has told you your children aren't safe -- Jesus said, "of such are the kingdom of God." Whose theology are you believing, jc?

skypair

jc, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. I lost a child to miscarriage also. I just happen to believe as David did --- "He cannot come to me but I will go to him." BTW, I don't believe David went to hell nor that David had any doubt that he was speaking of heaven where his son would be.

skypair

 

[JustChristian]

By your own definition. So, you don't believe any children go to heaven? I can buy that.

How do you define Hyper-Calvinism?

 

[psalms109:31]

Hyper

Hypers believe that those who are chosen are going to be saved even without those who are chosen reaching out for them.

Regular calvinist are just a step away from the truth.

I believe in the chosen because without them who will reach out for whosoever believes. I believe God has chosen people even in the womb, but I also believe that God has included with them whosoever believes in thier message.

Like the scribes, who wants to tear down thier precious building and rebuild?

 

[Rippon]

Hypers believe that those who are chosen are going to be saved even without those who are chosen reaching out for them.

What in the world are you talking about ? What in the world are you trying to say ? Please rephrase so I can understand .

 

[Rippon]

Regular calvinist are just a step away from the truth.

And I suppose these "regular Calvinists" are lost in your estimation ? If they are not in the truth they can't be of the truth .

 

[gb93433]

Hypers believe that those who are chosen are going to be saved even without those who are chosen reaching out for them.

Some hypers are not sure if they are the elect.

 

[psalms109:31]

Rippon

We are all seeking the truth.

Both sides can be proved by scripture.

Some hold firmly to one side of the coin some hold to both sides of the coin.

Jesus is your salvation so you are not lost.

 

[psalms109:31]

Shame

Some hypers are not sure if they are the elect.

That would be a shame to not know that you are saved or not.

 

[gb93433]

That would be a shame to not know that you are saved or not.

I certainly believe 1 Jn 5:11-13, but I have had some hypers tell me they are not sure if they are of the elect.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hyper

I certainly believe 1 Jn 5:11-13, but I have had some hypers tell me they are not sure if they are of the elect.

See if they believe or trust they are saved, then they have earned thier salvation.

Trusting and believing is not earning your salvation at all, trusting and believing is making God and His word your salvation.

There is only one way to earn your salvation, to have no sin, but all have sinned and come short of the glory of God or to die. The wages of our sin is death so to pay our sin debt is not salvation at all but eternal death.

There is no way to earn our salvation, because of the wages of our sin is death. Jesus has paid our sin debt. So as His word says'.

As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

We are saved by grace not by works because we don't have to pay our debt, Jesus did.

 

[Rippon]

Do Not Deny These Scriptures

Proverbs 16:4 : The Lord works out everything for his own ends -- even the wicked for the day of destruction .

John 17:12: While I was with them , I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me . None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled .

Acts 1:25 : to take over this apostolic ministry , which Judas left to go where he belongs .


Romans 9:22 : What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known , bore with great patience the objects of wrath -- prepared for destruction .

Romans 11:7,8 : What then ? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain , but the elect did . The others were hardened , as it is written : "God gave them a spirit of stupor , eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear , to this very day."

2 Corinthians 11:15 : It is not surprising , then , if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness . Their end will be what their actions deserve .

2 Thessalonians 2:3 : ... the man doomed to destruction .

1 Peter 2:8 : and , "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message -- which is also what they were destined for .

2 Peter 2:3 : In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up . Their condemnation has long been hanging over them , and their destruction has not been sleeping .

2 Peter 2:12 : But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand . They are like brute beasts , creatures of instinct , born only to be caught and destroyed , and like beasts they too will perish .

Jude 4 : For certain men who were marked out for condemnation long ago have secretly slipped in among you ...

Jude 13 : They are like wild waves of the sea , foaming up their shame ; wandering stars , for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever .

Allan needs a reminder on another thread of the value of these verses.The only twisting is done by those desperately trying to wriggle-free from their import.

 

[Allan]

Allan needs a reminder on another thread of the value of these verses.The only twisting is done by those desperately trying to wriggle-free from their import.

Well since every single verse listed is exactly as I stated I believe, it is not I that is desperately seeking wiggle room

What I don't claim to believe is that man is damned by God's electing him or ordaining him to damnation and 'that' is why man can not and will not believe. Thus it appeares that those who hold such are denying the scripture when it states that mans damnation is because of man's rejection of the truth as stated in Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:22-33; John 3:16; John 3:36, and so on, and so on, and so on... thus man is damned only after his rejection.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well since every single verse listed is exactly as I stated I believe, it is not I that is desperately seeking wiggle room

What I don't claim to believe is that man is damned by God's electing him or ordaining him to damnation and 'that' is why man can not and will not believe. Thus it appeares that those who hold such are denying the scripture when it states that mans damnation is because of man's rejection of the truth as stated in Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:22-33; John 3:16; John 3:36, and so on, and so on, and so on... thus man is damned only after his rejection.

I believe men are damned for their sins. And as studied as you are Allan, you know the Reformed doctrine of Reprobation is not active damnation. But I am not sure that was what Rip was teaching, was he?

RB

 

[Allan]

I believe men are damned for their sins. And as studied as you are Allan, you know the Reformed doctrine of Reprobation is not active damnation. But I am not sure that was what Rip was teaching, was he?

RB

I agree that Reformed doctrine does not advocate this. But with Rips posts stating that men are damned for rejection they were damned already in eternity past.. I think needs much more clarification.

The question needing answered is -
Does God damn a man for rejecting the truth He reveals ,

or

Does God damn a man so he can not believe the truth?

another way to ask it is this way:
Did God preordain certain men to be damned or did God preordain the damnation of those certain men who will not believe?


As to what Rippon believes concerning the matter is somewhat a mystery to me. He seems to stress quite frequently that the unelect are not damned for rejection of Christ but because it was God's choice to damn them in eternity past. So his clarificaiton on this would be an interesting point.

I don't believe the scripture is lieing when it states that men who 'are' damned are only so 'after' their rejection of the truth/Christ and not be before. Though their damnation is certain to come, it is because of their rejection of the truth/Christ which God knew already. While 'all men' are under condemnation (including the elect temporarily) being under condemnation is the same as being condemned or damned.