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Non-Calvinists, why is your God so small?
- Thread starter Siegfried
- Start date
Scott,
I don't disagree.
But the lack of "chance" is not because of how God created them. It is because of the results of the fall of Adam, and the resulting ingrained hostility toward God.
God gives them chance or opportunity in the offer of the gospel. If they believe, they will be saved. If they come, they will be welcomed. There is genuine opportunity there if they will take it.
If a college in Timbuktu offers scholarships for all those who apply, but I have an ingrained hatred for all things Timbuktuish, and because of that I would rather die than go to school there or take their money, the chance for me to have a scholarship to TimbuktuU is certainly genuine, even though there is no chance I will apply for it.
Same thing in the offer of the gospel. Genuine chance for salvation; zero chance they will take it.
[ November 24, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
I don't disagree.
But the lack of "chance" is not because of how God created them. It is because of the results of the fall of Adam, and the resulting ingrained hostility toward God.
God gives them chance or opportunity in the offer of the gospel. If they believe, they will be saved. If they come, they will be welcomed. There is genuine opportunity there if they will take it.
If a college in Timbuktu offers scholarships for all those who apply, but I have an ingrained hatred for all things Timbuktuish, and because of that I would rather die than go to school there or take their money, the chance for me to have a scholarship to TimbuktuU is certainly genuine, even though there is no chance I will apply for it.
Same thing in the offer of the gospel. Genuine chance for salvation; zero chance they will take it.
[ November 24, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
Missionary to Germany
New Member
Who can be saved? Every single person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
What does the Bible mean in II Peter 3:9? The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Does GOD not want everyone to be saved? Was is it not the LORD who sought Adam after he sinned in the garden of Eden? Yes, it was! Gen 3:8-9 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
II Cor 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself , not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
It is possible for everyone to be saved, if they simply accept God's FREE offer of salvation.
What does the Bible mean in II Peter 3:9? The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Does GOD not want everyone to be saved? Was is it not the LORD who sought Adam after he sinned in the garden of Eden? Yes, it was! Gen 3:8-9 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
II Cor 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself , not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
It is possible for everyone to be saved, if they simply accept God's FREE offer of salvation.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Again, it is impossible for them to come, because God is the CAUSE of man's change of heart. There is not genuine opportunity because the decision isn't even up to man.
That's a faulty analogy. In the Calvinistic scheme of things, you would have to say that it would be impossible for the person to even accept such a scholarship. The only way people accept such a scholarship is if the dean of students came and changed your heart. If the dean doesn't visit, there's no way a person can accept such a scholarship.
Because according to the Calvinist doctrine - N
NE can take it. They have to be changed first. There is not a genuine chance for salvation, since for that chance to occur, God would have to change that person's heart to do so. And if GOd changes the heart, they automatically come. A Zero chance is not a genuine chance.ScottEmerson
Active Member
I'd interpret it at face value. I guess I don't understand the question.</font>[/QUOTE]Did God harden Pharoah's heart? or Did Pharoah harden his own heart? Which was it? Is there a contradiction there?
I'd interpret it at face value. I guess I don't understand the question.</font>[/QUOTE]Did God harden Pharoah's heart? or Did Pharoah harden his own heart? Which was it? Is there a contradiction there?</font>[/QUOTE]If I recall correctly (I'm going from memory, not the text), Pharoah hardened his own heart twice, after which God hardened his heart twice. Some folks take that to mean God will eventually give up on you and harden your heart if you do it yourself enough. I personally wouldn't turn what happened to Pharoah into a general rule like that, but it could be the case, I suppose.
Nevertheless, I see no contradiction there.
KenH
Well-Known Member
No contradiction at all. Before Moses ever appeared before Pharoah God said He would harden Pharoah's heart.
Exodus 4:21(NASB)
21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
God does not sit around waiting on man to act so that He can accomplish His purposes. God is in control, not man, of seeing that His will is accomplished.
Ken
Dear Missionary to Germany: AMEN! The doctrines of Calvinism are only precious to those who think they are the elect. It is certainly not the Good News to anyone else.
But one night long ago an angel told some shepherds who were watching their sheep on the hillside, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord."
The good news from heaven was for all the people. The news from the Calvinists is not.
It's a different news...
But one night long ago an angel told some shepherds who were watching their sheep on the hillside, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord."
The good news from heaven was for all the people. The news from the Calvinists is not.
It's a different news...
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Hmmm... Then why does it say over and over that Pharoah hardened his own heart?Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Exodus 4:21(NASB)
21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
God does not sit around waiting on man to act so that He can accomplish His purposes. God is in control, not man, of seeing that His will is accomplished.
Ken[/QB]
KenH
Well-Known Member
That is such a cheap shot, Helen. I am surprised you would lower yourself to that level of argumentation.
Do you not think that reknown Calvinists such as Bunyan, Gill, Whitefield, Edwards, Boyce, Braodus, Spurgeon, Carroll, Kennedy, Mohler, brought, and bring, good news, the evangel, to those desperately in need of a Savior?
Sometimes I get very concerned with you, Helen. There are times when you write like someone consumed by hatred toward Calvinism and, by implication, toward Calvinists.
I hope that one day God will grant you doctrinal peace in the truth found in Jesus Christ.
Ken
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Because he did. And God hardened his heart, too. It says both, so both happened. What part of "both" are you tripping over, here?
</font>[/QUOTE]I just wonder about how Jews interpret that idea, that God can harden a person's heart and that a person can harden his own heart. How, exactly, can a person harden their own heart? Just thinking aloud.
Ken, it's not at all a cheap shot to say that Calvinism isn't very good news for most of the people in the world, and that is quite different from the message the angels gave. It is a true shot, and dead on target. The only people Calvinism is good news for is Calvinists!
Thank you for your concern about my peace of mind. I definitely have peace of mind about biblical doctrine. I just don't think Calvinism is biblical, no matter how many famous preachers and theologians believed it.
About the Pharaoh -- God told Moses what the end result would be, that He, God, would harden Pharaoh's heart.
However for the first five plagues, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
Plague of Blood -- "Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord has said."
Plague of Frogs -- "But when the Pharaoh saw thet there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord has said."
Plague of Gnats -- "But Pharaoh's heart was hard, and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said."
Plague of Flies -- "But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go."
Plague on Livestock -- "Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go."
Plague of Boils -- But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.
Plague of Hail -- "Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. 'This time I have sinned,' he said to them. 'The Lord is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. Pray to the Lord, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer.'"
...."When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts."
Plague of Locusts -- "Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, 'I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me.'
Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the Lord. And the Lord changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried the into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let the Israelites go.
The Plague of Darkness -- "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he will not willing to let them go."
Plague on the Firstborn: "the Lord said...'And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them.'"
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Blood -- not specific
Frogs -- Pharaoh
Gnats -- not specific
Fies -- Pharaoh
Livestock -- implication is Pharaoh
Boils -- the Lord
Hail -- Pharaoh declares repentance and then hardens his own heart.
Locusts -- Pharaoh declares repentance again but no go; the Lord hardens his heart.
Darkness -- the Lord
Firstborn -- the Lord
In other words, it was Pharaoh's decision to harden his own heart at first. After that the Lord did it for him/to him.
Man does indeed have a right, given to him by the Lord, to choose whom he will serve.
[ November 26, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
Thank you for your concern about my peace of mind. I definitely have peace of mind about biblical doctrine. I just don't think Calvinism is biblical, no matter how many famous preachers and theologians believed it.
About the Pharaoh -- God told Moses what the end result would be, that He, God, would harden Pharaoh's heart.
However for the first five plagues, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
Plague of Blood -- "Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord has said."
Plague of Frogs -- "But when the Pharaoh saw thet there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord has said."
Plague of Gnats -- "But Pharaoh's heart was hard, and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said."
Plague of Flies -- "But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go."
Plague on Livestock -- "Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go."
Plague of Boils -- But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.
Plague of Hail -- "Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. 'This time I have sinned,' he said to them. 'The Lord is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. Pray to the Lord, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer.'"
...."When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts."
Plague of Locusts -- "Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, 'I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me.'
Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the Lord. And the Lord changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried the into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let the Israelites go.
The Plague of Darkness -- "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he will not willing to let them go."
Plague on the Firstborn: "the Lord said...'And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them.'"
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Blood -- not specific
Frogs -- Pharaoh
Gnats -- not specific
Fies -- Pharaoh
Livestock -- implication is Pharaoh
Boils -- the Lord
Hail -- Pharaoh declares repentance and then hardens his own heart.
Locusts -- Pharaoh declares repentance again but no go; the Lord hardens his heart.
Darkness -- the Lord
Firstborn -- the Lord
In other words, it was Pharaoh's decision to harden his own heart at first. After that the Lord did it for him/to him.
Man does indeed have a right, given to him by the Lord, to choose whom he will serve.
[ November 26, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."
Hebrews 3:12-13
Speaking of Nebuchadnezzar: But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.
Daniel 5:20
The Bible gives these two causes of a hardening of the heart by a man himself: the deceitfulness of sin and pride.
[ November 26, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
OIC. I can only guess what it means to harden your own heart. Think of how some prideful people react when you tell them they are wrong about something. Even if they know you're right and they're wrong, they not only refuse to admit they are wrong, your correction makes them even more stubborn about their assertions. They rationalize virtually anything in order to "win" the argument. Worse, they show no visible respect for the truth. It's not about what's right, it's about being "right" (or more accurate, perhaps, being in control). IMO, that's an example of hardening one's own heart.
Nevertheless, you can't get around the fact that the LORD did harden Pharoah's heart.
Why would God harden Pharoah's heart at all, though? For several reasons, but one VERY important reason was to glorify Himself. By taking that approach, the Hebrews were able to plunder the Egyptians' wealth. If Pharoah had simply let them go, they would have left with what they had.
By taking that approach, Pharoah's hardened heart caused him to try to get the Hebrews back, only to be swallowed up by the parted red sea. After all that, nobody could ever claim that anyone but the LORD rescued the Hebrews from Egypt.
Okay, so we know some reasons why God hardened Pharoah's heart, and we know that God did it after Pharoah hardened his own heart.
So how do you handle this from an Arminian perspective? The only option you have to reconcile this with "free will" is to say that God foreknew at some point that Pharoah was beyond reach, after which it was permissible to harden his heart. It did not put Pharoah any further away from salvation to harden Pharoah's heart, since Pharoah was already past the point of no return.
Not that you have a right to judge the LORD, but do you happen to find that explanation acceptable? Let's assume you'll say yes.
Then why do you find it unacceptable if God foreknew Pharoah's heart before Pharoah was even born? Do you doubt the absolute foreknowledge of God? If God has absolute foreknowledge, then doesn't He have the right to harden Pharoah's heart first? He didn't do it that way, but why would that be different from accepting the fact that God foreknew Pharoah's destiny AFTER Pharoah hardened his heart beyond a certain point?
If you can follow that so far, then why would it be unacceptable if God not only foreknew, but PREPARED Pharoah the way he was -- literally created Him as a hard-hearted person -- in order to accomplish His will for the Hebrews and glorify Himself? Does not God have the right to do that?
KenH
Well-Known Member
That's real loving toward your brothers and sisters in Christ who are Calvinists, Helen, real loving.
1) Maybe I should, but I won't, start saying that non-Calvinism is good news for no one, not even non-Calvinists, because under the non-Calvinist scheme no one will be saved as the Bible teaches that no one can be saved by his free will. 2) Maybe I should, but I won't, start saying that non-Calvinists teach that Jesus shed His blood in vain. 3) Maybe I should, but I won't, start saying tht non-Calvinists teach that man is sovereign over God.
Maybe I should, but I won't, make a very excellent case that the above three items are the logical conclusions of what non-Calvinists teach.
Ken