Non-Calvinists, why is your God so small?

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
1) I didn't write what I wrote to upset you

2) Jesus offered him the chance to follow him and he turned it down

3) have you ever asked the lord to come in to your heart

4) wouldn't you like to know for sure

5) You can have peace of mind, like you never thought possible

6) You won't ever be afraid of Death again

7) When I accepted Christ

8) May Christ speak to and open your heart

romanbear,

I had not planned to reply to your post until after the holiday, but since you show sincerity in your concern for me(thank you for that), I will go ahead and post my response.

1) What you wrote did not upset me. Unfortunately, our language in this forum is not ususally in scholarly form, but rather blunt and to the point. I am sorry if that surprised you. I don't always do this, but my desire is to be "speaking the truth in love"(Ephesians 4:15).

2) Unregenerated man will always turn down the command of God to repent and believe.

1 Corinthians 2:14(NASB)But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

3) No. Jesus didn't want my old, rotten heart. Instead, He gave me a new heart so that I would come to Him in repentance and faith.

Ezekiel 36:26(NASB)"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

4) I do know for sure.

1 John 5:13(NASB)These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

5) I do have peace of mind.

Romans 8:1(NASB)Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

6) Death will defeated at Christ's return. I am confident of that.

Hebrews 2:14-15(NASB)14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

1 Corinthians 15:26(NASB)The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

7) Christ is not on the auction block to be accepted. I thank God that He made me accepted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:6(NKJV)to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

8) God has opened my heart.

Acts 16:14(NASB)A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Ken

 

[romanbear]

Hi Pastor Larry;

If I may be so bold as to Tell you that if you believe the first part of this message then you are not 100% Calvinist.I in no way mean any disrespect of you or your repensentation.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry______________________________
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Missionary to Germany:
Who can be saved? Every single person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. ... It is possible for everyone to be saved, if they simply accept God's FREE offer of salvation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every Calvinist believes this. In fact, it is a cornerstone of biblical soteriology. Anyone who will come to Christ will be saved.
________________________________________________________________________
I'd say amen to this if were true. The unconditional election of true Calvinist believe that if you're not elected you will never be saved no matter what you do.They believe in limited atonement, (Christ died only for the elect).They believe in Irresistible grace.(You cannot resist God when called or drawn).The only thing that I myself will agree in that Calvinist believe is that man in his natural state of sin is totally depraved.
On the same token I really don't like labels other than Christian.I personally am a committed follower of Jesus Christ, before being a Baptist, before being under any label.No label, or Church has ever saved anyone. No one else's view either.The only thing there Should be in a Christian is Christ.Other's view and thoughts of what Christianity is, are not always right.Even my own view can be wrong.We all have an obligation to be sure of our salvation.

Today being Thanksgiving as I do every day I give Thanks to my Savior for the opportunity to know Him.This I give thanks for above all else.
May God bless you

Romanbear
Peace

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken;

You posted;
1 Corinthians 2:14(NASB)But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

3) No. Jesus didn't want my old, rotten heart. Instead, He gave me a new heart so that I would come to Him in repentance and faith.
___________________________________________________________________________

The verse is correct But the Lord couldn't give you a new heart until you choose Him.

Ezk 36:26, Is not speaking to people in general, it's speaking to the Jews. Chapter 36. It's a prophecy of the jews returning to Isreal.If you aren't a Jew it has little to do with you other than knowing the prophecy.If you are Jewish then it has everything to do with the Hearts of the Jews being harden to stone.Then turned to flesh again

I'm sorry if this sounds critical but taking a verse out of context does not prove your point.
_________________________________________________________________
You posted;
Romans 8:1(NASB)Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

6) Death will defeated at Christ's return. I am confident of that.
_________________________________________________________________
Christ defeated death and Satan when he arose. This is why when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord, instead of being in abraham's bossom.
I will leave it between you and the Lord, Ken.I can only tell you the truth as I see it.I'm sorry we don't see the scriptures the same way.
May God bless you for your kindness in repling to my post.

Romanbear
Peace

[ November 28, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

 

[Missionary to Germany]

A quick question for my Calvinist friends.

How can a person know that he or she is one of "the elect?"

 

[russell55]

Anyone who has believed is one of the elect.

(This does not mean that it is your faith that causes you to be elect. It is the other way around--your election is what causes you to come to faith. But we only know we are elect by the evidenc of our faith.)

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
I'd say amen to this if were true.

It is true. So let's hear that "amen".

The only reason a person does not repent and believe is because of his sin. It's not because he is not one of the elect, not because Jesus didn't die for him, not because he wasn't effectually called, but because he refuses to obey God's command to come to Jesus in repentance and faith. Election is always unto salvation. Salvation is all of grace, reprobation is all of sin.

Ken

 

[Bible Student]

Happy Thanksgiving all!

I have not taken the time to read all the posts so if this has been asked and answered then please forgive me.

But just how does John chapter 1 fit into calvinsim?

John 1:1-9
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
KJV

If I understand English verse nine tells me all men are given light to act upon. Some must reject it if all are given it.

Richard

[ November 28, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Bible Student ]

 

[russell55]

Pastor Larry said:

Every Calvinist believes this. In fact, it is a cornerstone of biblical soteriology. Anyone who will come to Christ will be saved.

To which Romanbear replied:

I'd say amen to this if were true. The unconditional election of true Calvinist believe that if you're not elected you will never be saved no matter what you do.

Well, I don't know where you are getting your info about Calvinism, but I am a Calvinist, and I believe what Pastor Larry said is true, and every other Calvinist I know believes it too. Calvinists don't believe that the unelect will not be saved no matter what they do. We really do believe that absolutely every cotton-picken person who believes is saved, no if's, and's or but's about it.

[ November 28, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[russell55]

If I understand English verse nine tells me all men are given light to act upon. Some must reject it if all are given it.

Can you explain why you think this conflicts with Calvinism? Calvinists believe men reject the light of Christ. In fact, rejecting that light is what men naturally do, because men naturally love darkness rather than light.

[ November 29, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Bible Student]

Hi Russell55,

Thanks for the opportunity to give an answer.

I guess the reason I ask this question is that I have read so many times on other threads that God will only enlighten those who are the elect. To me when the light of Christ is shinned on anyone they will have the oppoortunity to either accept this or reject it. And God gives everyone the opportunity to receive His Gift of Salvation.

Richard

 

[Missionary to Germany]

Originally posted by Bible Student:

But just how does John chapter 1 fit into calvinsim?

John 1:1-9
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
KJV

If I understand English verse nine tells me all men are given light to act upon. Some must reject it if all are given it.

Richard

Thank you Richard for pointing this out. I have something to add to this question also.

What about Romans 1:18- 21 -

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God has made Himself known to every person born.

Psalm 19 -
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

In God's creation it cries out, "Believe in Me, for I created all things!" Then in God's special revelation, "The Word of God" declares that Jesus died for every single person and will save anyone who comes to God in repentace and trusts the Lord Jesus as Saviour.

Is it difficult to believe that God would want to save everyone? Think about it, would God really want every single person to be saved and not go to hell?

Who was hell created for in the first place?

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[romanbear]

Hi Russel;

Most people don't really know just what a particular label like Calvinism or Armininism really is. They've heard the name but the person they heard it from never really explains all the tenants of this particular following.
Calvinist believe in five basic tenants
1. Total depravity of man.
2. Unconditional election.Only the elect will be saved.
3. Limited atonement.Christ died only for the elect.
4.Irresistible grace.You cannot refuse God.You will be saved regardless of what you want.
5.Perseverance of the saints. They will always remain in a righteous condition.Even if they want to change there mind.

This comes from John Calvin the original person of whom Calvinism is named for.
Romanbear

Peace

[ November 29, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
4.You will be saved regardless of what you want.

5.Even if they want to change there mind.

This comes from John Calvin the original person of whom Calvinism is named for.

4. You are not exactly correct here. When a person is regenerated and given a new heart and a new nature, he comes to Jesus quite willingly.

Psalm 110:3(KJV)Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power...

5. Again, you are not exactly correct here. When a person is regenerated and given a new heart and a new nature, he will have no desire to ultimately leave Jesus. He will sin and may do so grievously, but God will raise him back up to a right standing in Jesus.

Romans 14:4(NASB)
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

As for as the term, Calvinism is concerned, I hope you know that it is a nickname(as a Calvinistic Southern Baptist I prefer the nickname Spurgeonite

). I also hope you know that we Calvinists believe that men before John Calvin taught the doctrines of grace, going all the way back to Augustine, and we believe going all the way back to the apostles in the 1st century and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this helps.

Ken

[ November 29, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[romanbear]

Hi brother ken;

I'd like to tell you, that I now know you believe in Jesus Christ.You are saved because of that belief.I can defenantly see the fruit of your Christianity in your writing. Believe it or not there is more things simular between you and I than you might think.I realize that most only consider themselves,Calvinist, Arminian or, Weslyian because it's what they've heard in church.A few years ago someone told me that I was 4 parts arminian and 1 part calvinist, and I had no idea what he was talking about. In fact it bothered me so much that I did a little studying to find out just what it was all about.Actually I'm neither Weslyian,Calvinist or Arminian because, I do not agree with all there points of doctrine.What I am, ("Like you"),am someone who Loves Christ and wants to be used by Him.
After being over at MSN. Groups for so long, then coming to this site. I've found more people who I know are Christian at Baptist board.com, than I ever did there. It's defenantly a real pleasure to speak with everone I've met so far.Semantics are just that ; tiny little differences that will all pan out in the end.The important thing is believing in Jesus Christ we are all brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in Him.
May God Bless you
Romanbear
Peace

 

[KenH]

Thanks, romanbear.

Actually, I have never been a member of a Calvinistic church. I was born and reared in the Pelagian Church of Christ denomination and am now a member of a standard, conservative Southern Baptist church with no clearly defined theological lines concerning the issues we debate in this forum. I became a Calvinist(Spurgeon) through Bible study, reading books, listening to the radio, and Internet materials.

Ken