Non-lordshippers

[Luke2427]

Faith without works is dead, but....

What does "dead" mean? Does dead ever mean fake, spurious, non-existent, not real, etc?

When James asked his famous rhetorical question, what did he mean by "saved" ??
Saved from what? Are there any clues?


Confessing with the mouth. Very interesting that only 3 verses later, Paul says "Call on" instead of confessing with the mouth. But for both, he says it brings "salvation"

First, saved from what?

Second, is this confession a one-time deal, or a continual confession, or something different?

So then dead faith can save?

James asks the question, "Can faith save him?"

The whole point of the context is that faith that does not produce works CANNOT SAVE HIM.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what goodb is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[Luke2427]

A car without a battery is dead.

Since it has no battery, does it cease to be a car?

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what goodb is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[Luke2427]

If you simply take the term literally: salvation by submitting to Christ as Lord, then perhaps you are right. But that is not what LS means.
Please do a search on Paul Washer + Lordship Salvation and you will find out what the term means, and what is taught as Lordship salvation.
It does turn out to be salvation by works or by obedience.

Paul Washer does not speak for all lordshippers any more than Jack Schaap speaks for all Independent Baptists.

 

[Luke2427]

That's not the confession. The confession is "the Lord Jesus." It is a confession of an eternal truth, for there is never a time on one's life that Jesus is not his Lord.

Most translations, I believe, translate it as, "Whoever cofesses with his mouth THAT JESUS IS LORD... shall be saved"

 

[Yeshua1]

So then dead faith can save?

James asks the question, "Can faith save him?"

The whole point of the context is that faith that does not produce works CANNOT SAVE HIM.

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what goodb is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

true, but what saves us is the faith object himself, jesus, and faith in Him always produces some kind of good works!

 

[Yeshua1]

Most translations, I believe, translate it as, "Whoever cofesses with his mouth THAT JESUS IS LORD... shall be saved"

,

Confession is that Jesus is God, that we acknowledge that he is Lord/God, as he will become our personal lord once saved! The ftaher installs him as our Lord, we don't have to!

 

[DHK]

Paul Washer does not speak for all lordshippers any more than Jack Schaap speaks for all Independent Baptists.

That is true. But I can find similar quotes from MacArthur and others believing the same similar doctrines. Furthermore I can demonstrate how the older commentaries denied such doctrines, as even Calvin did, by posting their commentaries. These are new and novel doctrines not known before the middle of the 20th century. They are reactionary doctrines to easy believism but they have let the pendulum swing too far into another form of error.

 

[Luke2427]

That is true. But I can find similar quotes from MacArthur and others believing the same similar doctrines. Furthermore I can demonstrate how the older commentaries denied such doctrines, as even Calvin did, by posting their commentaries. These are new and novel doctrines not known before the middle of the 20th century. They are reactionary doctrines to easy believism but they have let the pendulum swing too far into another form of error.

So then you do not believe that genuine faith produces works?

You believe dead faith can save a man?

You believe that one does not have to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord in order to be saved?

And I'd be interested in those quotes from Calvin that indicate that a man can be genuinely converted and never produce fruit and go to heaven.

 

[DHK]

So then you do not believe that genuine faith produces works?

You believe dead faith can save a man?

You believe that one does not have to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord in order to be saved?

And I'd be interested in those quotes from Calvin that indicate that a man can be genuinely converted and never produce fruit and go to heaven.

Of course not. Here is a sample of what I found. I looked up "Lordship Salvation" in "Theopedia," which must be Reformed source.
They gave a relatively good definition of Lordship Salvation, but then misaligned the non-Cal position. It was very inaccurate.

Genuine faith always produces works. There was genuine faith as the thief on the cross believed on Christ, but we can't rightly say there were any works. There was no time for works to be done. He believed; he died.

What dead faith. What is "dead faith"? Maybe you will have to give a definition of that. Faith is faith. When Jesus likened the kingdom of God to "these little children," I believe he was speaking of faith. Their faith was simple, implicit, simple confidence in the word of another such as children have in their parents. They trust their parents over a stranger. That is the kind of faith God wants of those who come to him. Put that simple child-like confidence in His word that his promises are true and that He will keep his word; just like a child believes his parents will do for him.
There is nothing innately dead or alive about faith.

Faith has an object. The object of the child's faith is his parents.
The object of our faith must be Christ. Without the object of one's faith being Christ he cannot be saved. It is the object of the faith that is important, not the nature. Faith is faith--trust, confidence.

What does it mean to confess Jesus Christ as Lord?
What does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?
What did Paul mean when he said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.?
How many "Biblical formulas" are there?

If you are going to be that nit-picky, one can end up like the Oneness Pentecostal and say you must baptize in the name of "Jesus Only" as the early disciples did.

Every Christian confesses Christ as Lord as they begin to witness for Him, after salvation. They may believe on the Lord Jesus Christ at salvation if you must draw a distinction. Let's not split hairs.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What dead faith. What is "dead faith"?

As one of the half-brothers of Christ described it in James 3:14-26, it is inactive or ineffective faith. I liken it to a dead battery. You can have the most luxurious high-performance car in the world, but without a charged battery, it's worthless.

Maybe you will have to give a definition of that. Faith is faith. When Jesus likened the kingdom of God to "these little children," I believe he was speaking of faith. Their faith was simple, implicit, simple confidence in the word of another such as children have in their parents. They trust their parents over a stranger. That is the kind of faith God wants of those who come to him. Put that simple child-like confidence in His word that his promises are true and that He will keep his word; just like a child believes his parents will do for him.
There is nothing innately dead or alive about faith.

Exactly! James was not talking about true, saving faith. He was talking about "faith" of an emotional or intellectual nature. Belief that doesn't change a life. The demons believe and tremble, but that has no eternal effect for them, nor does it for someone who believes Christ is God the Son, but takes no action to appropriate the power available through that faith.

Faith is simple. It believes the chair at the dinner table will hold it up. That's the same kind of faith required to believe in Christ. But if one believes the chair is what it appears to be, and does not sit in it, what good does that faith accomplish?

Quite simply, faith is love. Jesus said the two greatest commandments are "Love God ... love others." If we have faith in Him for who He is and what He did, and know that that faith changes us, then we have saving faith. This is the same faith James spoke of. If we have any other form of that faith, it is useless, dead -- because it is not faith at all. Faith that produces change does so because it is faith that produces love. We have no love in us, for anything or anyone, unless we first have Christ in us. And that changes everything.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course not. Here is a sample of what I found. I looked up "Lordship Salvation" in "Theopedia," which must be Reformed source.
They gave a relatively good definition of Lordship Salvation, but then misaligned the non-Cal position. It was very inaccurate.

Genuine faith always produces works. There was genuine faith as the thief on the cross believed on Christ, but we can't rightly say there were any works. There was no time for works to be done. He believed; he died.

What dead faith. What is "dead faith"? Maybe you will have to give a definition of that. Faith is faith. When Jesus likened the kingdom of God to "these little children," I believe he was speaking of faith. Their faith was simple, implicit, simple confidence in the word of another such as children have in their parents. They trust their parents over a stranger. That is the kind of faith God wants of those who come to him. Put that simple child-like confidence in His word that his promises are true and that He will keep his word; just like a child believes his parents will do for him.
There is nothing innately dead or alive about faith.

Faith has an object. The object of the child's faith is his parents.
The object of our faith must be Christ. Without the object of one's faith being Christ he cannot be saved. It is the object of the faith that is important, not the nature. Faith is faith--trust, confidence.

What does it mean to confess Jesus Christ as Lord?
What does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?
What did Paul mean when he said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.?
How many "Biblical formulas" are there?

If you are going to be that nit-picky, one can end up like the Oneness Pentecostal and say you must baptize in the name of "Jesus Only" as the early disciples did.

Every Christian confesses Christ as Lord as they begin to witness for Him, after salvation. They may believe on the Lord Jesus Christ at salvation if you must draw a distinction. Let's not split hairs.[/QUOTE



Think the main issues here would be "what MUST a sinner do to get saved by God?

Seems pretty obvious that Goid requires them to receive Jesus thru faith only

Well a saved person reflect some degree a new life in Christ then?

Yes, as the fruit is produced in us by the Holy Spirit, and we will have now a changed heart and mind towards things of God , but NONE of us grow at same maturity rate, and none of us will reach "full commitment" to "Jesus Lordship" 24/7!

 

[DHK]

Exactly! James was not talking about true, saving faith. He was talking about "faith" of an emotional or intellectual nature. Belief that doesn't change a life. The demons believe and tremble, but that has no eternal effect for them, nor does it for someone who believes Christ is God the Son, but takes no action to appropriate the power available through that faith.

Faith has nothing to do with emotions or even intellect. It is confidence or trust based on knowledge.
"The devils believe and tremble." They don't have faith. They have knowledge. They know about the power of God Almighty. They tremble at it.
Yet still being deceived their "faith" or confidence is still in their leader, Satan, and they are still deceived by him that someday he will reach his ultimate goal of overthrowing God. Their faith is not in God but in Satan, therefore they trust in Satan and rebel against God.

Faith is simple. It believes the chair at the dinner table will hold it up. That's the same kind of faith required to believe in Christ. But if one believes the chair is what it appears to be, and does not sit in it, what good does that faith accomplish?

The faith is based on knowledge. It is confidence in the knowledge that I have about the chair. If I act like a Muslim and blow myself thinking I am guaranteed a place in paradise I am acting without knowledge. That is blind faith. Blind faith is foolishness.

Quite simply, faith is love. Jesus said the two greatest commandments are "Love God ... love others." If we have faith in Him for who He is and what He did, and know that that faith changes us, then we have saving faith. This is the same faith James spoke of.

There is no reason to confuse faith and love. They are two different entities.
Faith is based on knowledge. However, since I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the more I grow with Him, the more I get to know him, the more confident I am, the more faith I have in his promises. That is how faith grows in the believer--directly proportional to our walk with God and the time we spend in the Word of God.
Compare it to your marriage. How much time do you spend with your wife? The more you spend, the more you learn. It is a relationship.

If we have any other form of that faith, it is useless, dead -- because it is not faith at all. Faith that produces change does so because it is faith that produces love. We have no love in us, for anything or anyone, unless we first have Christ in us. And that changes everything.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Faith brings peace. Read the first half of this chapter.

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
--Faith brings patience.

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith has nothing to do with emotions or even intellect. It is confidence or trust based on knowledge.
"The devils believe and tremble." They don't have faith. They have knowledge. They know about the power of God Almighty. They tremble at it.
Yet still being deceived their "faith" or confidence is still in their leader, Satan, and they are still deceived by him that someday he will reach his ultimate goal of overthrowing God. Their faith is not in God but in Satan, therefore they trust in Satan and rebel against God.

The faith is based on knowledge. It is confidence in the knowledge that I have about the chair. If I act like a Muslim and blow myself thinking I am guaranteed a place in paradise I am acting without knowledge. That is blind faith. Blind faith is foolishness.

There is no reason to confuse faith and love. They are two different entities.
Faith is based on knowledge. However, since I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the more I grow with Him, the more I get to know him, the more confident I am, the more faith I have in his promises. That is how faith grows in the believer--directly proportional to our walk with God and the time we spend in the Word of God.
Compare it to your marriage. How much time do you spend with your wife? The more you spend, the more you learn. It is a relationship.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Faith brings peace. Read the first half of this chapter.

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
--Faith brings patience.

i

Are we savd by receving jesus as our saviour, as the One who died for me, AND agree to be faithful to him all life long, or is that commitment ATER salvation?