Non-physical Humanity (was Millennium Thread)

[John of Japan]

I just took a quick look at "spiritual" in the NT. It occurs in 23 verses in the KJV. It never, ever refers to a disembodied spirit of some kind. In fact, it occurs quite often in connection with living human beings who have physical bodies. Here are some examples. (I give these fully realizing that asterisktom, after taking me to task after I referred to theologians, then deciding not to play the copy and paste game with me, may ignore this. )

Ro 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Ga 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So, "spiritual" (an adjective) in the NT never means the same as the nouns "spirit" or "ghost." (Note: "Spirit" in Matt. 14:26 is not the normal word for "spirit" as in "Holy Spirit" or the human spirit, but phanstasma. If Jesus no longer has a physical body, is He now a phantasma, a ghost?)

 

[percho]

there is no need to translate the Greek article here. why would you?

I know, no Greek. Why is it there?

 

[asterisktom]

What's the deal with the passion behind the anti-dispensationalist sentiment?

I cannot answer for KyRedneck but many of us non-dispensationalists come from a dispy background. In my case, decades of teaching and financially supporting a belief that we finally believed to be bogus. So, yes, a little heat is understandable.

And, as a general rule, non-dispensationalists are often better equipped to express and understand their former beliefs than dispensationals are able to understand the various non-disp views, views that they (dispensationalists) very often have only learned from unsympathetic sources.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I know, no Greek. Why is it there?

verse 7 reads in the Greek, "καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν", translated, "and God shaped man taking dust from the earth, and breathed into his face, breath of life, and man became a living soul".

It can read literally, "the God...the man...the man". But it is not always necessary to do this. However, in this case, the article used with the second "man" (ὁ ἄνθρωπος), is there for renewed mention, as we have "τὸν ἄνθρωπον", where the article is used because a particular "man" is in mind, Adam. We could translate the article "the God", as in The One True God, Who Created all things. But either way makes no difference to the sense in English.

 

[George Antonios]

Why the sanctimony? What's the deal with the passion behind the anti-Calvinist sentiment?

You can't ask "why"; it was predestinated

 

[George Antonios]

I cannot answer for KyRedneck but many of us non-dispensationalists come from a dispy background. In my case, decades of teaching and financially supporting a belief that we finally believed to be bogus. So, yes, a little heat is understandable.

And, as a general rule, non-dispensationalists are often better equipped to express and understand their former beliefs than dispensationals are able to understand the various non-disp views, views that they (dispensationalists) very often have only learned from unsympathetic sources.

I grew up non-dispensationalist and became one later. And I feel the same way. So yeah.

 

[asterisktom]

I just took a quick look at "spiritual" in the NT. It occurs in 23 verses in the KJV. It never, ever refers to a disembodied spirit of some kind. In fact, it occurs quite often in connection with living human beings who have physical bodies. Here are some examples. (I give these fully realizing that asterisktom, after taking me to task after I referred to theologians, then deciding not to play the copy and paste game with me, may ignore this.

No, John, all I know is that you seem to be a favorite here with the admins and I know of some who, in challenging you, have been banned. It is not worth it to me. I will take my bat and ball and play elsewhere. Nothing good can come from this kind of confrontation.

 

[John of Japan]

No, John, all I know is that you seem to be a favorite here with the admins and I know of some who, in challenging you, have been banned. It is not worth it to me. I will take my bat and ball and play elsewhere. Nothing good can come from this kind of confrontation.

I'm sorry you think this. I know of no one who has been banned from the BB for challenging me. I know of hundreds of times people have challenged me and not been banned. I do know of situations where someone has been banned for outright heresy or for disobeying the rules on civil discourse.

As for me being a "favorite" here, I myself have been rebuked/warned more than once for my conduct. I have apologized many times for my attitude or for words I have used. Here on this thread I have challenged you several times and you do not answer, though I believe I have disproved your position that Christ no longer has a physical body. You have every right to refuse to interact with me. But I still take my stand for the Incarnation of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

You see, Tom? Say the word 'spiritual' in a hive of Darbyists and you're finished.

To deny that we will have a physical resurrection, and to state that the second coming has already happened is heresy!

 

[Yeshua1]

Claiming that Jesus now lives in a non-physical spiritual body has many important ramifications. The Spirit revealed that the beast and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

These human beings will be cast into that place in their physical bodies.

A thousand years later, the devil will be cast into that same place, and the beast and the false prophet will still be alive in torment there:

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.

If one were to deny that physical bodies, such as those of the beast and the false prophet, can exist in a "spiritual" realm, such as heaven or the lake of fire, one would deny what the Bible says about the eternal conscious torment of the wicked.

Rev. 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I wonder if those who are advocating that Jesus now lives in a "spiritual, non-physical" body also deny this key doctrine that wicked humans will be tormented eternally in their physical bodies.

OT hope was the physical resurrection of the Body under messiah, and now we have that promised messiah , so why would we not expect a physically resurrection?

 

[Yeshua1]

You see, Tom? Say the word 'spiritual' in a hive of Darbyists and you're finished.

Did not know Covenant premil like me and Spurgeon were 'darbyists"

 

[Yeshua1]

says who?

1 Cor 15:44, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"

Spiritual refers to it being the glorified physical body, not being a ghost!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Spiritual refers to it being the glorified physical body, not being a ghost!

see #45

 

[Yeshua1]

Flesh and bone, yes, but spiritual flesh and bone. The nature of the rose is not the nature of the seed that was planted. Thou sowest not that body that shall be

Its the same body that we died with, now raised up and made imperishable!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm bemused. A couple of folks here think I get offended at small slights. The truth is, I believe that offensive language, small or great, should always be confronted. This is in obedience to Christ, Who taught that if I am offensive, I should make it right (Matt. 5:23-24), and if I am offended, I should make it right (Matt. 18:15-16). So if you are offensive to me on the BB, even if it is slight, I am going to confront you about it. That's Biblical. You don't have to like that, and you don't have to like me, but I will operate on these principles given by Jesus.

In this case, on this thread what is extremely offensive to me is the idea that the Incarnation of Christ was somehow reversed. THAT is incredibly offensive to me, and it should be to all thinking Christians. And it is offensive to Christ Himself.

To deny the physical resurrection, and to hold to second coming already happen, is outside Orthodoxy!

 

[Yeshua1]

...lol, how bout 'den of Dispies'?

Yuu mean like Spurgeon, Boice, Ladd, and myself?

 

[Aaron]

Spiritual refers to it being the glorified physical body, not being a ghost!

Explain "glorified." Use more than 25 words. Try some real exposition. Not drive-bys.

 

[Aaron]

To the moderators: Please forgo your antiquated page count when @Yeshua1 gets involved in a thread. His drive-by potshots contain no substance and artificially raise the post count.

 

[Aaron]

Its the same body that we died with, now raised up and made imperishable!

You need to do more study and abandon the impressions you've gotten by the artistry in the SDA Bible Story Books and Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlets.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

To the moderators: Please forgo your antiquated page count when @Yeshua1 gets involved in a thread. His drive-by potshots contain no substance and artificially raise the post count.

My cut-off is around 135 posts. If there's more to be said on a topic start a new thread.