If you are not training others to do ministry and share their faith, then what are you doing? I routinely tell the people here that part of every message is teaching them how to teach others. I am not preaching to hear myself speak. I do it to equip others. What you talk about doing one on one, others of us are trying to do 1 on 10 or 1 on 20.
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Not attending all services
- Thread starter newlady3203
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dianetavegia
Guest
I 'support' my church and pastor by teaching Sunday School on Sunday, AWANA on Wednesday night, discipleship classes on Sunday afternoon, VBS every summer and attending visitation when it's scheduled. Even tho I seldom attend Sunday night services (Youth Oriented with plays, youth praise band, etc.) I probably do more than most who are there in the pews each Sunday night. Tomorrow night is AWANA night and I have to assemble and try to control all the 3 and 4 year olds who come to be recognized. 
I expect to give my best to my employer while serving God and expect the pastor to give His best while serving God when he studies and seeks Him. He doesn't need to visit me and salve my cares. He needs to get down to business with God.
Some of those preachers only give five cents worth of what God wants too. Why should I hear some preacher who just wants to waste my time? I am not talking about a man who is not very good at preaching. I am talking about a man who does not care to know God. I could listen to a preacher who has poor skills but knows God and teaches the word all day long and not one minute of any eloquent puff of smoke. The man who knows God will never lack for anything to say worth hearing.
For two years early in my Christian life I met with a man like that. He knew God but was not a very good preacher. He exuded Jesus all over. When he died people from all over came. Even many of the leaders of the city came. Some of the businesses shut down during the funeral where he did business. Because of him numerous people were on the mission fields and pastoring churches. There were 640 people at his funeral and we figured not even half could be there because of being in another country.
You are called a worker and not a pew sitter. Getting wokers today is one of the most difficult and discouraging things for pastors. I can remember the days when workers were waiting to help.Originally posted by dianetavegia:
I 'support' my church and pastor by teaching Sunday School on Sunday, AWANA on Wednesday night, discipleship classes on Sunday afternoon, VBS every summer and attending visitation when it's scheduled. Even tho I seldom attend Sunday night services (Youth Oriented with plays, youth praise band, etc.) I probably do more than most who are there in the pews each Sunday night. Tomorrow night is AWANA night and I have to assemble and try to control all the 3 and 4 year olds who come to be recognized.
I remember reading about the time Charles Spurgeon was asked about his success and he took the man down to the basement to see people praying. He told the man that is the reason he is successful. They were praying during the service.
If you are not training others to do ministry and share their faith, then what are you doing? I routinely tell the people here that part of every message is teaching them how to teach others. I am not preaching to hear myself speak. I do it to equip others. What you talk about doing one on one, others of us are trying to do 1 on 10 or 1 on 20. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus had his disciples and preached to the multitudes. Discipleship does not come about through just reaching but training disciples. I cannot think of one example where Jesus trained (discipled) the multitudes but rather 12. If preaching made disciples then we should have the best trained Christians in the world.
I have seen people sit in the pews years after year never sharing their faith. Then when I asked them to go knock on doors with me somehow they got very uncomfortable. In fact some deacons told me they would not go. Others had every excuse in the book. But I have had many new believers go with me. Who is the disciple? The person who has been under all kinds of preaching and heard many sermons or the person who is obedient?
More preaching does not make better disciples or more obedient children.
[ April 30, 2005, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
This is beyond question the worst piece of advice that I have read in my years on the Baptist Board. Our desires should not factor into the equation whatsoever. Find a church that you can grow spiritually in. More times than not, that will mean a church that is telling you what you don't want to hear.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Absolutely wrong! Your argument is not me with friend. Your argument is with God Himself.
1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Sounds like God places a pretty high priority on preaching. Where do we hear preaching today? In our church services. Not at home, not in a one-on-one discipleship program, but in a real, live church service where the saints of God are gathered and the Word of God is preached.
You can dilute it all you want, but the fact is, God gave us preaching whereby we can grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Why would anyone willfully, deliberately, without proper cause desire not to be in church where they can hear preaching?
Pastor Bob,
You confuse me.
You say in your post to me that this argument isn't about arguing the merits of a Sunday AM;PM;Wednesday night format. It is about answering the question of "if your church does have that format should you be there."
(Remember as I have stated several times, my contribution to the argument has been that I certainly don't think one should manipulate the Bible to say that it tells us to meet in the above format; and in fact, I think it is not the best format to reproduce disciples who reproduce disciples. My opinion, yes. But based on solid reasons. But back to what I was saying...)
In another post you defend yourself against being a legalist because you are not saying you are better than others or that by attending Sunday AM;PM;WednesdayPM services you are not saying people will recieve God's righteousness.
But when Paul33 says that if you and I were pastoring churches in the same community as him and he visited both of our churches. He saw the "gameplan" that you have set up to get people to the place in their spiritual walk that they should be and he saw the "gameplan" that I set up to get people to the place they should be in their spiritual walk, he said he would choose my church.
And you tell him that is the worst post ever?
Maybe you actually do believe that you are doing it "God's way"?
And I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying when you define preaching as something we "hear in our church services." So in the countries around the world where they meet in their homes because the church is underground, are you saying they don't "preach" there?
You confuse me.
You say in your post to me that this argument isn't about arguing the merits of a Sunday AM;PM;Wednesday night format. It is about answering the question of "if your church does have that format should you be there."
(Remember as I have stated several times, my contribution to the argument has been that I certainly don't think one should manipulate the Bible to say that it tells us to meet in the above format; and in fact, I think it is not the best format to reproduce disciples who reproduce disciples. My opinion, yes. But based on solid reasons. But back to what I was saying...)
In another post you defend yourself against being a legalist because you are not saying you are better than others or that by attending Sunday AM;PM;WednesdayPM services you are not saying people will recieve God's righteousness.
But when Paul33 says that if you and I were pastoring churches in the same community as him and he visited both of our churches. He saw the "gameplan" that you have set up to get people to the place in their spiritual walk that they should be and he saw the "gameplan" that I set up to get people to the place they should be in their spiritual walk, he said he would choose my church.
And you tell him that is the worst post ever?
Maybe you actually do believe that you are doing it "God's way"?
And I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying when you define preaching as something we "hear in our church services." So in the countries around the world where they meet in their homes because the church is underground, are you saying they don't "preach" there?
Pastor Larry,
You seem so hung up on the illustrations that I have used...$3 and 10 hours etc.
I think you are assuming that I am arguing for giving less to God. I am not. But I understand why you might think that because there are many Christians who argue that they don't have to go to Sunday PM or Wednesday PM or whatever church funtion is being discussed and the reason they argue against those things is because they are not really committed to God. They are not passionate about God. I would disagree vehemently with those people.
I am not saying give God 4 hours or 6 hours. I say give God 24/7. While you work, play, eat, sleep, it is all Gods. So maybe you would be more comfortable if I changed the numbers. We have a finite amount of time to spend at church...oh let's say "$3,000,000." We have a limited amount of time and energy to spend every day...integrate God into that everyday part of your life to the tune of $55,000,000.
Are you more comfortable with that? The point is I am not minimizing one's commitment. I am not minimizing ones faith and how it impacts ones life. Live out your faith. And certainly a portion of our finite amount time should be spent gathering as a group for exhortation, encouragement, fellowship, worship. But don't limit God to that time.
And I think that gathering 3x a week the same way, at the same place, with basically the same format is not the best way. But don't twist that to say that I am arguing for less. I am arguing for more and better...both/and! Split the hours up as you wish but give God more and better.
I am a pastor who has said rather than "negotiating" with people on how to set up a church, I will start a church and set it up in the best possible way that I know how. I will seek to create environments where God can show up and people can become committed followers of Chirst. Sunday AM will be one environment. KidzQuest will be another. Summer Spectacular will be another. the 5 Mile Bible Study walk will be another...and another and another and another. So that is what I am trying to do. Am I doing it? Certainly trying. And I will continue to try to figure out ways to connect with as many people as possible and then pray that God will show up and change their lives. I simply would never be in a position where there are "things that I would like to do but can't do them." For people who want to be locked into "tradiational" methods there are plenty of places to do that. But if you choose to follow my lead or be a part of my church...enjoy the adventure. We may fail but it won't be because we did't try.
You seem so hung up on the illustrations that I have used...$3 and 10 hours etc.
I think you are assuming that I am arguing for giving less to God. I am not. But I understand why you might think that because there are many Christians who argue that they don't have to go to Sunday PM or Wednesday PM or whatever church funtion is being discussed and the reason they argue against those things is because they are not really committed to God. They are not passionate about God. I would disagree vehemently with those people.
I am not saying give God 4 hours or 6 hours. I say give God 24/7. While you work, play, eat, sleep, it is all Gods. So maybe you would be more comfortable if I changed the numbers. We have a finite amount of time to spend at church...oh let's say "$3,000,000." We have a limited amount of time and energy to spend every day...integrate God into that everyday part of your life to the tune of $55,000,000.
Are you more comfortable with that? The point is I am not minimizing one's commitment. I am not minimizing ones faith and how it impacts ones life. Live out your faith. And certainly a portion of our finite amount time should be spent gathering as a group for exhortation, encouragement, fellowship, worship. But don't limit God to that time.
And I think that gathering 3x a week the same way, at the same place, with basically the same format is not the best way. But don't twist that to say that I am arguing for less. I am arguing for more and better...both/and! Split the hours up as you wish but give God more and better.
I am a pastor who has said rather than "negotiating" with people on how to set up a church, I will start a church and set it up in the best possible way that I know how. I will seek to create environments where God can show up and people can become committed followers of Chirst. Sunday AM will be one environment. KidzQuest will be another. Summer Spectacular will be another. the 5 Mile Bible Study walk will be another...and another and another and another. So that is what I am trying to do. Am I doing it? Certainly trying. And I will continue to try to figure out ways to connect with as many people as possible and then pray that God will show up and change their lives. I simply would never be in a position where there are "things that I would like to do but can't do them." For people who want to be locked into "tradiational" methods there are plenty of places to do that. But if you choose to follow my lead or be a part of my church...enjoy the adventure. We may fail but it won't be because we did't try.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
First of all, that is not what Paul33 said. He said basically that if you don't want to attend an evening service, and don't want to be expected to attend an evening service, then find a church that does not have an evening service. In other words, find a church that fits what you want. He never mentioned getting to where he needs to be in his spiritual walk.
I would agree with your post in as much as we should carefully check out any church to see if that church will meet my spiritual needs. I don't think my personal preference of frequency of attending should be a factor.
Wrong again. I told him he had given the worst piece of advice I had ever seen. When I moderated the BV/T Forum, I saw many posts much worse than his.
Obviously, or I would change it immediately to what I did consider to be God's way.
Yes, that it what I am saying.
Yes or no, is it still a church even though they meet in homes? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you will say "yes." Therefore, the church is meeting and is conducting services and the Word of God is being preached. I'll hazard a guess of my own and say that in places such as these, the attendance is pretty much 100% each time they meet.
God has all of my time.
But I choose to worship witht he saints on Sunday mornings and don't see any reason why that has to extend into the afternoon. Let's start at 8:00 a.m. and to to 11:30 a.m. But then I want to do others things with my day.
What's wrong with that, Larry?
Once again, you confuse the issue and miss the point.
During the week, I'd rather spend a couple hours in intense Bible study and prayer either in a church building or in someone's home. What's wrong with that?
So I prefer to do in two services what you desire to do in three. What's wrong with that, Larry?
Because I'm honest and admit that I don't want to be in church past 11:30 a.m. that makes me limit God's time in my life? I don't think so.
This is beyond question the worst piece of advice that I have read in my years on the Baptist Board. Our desires should not factor into the equation whatsoever. Find a church that you can grow spiritually in. More times than not, that will mean a church that is telling you what you don't want to hear. </font>[/QUOTE]What I desire is to study, worship, and praise God on Sunday morning. Because you have a system in place that defines what a spiritual Christian is, I would skip your church. Why? Because your system is at odds with when I want to worship.
What's wrong with that? In fact, its your attitude about your system that would cause me to go somewhere else. You are what's wrong with that! I can't grow spiritually in a church that imposes false guidelines for spirituality.
We both agree that we should find a church that can help us grow spiritually. Your church wouldn't be the one for me!
HappyG ... I am not satisifed with your illustration (the $3 was mine) because you talked about "requirements" and listed all kinds of things along with hours, and you neglected any scriptural support as to how you decided what the various requirements for hours should be for each thing. And while you happily assigned hours to work, family, leisure, and whatever else (I can't remember), you omitted Christ and his body. Why? Why is it so hard to explain how you came up with those hours as "requirements" (that was your word, I believe) and why you are willing to assign hours for those and not for church.
I am not for meeting three times a week to do the same thing. I have already explained that.
I am not for meeting three times a week to do the same thing. I have already explained that.
Paul,
When you say you give God Sunday morning til 11:30 and one night week it sounds very bad. You may not have intended it that way, but that is how it sounds.
When you say you give God Sunday morning til 11:30 and one night week it sounds very bad. You may not have intended it that way, but that is how it sounds.
I didn't say that, did I, Larry?
Here's what I said:
"God has all of my time.
But I choose to worship witht he saints on Sunday mornings and don't see any reason why that has to extend into the afternoon. Let's start at 8:00 a.m. and to to 11:30 a.m. But then I want to do others things with my day.
What's wrong with that, Larry?
Once again, you confuse the issue and miss the point.
During the week, I'd rather spend a couple hours in intense Bible study and prayer either in a church building or in someone's home. What's wrong with that?
So I prefer to do in two services what you desire to do in three. What's wrong with that, Larry?
Because I'm honest and admit that I don't want to be in church past 11:30 a.m. that makes me limit God's time in my life? I don't think so. "
Yes you did say that. On page 8 you said, Ultimately, because most churches have an unwritten rule about attending church whenever the doors are open, one ultimately needs to choose one that offers only what one desires or risk being made a second class Christian in the eyes of the church leadership.
I personally prefer Sunday morning (out by 11:30) and a midweek Bible study (either in the home or the church). And that is why I said it sounds bad. When you tell God how much time you will spend with his body, I think it sounds bad at the very least. Your approach seems very unlike hte pattern of the NT to me. You are rationing out the amount of time and the things you will do based on your preference, rather than based on the fellowship and leading of Christ through his body. I find that to be strange. I see no NT basis for that, and indeed everything I see in the NT says the opposite. If others feel differently, then so be it.
I personally prefer Sunday morning (out by 11:30) and a midweek Bible study (either in the home or the church). And that is why I said it sounds bad. When you tell God how much time you will spend with his body, I think it sounds bad at the very least. Your approach seems very unlike hte pattern of the NT to me. You are rationing out the amount of time and the things you will do based on your preference, rather than based on the fellowship and leading of Christ through his body. I find that to be strange. I see no NT basis for that, and indeed everything I see in the NT says the opposite. If others feel differently, then so be it.
Pastor Larry,
I am still trying to figure out what you are hung up on.
I will try one more time. While you said you taught on work and everything being a spiritual endeavor, you must not believe it.
I will restate it one more time. I think church happens 24/7. So I am not sectioning off when church happens. I have sectioned off how many times a week and for how many hours people need to gather in rows and listen to a didactic sermon, yes. I think a few hours of that a week followed up by a small group with application is excellent. Let's be honest, you can't remember on Saturday what you yourself preached in Sunday School, Sunday AM, Bible Institute, Sunday PM, Wednesday Night. I'd rather focus on one talk...make it so good they do remember as much as possible what we are talking about....follow it up wiht application and encouragement in small groups etc. Or adding more teaching pastor to my ministry so that excellent teaching and follow up application is happening more often then just Sunday Morning...but it isn't simply the same thing.
You continue to say that I am saying less...but I am saying better. More for the sake of more is not necessary better. Less is not necessarily better. I am simply promoting thinking about what we are doing and being "better." Your application of that may be different than mine but don't change what I am saying to be simply "less" and feel self-righteous because you classify yourself as "more."
That is not a fair judgment nor accurate.
I am still trying to figure out what you are hung up on.
I will try one more time. While you said you taught on work and everything being a spiritual endeavor, you must not believe it.
I will restate it one more time. I think church happens 24/7. So I am not sectioning off when church happens. I have sectioned off how many times a week and for how many hours people need to gather in rows and listen to a didactic sermon, yes. I think a few hours of that a week followed up by a small group with application is excellent. Let's be honest, you can't remember on Saturday what you yourself preached in Sunday School, Sunday AM, Bible Institute, Sunday PM, Wednesday Night. I'd rather focus on one talk...make it so good they do remember as much as possible what we are talking about....follow it up wiht application and encouragement in small groups etc. Or adding more teaching pastor to my ministry so that excellent teaching and follow up application is happening more often then just Sunday Morning...but it isn't simply the same thing.
You continue to say that I am saying less...but I am saying better. More for the sake of more is not necessary better. Less is not necessarily better. I am simply promoting thinking about what we are doing and being "better." Your application of that may be different than mine but don't change what I am saying to be simply "less" and feel self-righteous because you classify yourself as "more."
That is not a fair judgment nor accurate.
Here's my point (yet again) ... You had no problem telling people that they were "required" (to use your word) to spend certain amounts of time at various endeavors. Yet you did not include the body of Christ in those things. Inherent in church is gathering. You don't have to do it all the same. But you had no problem setting forth "requirements" for other things, and you agree that they are spiritual things. Why the hesitancy to take the same attitude you approached the requirements for work, family, leisure, etc. and apply them to the body of Christ?
I am not in favor of more for the sake of more. I am in favor of accomplishng what God has called the church to do. I don't do the same thing at every service. I am very intentional about what we do.
But back to what I started with, this is about priorities. Why doesn't the body of Christ have a higher place in the life of people who claim to follow Christ? That was my point from teh beginning ... something that seems to be getting missed ...
I am not in favor of more for the sake of more. I am in favor of accomplishng what God has called the church to do. I don't do the same thing at every service. I am very intentional about what we do.
But back to what I started with, this is about priorities. Why doesn't the body of Christ have a higher place in the life of people who claim to follow Christ? That was my point from teh beginning ... something that seems to be getting missed ...
Larry, you make me chuckle.
The overarching theme is that God has all of my time!
You then take statements out of context.
Please answer, I would really like to know. When do you choose to meet with God's people for worship? Please list out all of the times that you normally do this in a week. Thanks.
The overarching theme is that God has all of my time!
You then take statements out of context.
Please answer, I would really like to know. When do you choose to meet with God's people for worship? Please list out all of the times that you normally do this in a week. Thanks.