Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Against your philosophy yes I am. I believe the whole bible that the Holy Spirit inspired, not just select verses used out of context to support a particular view.
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Not Closed Theology
- Thread starter Van
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Against your philosophy yes I am. I believe the whole bible that the Holy Spirit inspired, not just select verses used out of context to support a particular view.
Yes, YOURS!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In those exact words no but they sure do when they call me a humanist or other such names. And when they say "it’s you that is in rebellion." Why because I do not ascribe to your DoG. I quote scripture and what I get back is that I do not understand or in your case that I "choose to listen to something outside of scripture."
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world so are you saying that everyone is going to be saved, are you a universalist?
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
The bible is clear that people have to choose to trust in Christ Jesus
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
So while the Holy Spirit works in everyone's lives He does not move them all or even a select group to believe. God has provided the information that man through his God given free will can evaluate. Some will choose to reject Christ to their sorrow and others will trust in Him to their salvation. For by grace you have been saved through faith;... Eph 2:8
John 5:24 Ezekiel 11:19 1 Peter 2:9 2 Corinthians 5:17
So, your answer to the question, "Can a person believe, outside of the Holy Spirit awakening that person's heart and moving them to believe?" is:
No
Is that correct? Did I read you correctly?
As to your first assertion, saying you're a humanist is not even close to a "Calvinist telling you to trust in a philosophy." You are creating fantasy's in your own mind.
What I observe in your comments is that you think humans are saved by using their pragmatic and logical thinking to either choose God or reject God. Until a person makes that non Holy Spirit influenced decision, the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything.
Now, can you see how we can possibly see that view as humanist?
So, is your answer, No, to the question "Can a person believe, outside of the Holy Spirit awakening that person's heart and moving them to believe?"
Drop the whole discussion brother… he is a Free Will Sinergist who’s prospective is free will Semi Pelagian and that’s not changing any time soon, not unless the HS changes it.
But I will admit that his liking my theological belief system to Calvinists, even Semi Calvinists is disconcerting. We PB’s have never hunted people, have never hunted people down and executed them, we don’t Baptize babies or pray them in hell. We don’t revere Calvin, Zwingli’s theology nor Luther, Knox etc… nothing remotely “Reformed” or Catholic or Methodist / Wesley / Anglican Arminian etc. Before there was Catholicism etc we were there, the followers of Christ, children of God… those are my people and I will not countenance anything short of that.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I see you still do your selective style of reading. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world so are you saying that everyone is going to be saved, are you a universalist?
So your now admitting that Calvinism is not a view that people should follow, i agree.
Since Calvinism is a philosophy that came out of paganism I do believe I will avoid it. But you are welcome to it.
Well since I quote scripture and you disagree with the scripture I post then can you see why I tell you that Calvinism is a philosophy. The fact you disagree with what the Holy Spirit inspired leaves no other option.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I just find it strange that you hold to the DoG which is a Calvinist construct and then say you do not hold to any Calvinist ideas. Well since the DoG is not a biblical idea you had to get it somewhere and your Shoal Baptist points that right back to Calvinism.
I will agree with you on a few points though, we do have a God given free will and I am a Synergist. I believe and God saves which makes for a great synergism don't you think.
Are you making this passage a universalist passage?
And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me. Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
(John 16:8-11)
Do you believe that humans can become Christians without ever hearing the gospel? No missionaries would ever be needed because no matter what, humans can be saved by coming to a natural conclusion about God through rational and pragmatic decision making? Is this your belief?
Is that a question or a sarcastic comment?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@taisto I am not saying it is a universalist passage. Remember your the one that asked "Can a person believe outside of the Holy Spirit awakening that person's heart and moving them to believe?" since the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world you seem to be implying that view.
Can anyone be saved without hearing the gospel message. Well since I am not God I would not presume to tell Him what He can and cannot do. But I do know that those in the OT that trusted in God were saved and that was before the gospel message was even around.
But lets look at your question from the Calvinist point of view. You hold to the DoG and say they are based on scripture but I say your wrong and it is just a man-made prop for a wanting theology.
What do we find in the Calvinist view of who can respond to the gospel message. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this.
So your theology is the one that removes the cross, the gospel message, evangelism, missionaries etc. God according to your theology has already picked out all those and only those who are saved. It's a done deal none can be added and none can be lost. So the whole bible just becomes what? According to Calvinist's you don't even have to believe in Christ as God will give you faith.
No wonder you like Calvinism, you have no responsibility for anything. Problem is that view is not biblical.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just a statement of reality. I know these three verses will really grate on you but they are the truth so you should accept them.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Silverhair you never answer the question.
When Noah went into the boat, how many people throughout the world had saving faith?
Could they have had saving faith by natural observation of creation alone and using their pragmatism to decide to believe?
Was faith in an Anointed, promised Redeemer, not required? (see Hebrews 11)
I note that you refuse to focus on the Bible other than to quote verses that all of us believe without argument. You have created a strawman and you keep beating it to death as though you think it means anything to us who are dialoguing with you.
I think I have learned where you are coming from so this can be our last dialogue.
Why would the grate Earth Wind and Fire?
The Romans 10 verses actually seem to go against your theology, Silverhair.
OK let’s look at scripture for that answer Brother. Revelation 5:9 … Since then, God has a people in every kindred and tongue and people and nation, certainly their salvation does not depend upon a preacher's reaching them with the Gospel, but it depends upon the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now is our friend here saying that humans can deny the Holy Spirit and choose to deny Christ?
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Oh my, why would scripture grate on me… not if they are used in context. My problem is scripture used out of context and with a preponderance of constant proof texting. That Irks me because we are now playing games with scripture.
It’s not a Calvinist construct, rather it’s a biblical construct. Your a Synergist right, Roman Catholics and Methodists are also Synergistic so am I to conclude your a Catholic or a follower of John Wesley? And that’s how ridiculous you sound. BTW, how was Mass today? LOL
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That's true. But what leads up to that choice involves an explanation. Which is why if you ask me to write down as accurately as possible, everything that happens in a person's salvation from start to finish my explanation would look very "Calvinistic". But for a given individual it may be that "it just occurred to me that this was true" or "I realized I was a sinner" or "I suddenly felt the preacher was talking to me" or a person may not even know exactly when they believed. And for some people, they did sit down and count the cost and make a decision. That's why I don't get upset if someone feels they decided to come to Christ on their own. In a sense they did, and as long as they don't develop a sense of pride over their own decision I have no problem with their conclusion. Spurgeon goes into this some in his writings.
This could also be true I have to admit if you believe that the extent of the atonement was the limiting factor, which I don't.
I hate to get into these discussions because they so quickly devolve into nastiness. I don't think it is required that we understand how all this works from God's point of view. I do think that other errors can develop if you aren't careful. You can go into hyper-Calvinism or Pelagianism, depending on which way you go. My intention in getting into this discussion in this thread was only to look at the idea of whether God can really know the future if men have absolute, autonomous free will. It's interesting and fun if you are a nerd like me but I don't think it's important in a true sense of being a follower of Christ. And I still maintain that without some degree of Calvinistic determinism, you will get beat if you ever argue with an open theist. I have seen nothing on this thread to change my mind.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave I think you could do that as you see the bible text through a Calvinist lens and it works for you. I on the other hand see in scripture man's God given free will at play in ones salvation. I do not think a person just decides on their own that is why God tells us to look at creation or we hear the gospel and why the Holy Spirit convicts us. So the information and conviction are there but the person has to act upon that information. In reality man also has worldly influences that draw him away from God so that is where free will comes in. Which set of information will the person choose? Will he humble himself before God or stand in his worldly pride? As for someone developing a prideful attitude I would think that the Calvinist would be more prone to that as they could think they were so special that God picked them out of all humanity to be saved.
I agree, the atonement was sufficient for all people to be saved but only those that freely trust in the risen Son will be saved.
Yes I have experienced the nastiness on this and other boards. I tend to ignore it and put it down to the person not having a logical or reasonable argument so they lash out.
I for one would not presume to understand all of God's ways. But the idea that only those pre-chosen are saved or that one can save himself is just of the edge of the stage.
Dave you use the term "absolute autonomous free will". My question is how would that be possible? Man has a God given free will but by that statement it shows that it is not autonomous, it came from God. If the free will were autonomous then man could save himself or he could will himself to never sin again or even fly. Can man do any of those things, NO. So you are using a term, autonomous, that has no actual meaning in the matter of salvation or dealing with God.
As to dealing with an open theist, I do not know much about open theism form the little bit I have read so I will have to take your word for it.
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