Not Closed Theology

[Silverhair]

It’s not a Calvinist construct, rather it’s a biblical construct. Your a Synergist right, Roman Catholics and Methodists are also Synergistic so am I to conclude your a Catholic or a follower of John Wesley? And that’s how ridiculous you sound. BTW, how was Mass today? LOL

Neither, just a Baptist bible believing Christian.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair you never answer the question.

When Noah went into the boat, how many people throughout the world had saving faith?

Could they have had saving faith by natural observation of creation alone and using their pragmatism to decide to believe?

Was faith in an Anointed, promised Redeemer, not required? (see Hebrews 11)

I note that you refuse to focus on the Bible other than to quote verses that all of us believe without argument. You have created a strawman and you keep beating it to death as though you think it means anything to us who are dialoguing with you.

I think I have learned where you are coming from so this can be our last dialogue.

Once again you show that you just ignore answers you do not like. Go back and read post # 212

 

[Silverhair]

Was faith in an Anointed, promised Redeemer, not required? (see Hebrews 11)

I note that you refuse to focus on the Bible other than to quote verses that all of us believe without argument. You have created a strawman and you keep beating it to death as though you think it means anything to us who are dialoguing with you.

So once again you read into a text what is not in scripture. You are looking past the text to find what you want. You keep calling scripture a strawman but I note you never refute what I say with scripture but rather just with your philosophy.

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God Heb 11:3

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain Heb 11:4

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death Heb 11:5

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Heb 11:6

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household Heb 11:7

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance Heb 11:8

By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive Heb 11:11

All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance Heb 11:13

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac Heb 11:17

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau Heb 11:20

By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph Heb 11:21

By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel Heb 11:22

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents Heb 11:23

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter Heb 11:24

By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient Heb 11:31

Well from the text of Hebrews 11 it is the promises of God that they had faith in.

The only text that does mention Christ is in reference to Moses suffering the reproach G3680 of Christ. Heb 11:26
Thayer defines reproach G3680 as such as Christ suffered, for the cause of God, from his enemies.

The reproach of Christ refers to the earthly disgrace Christ received. Like Christ, Moses chose to suffer the indignities associated with God’s people, instead of embracing the worldly pleasures of Pharaoh’s court. Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary

“The reproach of Christ” is the reproach peculiar to Christ; such as he endured. The writer uses it as a current form of expression, coloring the story of Moses with a Christian tinge. Vincent's Word Studies

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave you use the term "absolute autonomous free will". My question is how would that be possible? Man has a God given free will but by that statement it shows that it is not autonomous, it came from God. If the free will were autonomous then man could save himself or he could will himself to never sin again or even fly. Can man do any of those things, NO. So you are using a term, autonomous, that has no actual meaning in the matter of salvation or dealing with God.

You are correct in you view of "autonomous" free will, except for the flying part. But it has everything to do with dealing with God and salvation. I submit that you indeed could simply will yourself to stop sinning if your view of free will was correct. Instead, we can't and keep piling up sins. When confronted, we say we are bad but not that bad and certainly better than the others. Something has to be changed within our wills before we will freely choose Christ. To that extent I am a Calvinist but in all fairness, this is also taught by classic Arminians, Wesleyans, and regular Baptists too. Calvinists don't own it and in some areas they may have gone too far in the determinism aspect. I don't know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither, just a Baptist bible believing Christian.

Hmm, forgive me if I’m misinformed but RCC teaches that ‘the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation.’ Don’t you Synergist believe this also?

We Monergists insist that if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior.

So again, there is a clear point of demarcation. And again, a Monergistic theological stance is, if man is free to resist, God is not free to act…if God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

We Monergists insist that if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior.

Great can you provide scripture and not philosophy to support this?

So again, there is a clear point of demarcation. And again, a Monergistic theological stance is, if man is free to resist, God is not free to act…if God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God.

False dichotomies its not an either or

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Great can you provide scripture and not philosophy to support this?



False dichotomies its not an either or

I already have.. for example like Gods pronouncement “ I will not yield my glory to another (Isa. 48:11)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I already have.. for example like Gods pronouncement “ I will not yield my glory to another (Isa. 48:11)

but I’ve got a question for you since you are a Reverend, I’m assuming an Arminian, so please feel free to correct me… by your free will, are you providing God all the glory? I don’t see giving all the praise to God frankly… my perception. So tell me where I’m wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

You are correct in you view of "autonomous" free will, except for the flying part. But it has everything to do with dealing with God and salvation. I submit that you indeed could simply will yourself to stop sinning if your view of free will was correct. Instead, we can't and keep piling up sins. When confronted, we say we are bad but not that bad and certainly better than the others. Something has to be changed within our wills before we will freely choose Christ. To that extent I am a Calvinist but in all fairness, this is also taught by classic Arminians, Wesleyans, and regular Baptists too. Calvinists don't own it and in some areas they may have gone too far in the determinism aspect. I don't know.

I submit that it would only be possible for a person to will themselves not to sin if they had what you call an autonomous free will which man does not have. What does autonomous mean; "not subject to control from outside". Man as you know is subject to outside control, God. So man's God given free will is not autonomous but it is a true free will. But where the stumbling block comes in is how much and when does God exercise His control.

From my understanding of scripture God has given man a limited free will such that he can and does make real choices up to and including trusting in Christ for their salvation and will be held responsible for those choices. I think A W Tozer says it best:

“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” – A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God

The other option is that God has to determine all things, man has no actual free will and thus the only responsible actor is God.

When you say that "Something has to be changed within our wills before we will freely choose Christ" I agree the person has to make a choice they have to exercise their free will. Where they did not trust in Christ Jesus they now do based upon the information they have evaluated. If you say an outside force had to change there will then you have to provide a reasonable answer as how that is the person exercising their free will. A compelled free will is an oxymoron.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are correct in you view of "autonomous" free will, except for the flying part. But it has everything to do with dealing with God and salvation. I submit that you indeed could simply will yourself to stop sinning if your view of free will was correct. Instead, we can't and keep piling up sins. When confronted, we say we are bad but not that bad and certainly better than the others. Something has to be changed within our wills before we will freely choose Christ. To that extent I am a Calvinist but in all fairness, this is also taught by classic Arminians, Wesleyans, and regular Baptists too. Calvinists don't own it and in some areas they may have gone too far in the determinism aspect. I don't know.

What do you mean you don’t know!?! Sure you do! Who came up with this Reprobate BS? Didn’t “the Puritan Way” lead to torture, expulsion, drowning and execution?

 

[Silverhair]

Hmm, forgive me if I’m misinformed but RCC teaches that ‘the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation.’ Don’t you Synergist believe this also?

We Monergists insist that if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior.

So again, there is a clear point of demarcation. And again, a Monergistic theological stance is, if man is free to resist, God is not free to act…if God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God.

Did you forget that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set. So while you Monergists can insist on your idea all you want if your idea does not agree with scripture, which it does not, then you are wrong. Perhaps you should give your idea a rethink?

I do note that you say "we think" or "this is our stance" and that is your right to do so. In other words you have made a choice which requires free will that is unless you are going to say all that you think or all the stances you take are determined for you by God. But in that case it would not be what you think or your stance but rather what God determined for you.

Can man resist the will of God? Well the evidence for that is all around us and we also exhibit it in ourselves all the time. What is the will of God as we see it in the bible? How about "all to come to repentance" 2Pe 3:9 or how about this one "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Luk_10:27
So because we do resist God's will does that mean God is not free to act?

 

[37818]

. . . confess . . . .

Confession is a work of faith, as is prayer and beliver's immersion aka baptism.

 

[DaveXR650]

Man as you know is subject to outside control, God. So man's God given free will is not autonomous but it is a true free will. But where the stumbling block comes in is how much and when does God exercise His control.

I agree. You have the Holy Spirit being essential in order for man to be saved and you have man with a "true" free will. A Calvinist would say that by definition that has to either be overcoming grace or else is was not truly necessary. That's why I say you just have to sit down and try to resolve it in your own mind. Most serious Calvinist theologians, if you really read them, say that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility operating at the same time is difficult to understand. I admit I don't have it all figured out.

 

[DaveXR650]

What do you mean you don’t know!?! Sure you do! Who came up with this Reprobate BS? Didn’t “the Puritan Way” lead to torture, expulsion, drowning and execution?

This is just my opinion but the problems the Puritans had in those areas came from trying to mix civil government too much with your religion. It set up conditions that blew up with the right combination of isolation and hardship and is unfortunate and inexcusable. Notice that while in the Netherlands the Puritan groups were not "in charge" governmentally and came to be widely respected and well thought of in the community where they were living, and had none of the tendencies you mentioned. But I could be wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

but I’ve got a question for you since you are a Reverend, I’m assuming an Arminian, so please feel free to correct me… by your free will, are you providing God all the glory? I don’t see giving all the praise to God frankly… my perception. So tell me where I’m wrong.

Since this is God's pronouncement “ I will not yield my glory to another (Isa. 48:11) My question is how does a person meeting the requirement of God for salvation, faith in His son Christ Jesus, take any glory from God. If a person could save themselves then I could see where you would say that but that is not what the bible says is it. For by {God's} grace you have been saved {how} through faith; and that not of yourselves, {you can not boast} it {salvation} is the gift of God; Eph 2:8

That is why we present the gospel to the lost. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, Rom 1:16

 

[Silverhair]

I agree. You have the Holy Spirit being essential in order for man to be saved and you have man with a "true" free will. A Calvinist would say that by definition that has to either be overcoming grace or else is was not truly necessary. That's why I say you just have to sit down and try to resolve it in your own mind. Most serious Calvinist theologians, if you really read them, say that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility operating at the same time is difficult to understand. I admit I don't have it all figured out.

When you use the term "overcoming grace" which has to come from God then logically that form of grace is only used selectively or all would come to faith. So the end result is still determinism and those not subject to this "overcoming grace" have the perfect excuse for not trusting in the Son.

I do not see where God's sovereignty and man's free will operating at the same time is hard to understand. It only becomes a problem when you conflate sovereignty with determinism. God is always sovereign but He does not always determine all things that happen. Jeremiah 32:35 God in His sovereignty has given man a free will and they have abused it. But they have also used it to turn to God in faith. Ephesians 1:13 Simple clear and biblical.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did you forget that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set. So while you Monergists can insist on your idea all you want if your idea does not agree with scripture, which it does not, then you are wrong. Perhaps you should give your idea a rethink?

I do note that you say "we think" or "this is our stance" and that is your right to do so. In other words you have made a choice which requires free will that is unless you are going to say all that you think or all the stances you take are determined for you by God. But in that case it would not be what you think or your stance but rather what God determined for you.

Can man resist the will of God? Well the evidence for that is all around us and we also exhibit it in ourselves all the time. What is the will of God as we see it in the bible? How about "all to come to repentance" 2Pe 3:9 or how about this one "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Luk_10:27
So because we do resist God's will does that mean God is not free to act?

It is a fallen world. The primary issue still remains in adding anything at all to Gods Grace is to distort its graciousness, it’s very nature as a gift. So if man is free to resist then Gods not free to act because he is bound by man’s freedom which interferes. God is then not Sovereign. If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God. But in a fallen world, our unfortunate real live condition, Gods Grace had better be irresistible or man’s will can remain forever opposed to God, and the will of the creature overrides the will of the Creator. But that could never happen right?!?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is just my opinion but the problems the Puritans had in those areas came from trying to mix civil government too much with your religion. It set up conditions that blew up with the right combination of isolation and hardship and is unfortunate and inexcusable. Notice that while in the Netherlands the Puritan groups were not "in charge" governmentally and came to be widely respected and well thought of in the community where they were living, and had none of the tendencies you mentioned. But I could be wrong.

Yes… anytime you attempt to set up a theocratic government it doesn’t work. Being a Capitalist w/o Religion attempting political sway is mandatory for growth & prosperity.

 

[DaveXR650]

When you use the term "overcoming grace" which has to come from God then logically that form of grace is only used selectively or all would come to faith. So the end result is still determinism and those not subject to this "overcoming grace" have the perfect excuse for not trusting in the Son.

The problem is that most Calvinists (it's even in the Westminster Confession of Faith) believe that those not subject to overcoming grace were still subject to some grace and operation of the Holy Spirit, yet they chose to resist, and God honored their free will. The difference between you and a Calvinist is that a Calvinist will say that the true reason they were saved was that God's grace in their case was enough to overcome their natural will whereas you would say the true reason was that you were able to correctly evaluate the evidence you were presented and make the correct choice. I'm not trying to be critical here but that is what is going on here. And I admit you may be right so go ahead and own it.

I do not see where God's sovereignty and man's free will operating at the same time is hard to understand. It only becomes a problem when you conflate sovereignty with determinism.

It only becomes a problem when you truly admit that both things are really operating. If you go all in for free will as you do it's not a problem, neither is it a problem for Calvinists who do make man into some kind of automaton. There are branches of Calvinism that say that God has nothing to say to the non-elect and there is no offer of the gospel to them. I'm just saying that plenty of Calvinist theologians don't do that but admit it is a difficult, maybe even an impossible thing for our human understanding. Once again let me say that my personal belief is that from our point of view, it is easy to see, and not in any way a stupid conclusion, that you made the decision to come to Christ. I also think that when you really look into everything you will start realizing more and more how much of your salvation was God's doing. It truly bothers me that people get so upset with each other over this, especially Calvinists, because if you truly believe the Holy Spirit quickens you and changes your will - then do you not still expect people to experience this as them acting according to their will?

 

[Silverhair]

It is a fallen world. The primary issue still remains in adding anything at all to Gods Grace is to distort its graciousness, it’s very nature as a gift. So if man is free to resist then Gods not free to act because he is bound by man’s freedom which interferes. God is then not Sovereign. If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God. But in a fallen world, our unfortunate real live condition, Gods Grace had better be irresistible or man’s will can remain forever opposed to God, and the will of the creature overrides the will of the Creator. But that could never happen right?!?

So you agree that God is still sovereign, that's a good place to start. Man actually makes real choices. And I have to conclude that you believe the bible.

So you have to deal with these two verses
How about " not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2Pe 3:9
or how about this one "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Luk_10:27

Did all come to repentance 2Pe 3:9 or did some resist God and do you EFW fulfill Luk 10:27 or does anyone? So the options are 1} man can resist God or 2} God works against He own desires. Which option do you choose?

And this one is really going to give you a bit of trouble
"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer_32:35

Did God make them build the high places of Baal and sacrifice their children to Molech or did they resist the will of God and do it?

So because we do resist God's will does that mean God is not free to act is God not still sovereign?