He also said we all must die once. But Enoch?
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Not to bring up the Catholic thing again, but...
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He also said we all must die once. But Enoch?
GBC Pastor
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Enoch and Elijah will die, it just hasn't happened yet.
As to the thief on the cross. Does the thief really fit the bibles perimeters to salvation for today? He did not have the kind of faith that is required for salvation today.
Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth that Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
To be saved according to the gospel we must believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead. The thief on the cross could not possibly believe that, since Jesus had not died let alone been raised.
The thief was saved while the Old Testament was still in effect. He is not an example of salvation under the gospel at all.
While Jesus was on earth, He had the power to forgive people directly as He chose. After His death, people can be saved only according to the terms of His will.
"Jesus directly forgave people during His lifetime (apparently according to His ability to read their hearts and observe their lives). The gospel came into effect after He died, and people today receive forgiveness only by complying with its terms. Those terms require baptism, as well as faith".
Here are a couple of examples of Him forgiving sin while on earth.
He exercised this authority on several occasions
For the paralytic - Luke 5:18-26
For the sinful woman -Luke 7:36-50
Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth that Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
To be saved according to the gospel we must believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead. The thief on the cross could not possibly believe that, since Jesus had not died let alone been raised.
The thief was saved while the Old Testament was still in effect. He is not an example of salvation under the gospel at all.
While Jesus was on earth, He had the power to forgive people directly as He chose. After His death, people can be saved only according to the terms of His will.
"Jesus directly forgave people during His lifetime (apparently according to His ability to read their hearts and observe their lives). The gospel came into effect after He died, and people today receive forgiveness only by complying with its terms. Those terms require baptism, as well as faith".
Here are a couple of examples of Him forgiving sin while on earth.
He exercised this authority on several occasions
For the paralytic - Luke 5:18-26
For the sinful woman -Luke 7:36-50
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Mark 1:4-5 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then ALL the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Not so sure the thief on the cross was not baptized. He might have been baptized and slipped back into sin. We don't know.
Not so sure the thief on the cross was not baptized. He might have been baptized and slipped back into sin. We don't know.
And what kind of faith is that? Is that the same kind of faith that an infant has in order to be baptized--magic; superstitious faith? Yes indeed! Sounds like the RCC; in fact it sounds just like like the Hindus blind faith as they baptize themselves in the Ganges River in blind faith that the holy waters of that river will wash away their sins. That is the kind of faith you are speaking about, right?
Did Jesus tell him he would be raised? Did the thief believe Him? Did he tell him that "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." What did he think that meant? In fact, it is quite possible, based on the repentance of the thief, that he had heard Jesus teaching before.
On that basis then, none of the disciples were saved. Is this what you are saying. During the time of the gospels (OT dispensation), no one could be saved, including the disciples, because Jesus had not died. This would be inspite of Peter's great confession.
Then He doesn't have to forgive you. He is (according to you) someone who is aloof from his creation, moody, unchangeable, cannot be depended upon to save anyone, and just saves who he wants. You have no guarantee of salvation at all no matter what you do. What did you say?
"People can be saved only according to the terms of his will.[/b]
So what if it is not his will to save you?
You have yet to offer any solid evidence that those terms require baptism. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Can you show me where Peter was even baptized.
So these are examples of all unsaved people?
You are absolutely sure that these people are unsaved, even though there sins are unforgiven.
I suppose that Moses was an unsaved person too, as well as Abraham, for they were under that same OT covenant.
Is this what you believe?
'You have yet to offer any solid evidence that those terms require baptism. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Can you show me where Peter was even baptized.'
You can't show me that Peter wasn't baptized either. Nor can you know that the theif on the cross wasn't baptized. The above post with the reference to Mark 1:4-5 gives pretty good evidence that he probably was.
It's interesting to note that there are even Baptist on this board that believe that baptism is necessary to salvation. It's very difficult to read the bible and conclude much else.
Here is the Scriptures, go ahead and apply your usual Baptist spin:
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Acts 22:16 - Be baptized and wash away your sins.
Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:26,27 - We are baptized into Christ, into His death. We have newness of life after we have been baptized (John 3:3,5).
I Pet. 3:21 - Baptism now saves us.
You can't show me that Peter wasn't baptized either. Nor can you know that the theif on the cross wasn't baptized. The above post with the reference to Mark 1:4-5 gives pretty good evidence that he probably was.
It's interesting to note that there are even Baptist on this board that believe that baptism is necessary to salvation. It's very difficult to read the bible and conclude much else.
Here is the Scriptures, go ahead and apply your usual Baptist spin:
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Acts 22:16 - Be baptized and wash away your sins.
Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:26,27 - We are baptized into Christ, into His death. We have newness of life after we have been baptized (John 3:3,5).
I Pet. 3:21 - Baptism now saves us.
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Emily25069
New Member
Lori
It is easy, isnt it?
I just cant imagine that those verses-in many places would be worded the way that they are if they arent true. They back eachother up completely.
Now, as a Lutheran, I also believe that you can be saved by hearing the preaching of the word that creates faith in you, but once you have that faith, then you go get baptized for the remission of sins.
Had you not been able to be baptized, would you go to hell? hmm.. probably not. This is probably why baptists say that baptism doesnt save you.
Unfortunately, whether or not I or you or anyone *understands* how it all fits together, the bible does say that it is for our salvation, and who are we to say that Gods word doesnt say something that it clearly says?
It is easy, isnt it?
I just cant imagine that those verses-in many places would be worded the way that they are if they arent true. They back eachother up completely.
Now, as a Lutheran, I also believe that you can be saved by hearing the preaching of the word that creates faith in you, but once you have that faith, then you go get baptized for the remission of sins.
Had you not been able to be baptized, would you go to hell? hmm.. probably not. This is probably why baptists say that baptism doesnt save you.
Unfortunately, whether or not I or you or anyone *understands* how it all fits together, the bible does say that it is for our salvation, and who are we to say that Gods word doesnt say something that it clearly says?
'Had you not been able to be baptized, would you go to hell? hmm.. probably not. This is probably why baptists say that baptism doesnt save you.'
I would think that would be a case of 'baptism by desire'.
Yes, the bible is quite clear. These verses always bothered me even though I tried to buy the Baptist spin on them. It occured to me that if I never had Baptist teaching on this and were to pick up a new testament for the first time and read it, the only conclusion I could have is that baptism is necessary. You just can't ignore the fact that the Early Church Fathers also believed baptism was necessary.
I would think that would be a case of 'baptism by desire'.
Yes, the bible is quite clear. These verses always bothered me even though I tried to buy the Baptist spin on them. It occured to me that if I never had Baptist teaching on this and were to pick up a new testament for the first time and read it, the only conclusion I could have is that baptism is necessary. You just can't ignore the fact that the Early Church Fathers also believed baptism was necessary.
Helloooooooo there????????????????
Have you ever heard of the "Anabaptists" and why they were called "Anabaptists" and why the RCC persecuted them even unto death.
Ana means again. They baptized again. They did not believe the first baptism (infant), coming before salvation, was baptism at all. You can be baptize once or a hundred times. But it is not baptism if it occurs before salvation. The thief got saved, cried out to Christ on the cross. He then died. Where was the time for him to get baptized?? Please I want to know the answer to this miraculous dilemma that you pose when you said
"Nor can you know that the theif on the cross wasn't baptized."
You also said: "You can't show where Peter was baptized either."
Helllooooo Again!!!!
The onus is on you to prove that he was.
Can you prove that he wasn't typing on his laptop computer.
Can you prove that the thief wasn't eating an ice cream cone as he was dying?
Why are you trying to argue these things from silence. It can't be done.
Not that I know of.
Repent and be baptized.
Believe and be baptized. Over and over these statements are made. Baptism follows the other. It follows, but is not a part of the other. How can one conclude any thing else but (unless they have been brainwashed by some cultish organization).
Why not quote the whole verse to keep it in context.
Compare it to Mat.3:11 and study the usage of the Greek word eis "for" in this verse and "unto" in Mat.3:11. They both can be translated with the sense of "because of." We are baptized because our sins have been remitted. That is why John the Baptist baptized. "Unto Repentance." Do you really think that the baptism he baptized with brought repentance to those sinful Pharisees? Or did they have to repent first, and then be baptized. Think carefully about your answer.
When was Paul saved. Was he saved on the road to Damascus when he met Jesus and called him Lord, and prayed to him, saying "Lord what will thou have me to do?" That is when I believe he was saved. The Greek also gives another construction that you need to study about Acts 22:16. But even here you have a theological problem if you are going to maintain that Paul was not saved until he was baptized. He had already submitted to Christ as his Lord. So a person submits to Christ as Lord, but is not saved. That is what you believe?
Romans 6:3,4 gives us a picture. It is a picture of our death to sin and our resurrection to a new life in Jesus Christ. It is symbolic of our baptism with Christ, and nothing more. Do more study. It says nothing of baptism being necessary for salvation. Where do you get that from?
There is not one word of "baptism in John 3:3,5; not a word. The context is the new birth. There is no talk of baptism. If you think it is speaking of baptism you are dead wrong. This is where the RCC teaching is wrong, and on this very important and necessary teaching of the Bible, they are deceiving people and sending them straight to Hell.
What did Jesus say?
Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
To be born again is necessary to go to heaven.
But if a person thinks that it is baptism then that person is on their way to hell not heaven. How dangerous it is to play and twist the scriptures to a person's own eternal destruction.
Again you give no context, and for good reason.
You leave out a number of important facts. I will give you two of them.
The verse starts out this way. "The like figure...." In other words it was an example, an illustration.
Secondly, immediately after the part of the verse you quoted it says:
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
--It is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. Baptize your flesh all you want, but it cannot save you. Peter says that. It is not the flesh. Rather the answer of a good conscience toward God that comes by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That comes only by faith in Jesus Christ, not by baptism. Baptism only represents what is done in the heart.
--Be sure to read the preceding verses that led to this verse. Noah was baptized too. He also was saved. How was he saved? What was he saved from? How do you think that applies to this verse?
Emily25069
New Member
eis means FOR, not because of. Its a very obscure rendering from what I understand, to read it as "because of".
and it doesnt read right if you insert "because of" in there.
Over and over and over we show you the baptism verses that refer to baptism being for the remission of sins...for our salvation..
doesnt mean a lick to you. it CANT mean what it says because you have already decided that it isnt possible.
There is a very good reason that bible says "repent" before baptism over and over and over.. and that is because it is speaking to adults.
When it comes to adults, this is the right method.
However, infants are a different category.
Are you saying that an infant either 1. Cannot be saved? or
2. God has some other way of saving them other than by grace through faith?
Cause see, my bible doesnt give infants a different way.
It is consistent with how God worked with infants all throughout history.
Baptism is not a work of man. it is a work of God.
We are not being baptized into "Pastor Joe's" name. We are being baptized into Christ.
I trust in my baptism not because it was a bath, but because of the fact that it is Gods way of uniting me to Christ. It is the means of grace.
And for the 50th time, God saves without baptism. I know this. Catholics know this. Nobody thinks you MUST HAVE baptism at all costs to be saved. (well, perhaps I shouldnt say nobody) but scripture teaches that baptism saves. it does NOT teach that its only for obedience.
Some things are just a mystery and we dont understand why.
and it doesnt read right if you insert "because of" in there.
Over and over and over we show you the baptism verses that refer to baptism being for the remission of sins...for our salvation..
doesnt mean a lick to you. it CANT mean what it says because you have already decided that it isnt possible.
There is a very good reason that bible says "repent" before baptism over and over and over.. and that is because it is speaking to adults.
When it comes to adults, this is the right method.
However, infants are a different category.
Are you saying that an infant either 1. Cannot be saved? or
2. God has some other way of saving them other than by grace through faith?
Cause see, my bible doesnt give infants a different way.
It is consistent with how God worked with infants all throughout history.
Baptism is not a work of man. it is a work of God.
We are not being baptized into "Pastor Joe's" name. We are being baptized into Christ.
I trust in my baptism not because it was a bath, but because of the fact that it is Gods way of uniting me to Christ. It is the means of grace.
And for the 50th time, God saves without baptism. I know this. Catholics know this. Nobody thinks you MUST HAVE baptism at all costs to be saved. (well, perhaps I shouldnt say nobody) but scripture teaches that baptism saves. it does NOT teach that its only for obedience.
Some things are just a mystery and we dont understand why.
Tell me about your experience. This is want to know.
Did God come down and baptize you? Did you see him? What did He look like? Please describe him for me. Did He look like Da Vinci's painted him in the "Last Supper", or one of the paintings of Michelangelo? What did God or Christ look like, if indeed He did baptize you?
Now tell the truth? Was it a man or woman that baptized you? If a man what did he look like. I suppose his appearance is not that important as long as you recognize that he is a member of the human race. You were a person baptized by another person of the Adamic race. Mankind being baptized by mankind. God did not baptize you. Baptism is a command given to man for man to you. It is not done by God. It is a work of man, just like prayer, evangelism, Bible study, and every other command that Christian's do. It is a work. It is done in obedience to Christ.
What did Christ say to his disciples in Mat.28:19,20
1. Go, and teach all nations (disciple, save),
2. baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Ghost,
3. teaching them to observe all things.
3 separate commands. Baptism follows salvation all the time.
On the Day of Pentecost:
They the heard the word of God (were saved), baptized, and added to the church (at Jerusalem).
--Baptism always follows salvation. Show me where it precedes salvation.
You can't.
John's baptism was one of repentance under the OT.
When someone repented, they were baptized by John.
Did the baptism cause them to repent? Or was the baptism a sign of repentance? It was a sign, since repentance took place before baptism.
NT baptism is also a sign. We are saved, then baptized in the name of Christ as a sign of our identification with His death, burial and resurrection.
This is not rocket science.
When someone repented, they were baptized by John.
Did the baptism cause them to repent? Or was the baptism a sign of repentance? It was a sign, since repentance took place before baptism.
NT baptism is also a sign. We are saved, then baptized in the name of Christ as a sign of our identification with His death, burial and resurrection.
This is not rocket science.
Emily25069
New Member
A man priest baptized me as a baby. I dont remember what he looked like.
Then I was baptized again as a teenager in a lake by a pentecostal preacher.
Then I was baptized again as a married woman in a baptist church because I wasnt sure "I meant my baptism" when I was a teenager.
So no.. God didnt come down and physically baptize me.
however, I was baptized "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
And this was commanded in scripture. "in the name of" has more significance than baptists believe. The word of God makes this so.
We Lutherans believe that baptism is gospel. Baptists believe that it is law.
This is why the two sides cant really have a conversation about it. They are talking about different things.
Also..
one thing I wanted to mention is that making disciples ALSO comes after believe, repentence, and baptism, but I havent met a baptist yet who didnt try to disciple their child into the faith-teaching them the Holy scriptures-teaching them Gods word-teaching them to trust God. Teaching them to pray.
Why teach a child to pray before they are even saved?
makes no sense.
No.. startving a childs life of faith with their baptism from birth makes much more sense. then there are no confusing messages sent to the child. Most children have more faith than we do, but they still have to get saved?
maybe it is brain science.
Also
Then I was baptized again as a teenager in a lake by a pentecostal preacher.
Then I was baptized again as a married woman in a baptist church because I wasnt sure "I meant my baptism" when I was a teenager.
So no.. God didnt come down and physically baptize me.
however, I was baptized "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
And this was commanded in scripture. "in the name of" has more significance than baptists believe. The word of God makes this so.
We Lutherans believe that baptism is gospel. Baptists believe that it is law.
This is why the two sides cant really have a conversation about it. They are talking about different things.
Also..
one thing I wanted to mention is that making disciples ALSO comes after believe, repentence, and baptism, but I havent met a baptist yet who didnt try to disciple their child into the faith-teaching them the Holy scriptures-teaching them Gods word-teaching them to trust God. Teaching them to pray.
Why teach a child to pray before they are even saved?
makes no sense.
No.. startving a childs life of faith with their baptism from birth makes much more sense. then there are no confusing messages sent to the child. Most children have more faith than we do, but they still have to get saved?
maybe it is brain science.
Also
It is also not biblical. Repent AND be baptized for the remission of sins. You can't exclude the AND from the text. It's there no matter how much SPIN Baptists try to put on it. Deal with it!
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Already asked that :laugh: Wish I hadn't. I guess since some can read minds and come to the conclusion he desired baptism, that is good enough to be baptized. Good ole RCC theology :laugh:
That is what Peter preached. Show me where Peter (or any of the other apostles) practiced what they preached. How do you know any of them were baptized? Where is the Biblical precedent for their baptism?
He very well might have been baptized. You and I don't know. Not everything that Jesus did and said is written in the New Testament. Not everything His disciples did and said is written in the New Testament.
There are enough scriptures that link baptism and faith to salvation for me. Sorry you buy the Baptist spin. Most of the Christian world has never bought it.
The Anabaptist can't be traced back to the time of the Christ no matter what "The Trail of Blood' says. Study history.
Are you serious??????
This would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Have you ever read any history of crucifixion? They were left on the cross for the birds to devour. Who would have baptized the thief's dead, decomposed body?
For you to even speculate that he was baptized in light of what is written in scripture and the historical facts is beyond ridiculous.
Amy, you need to read the whole thread. I wasn't talking about after the crucifixion, I was talking about before. We don't know whether he was baptized or not.
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