Obab

[steaver]

GE

I don't quite understand you; are we not all on the same side? Jhn 5:24¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. "Verily Verily", is an Oath; an Oath Jesus takes! How can I doubt Him?

Amen brother! Why don't you understand me?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

GE

You know, DHK it breaks my heart this saving truth is so -- what shall I say -- fought against, attacked, as if antichrist itself! What! Can't we agree on the heart of the Gospel; must we tear apart Grace itself, and divide Divine Love as could it be untruthfull to itself!? It is the shame of Christianity Christianity itself is so disgraced!

Amen brother! :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And the silence of the Arminians is ear-piercing!

 

[LeBuick]

Since you seem to want to claim this is NOT OSAS -- explain how in your view - the "born of God" are lost in some cases.

The prerequisite to being saved is you first must be lost. This is why the angels can’t sing the song of salvation. Adam was not saved before his sin because he had never sinned and repented.

Thinking contrary would make 1 JN 5:18 wrong because it clearly says anyone born of God cannot sin.

1Jn 5:18 (KJV) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The prerequisite to being saved is you first must be lost. This is why the angels can’t sing the song of salvation. Adam was not saved before his sin because he had never sinned and repented.

Thinking contrary would make 1 JN 5:18 wrong because it clearly says anyone born of God cannot sin.

1Jn 5:18 (KJV) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

GE

I wholeheartedly agree and accept. But you have chosed the most difficult of verses to illustrate or emphasise your point. Can't you give us other texts to explain it? Or explain 1Jn5:18? It's a difficult one!

 

[trustitl]

GE
How did Paul find it he always was confronted by the old Paul whenever he wanted to do good? He even said his old self was bound upon his back until such day Christ shall release him from his own old self, Romans 7?

Actually the word being dealt with in Romans 6-8 is sarx ie. flesh. Old self is nowhere to be found. I know how important the scripture is to you :thumbs: .
Romans 6 clearly is talking about what happens at salvation not at some point in the future.

Rom. 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I AM delivered from the body of this death right now. Yea, I know it doesn't feel like it to me either.

I know it won't be real popular but Paul is talking about his unregenerate state in Romans 7. Can't believe it? Then I guess you go on serving sin because it has dominion over you. Not me, I am a servant of righteousness, not because of anything I did. It says made free.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How?

Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

OR my favorite:

Col 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

GE
Life has taught me as long as there is this war going on within I have hope.

Sound spiritual, but don't base your theology on experience.

GE
You have no battle with Self?

Actually I am having a battle (fight) of faith. You can keep on fighting a dead man in you want. I have to believe something outside myself.

 

[LeBuick]

GE

I wholeheartedly agree and accept. But you have chosed the most difficult of verses to illustrate or emphasise your point. Can't you give us other texts to explain it? Or explain 1Jn5:18? It's a difficult one!

Jn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Adam was not Born AGAIN so he was not saved and had no promise of eternal life. In fact he had just the opposite, he had a promise that if he sin's he would surely die. The previous verse I quoted says that a man that is born again "sinneth not".

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE
Life has taught me as long as there is this war going on within I have hope.

Trustiti
Sounds spiritual, but don't base your theology on experience.

GE
You have no battle with Self?

Trustiti
Actually I am having a battle (fight) of faith. You can keep on fighting a dead man in you want. I have to believe something outside myself.

GE
Now you decide who really here is 'subjective'?
You are so subjective, brother - 'basing your theology on experience' - you don't even notice you live in a dream-world.

Let's start with being realistic, just by looking at the word 'flesh'. To be realistic requires that one sees its use as metaphoric. Paul walked not about with a Paul's-body or Paul's-flesh bound on his back. He meant a very alive inner-self-Paul.

It's a very old debate whether Paul speaks of pre- or post- regeneration in Ro7. I believe - with all 'Reformed' opinion as far as I know, he speaks as the regenerate Paul. Of course he does, just the historical reality of time taken into consideration. Paul didn't write Ro7 before his conversion. He speaks about himself as and for what he was while he wrote, and that was the converted, reborn, Paul. Wakie wakie!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Adam was not Born AGAIN so he was not saved and had no promise of eternal life. In fact he had just the opposite, he had a promise that if he sin's he would surely die. The previous verse I quoted says that a man that is born again "sinneth not".

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

GE
Now I understand you even less! You mean Adam is lost? From the fact he sinned? That Christ provided not for his sin? I'm at a loss!

 

[trustitl]

GE
Now you decide who really here is 'subjective'?
You are so subjective, brother - 'basing your theology on experience' - you don't even notice you live in a dream-world.

Let's start with being realistic, just by looking at the word 'flesh'. To be realistic requires that one sees its use as metaphoric. Paul walked not about with a Paul's-body or Paul's-flesh bound on his back. He meant a very alive inner-self-Paul.

It's a very old debate whether Paul speaks of pre- or post- regeneration in Ro7. I believe - with all 'Reformed' opinion as far as I know, he speaks as the regenerate Paul. Of course he does, just the historical reality of time taken into consideration. Paul didn't write Ro7 before his conversion. He speaks about himself as and for what he was while he wrote, and that was the converted, reborn, Paul. Wakie wakie!

If I were to base my theology on experience I wouldn't have come up with this believe me. If I live in a dream world, having the Christian experience be " the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" would be a nightmare. If this is a dream then I guess I'll keep :sleep: . :thumbs:

I can see where you think it is a metaphor in Romans 7 due to the real metaphor of the husband needing to die. (The husband is the flesh: it is not until it is dead can we be married to another, that is Christ. When we are crucified with him we are dead.)

The following are not metaphors; they are the truth. III John:4 "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth."

Gal. 5:24 "24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Col 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances"

Rom. 8: 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I am not trying to be contentious at all. I used to think the same way you apparently do. I found no victory in it because there is none. Praise God I now know that I am no longer in bondage.

Romans 6:9 "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

6: 18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Trustiti
"I am not trying to be contentious at all. I used to think the same way you apparently do. I found no victory in it because there is none. Praise God I now know that I am no longer in bondage."

GE
I for no moment doubt your honousty and uncontentiousness - it is obvious, and is most appreciated.

But have another look, "I found no victory in it because there is none." If you are honest and sincere then it is Christ in you who I firmly trust will reveal to you in His own time and way, the Victory you have had in Him, but now for a time only I pray, have begun doubting. You will not find victory in telling yourself you have found victory - in yourself? No that's not Christian faith! Christian faith is placing all your trust in Christ. Do not trust this 'new man' who tells you you are him -- he's a fake - a con-man, beware!

 

[trustitl]

I know my victory is in Him and I am not trusting the new man.

I am standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises that cannot fail,
When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail,
By the living Word of God I shall prevail,
Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises of Christ the Lord,
Bound to Him eternally by love’s strong cord,
Overcoming daily with the Spirit’s sword,
Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises I cannot fall,
Listening every moment to the Spirit’s call
Resting in my Savior as my all in all,
Standing on the promises of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ah, you are safe and sure midst this your daily conflicts with your old man! How is it the poets are the ones who are able to effortlessly say what the theologians with all their might try to say but just cannot?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I guess it's 'inspiration'! Yes - combined with freedom!