Gerhard Ebersoehn said:GE
But about Galatians -- I cannot accept at all Paul poses the Law against Grace in that Letter, or that Law and Grace are opposed anywhere in Scripture. Christian Faith in the Law is a believing in Jesus Christ the Word of God, the Likeness of God - God Himself The Law. So how ever in all eternity could there be a rivalry between God's revealed Law in Word of Scripture or in Word of the Person of Jesus Christ?QUOTE]
The only rivalry that exists is between our minds and our flesh. (See Romans 7) The law was intended to bring us to Christ so that we could be free from the struggle. The law is then no longer needed. I know it is not very popular but "the law is not for a righteous man" and I am righteous (God said so :thumbs: ). Romans 5:19 "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous". And that not only positionally, but practically. Yes, we can live lives pleasing to God. The book of Galations tells us how.
The book of Galations is not an explanation of how to get saved although it does do that. Mostly, it is a plea for those already Born of God to live by faith, walking in the Spirit. I am sorry that this got so long, but I hope it explains what I mean. Please feel free to ask for clarification since I'm only a painter and it is a little late:laugh: .
1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel"
As a OSAS as you claimed, how do you explain this verse? He is not saying that they are unsaved and need to get born again, again. If he were, the book would have been very different.
Observe the following that show Paul was talking about living out the Gopel:
2:19 "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
This righteousness is in the context of living (not the word live 5X) a life pleasing to God. Peter was dissimulating (being a hypocrite) by living one way around the Jews and another around the Jews. Paul says in chapter one that he is not seeking to please me like Peter was. This is why Titus did not get circumcised even though some oddballs were checking them out.
2:14 "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (walk 1X, live 2X)
3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
They know they didn't get saved by keeping the law but they were now going to live by the law. Paul does a little word play with "in the flesh" (eg. works and in particular, circumcision) vs. "in the Spirit".
4:9 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
Another OSAS dilemma. They were obviously saved according to these verses and the few before. Were they going to lose their salvation by going back under the law, referred to here as dealing with weak and beggarly elements.
5:2 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
Are they going to lose their salvation? No, they are going to be brought back under the bondage of trying to keep the law.
5:7 "Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you."
They were running well (ie. living). But now some leaven, the false teaching that was saying to keep the law, was messing everything up (the whole lump). Paul had high hopes for those who had been "judaized" but not for the judaizers. He does another word play here with verse 12 "I would they were even cut off which trouble you."
5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
These are living out the gospel verses. We are led by the Spirit not the law. Don't throw out anti-nomian claims here. A man is under the law only as long as he lives (remember that we are "crucified with Christ"). He also says it in 5:24.
Here is where we need to understand what grace is. It is to often confused with mercy. Websters 1828 understood it: Grace: "Favorable influence of God; divine influence or the influence of the spirit, in renewing the heart and restraining from sin." Check out the Greek too.
After listing the works of the flesh come the ever popular fruits of the spirit. How do these get produced in our life. Well, by the Spirit obviously. BUt then Paul adds "against such there is no law" at the end of v. 23. I think this verse is terribly misunderstood. Most people understand it to mean that these things are not in opposition to the law. Why in the world would Paul say that?! He has been talking about how to live.
The word "against" can be mean: "In provision for; in preparation for." See your dictionary again. Also the Greek is kata which would be more in line with this definition. In other words there is no law that can produce the fruits listed here. Take a look at the laws. The command is there to be "temperate" in different ways but there is no provision in the law to do it. Not so with the Spirit. It is he who getus us to "will and to do" these things. Before, Paul wanted to do it but couldn't.
Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
The gospel provides us how to perform that which is good, and no, it is not to become lawkeepers. If you think it is, I hope you are up for stoning people not eating shrimp or cheeseburgers because that is in the law.
Galations 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth(eg. helps us perform) any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk(live) according to this rule" Paul gives a blessing.
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Obab
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Once born of God, Always born of God.
No objections as of yet?
When Nicodemus was told by Jesus "ye must be born-again" Nic could not comprehend the possibility of an already having been born person going back from whence he came (unexisting, not born) and being born once again. And rightly so, once born your born, it cannot change.
Jesus uses the perfect analogy, a birth, for His revelation of those who would be born of God spiritually.
God bless! :wavey:
No objections as of yet?
When Nicodemus was told by Jesus "ye must be born-again" Nic could not comprehend the possibility of an already having been born person going back from whence he came (unexisting, not born) and being born once again. And rightly so, once born your born, it cannot change.
Jesus uses the perfect analogy, a birth, for His revelation of those who would be born of God spiritually.
God bless! :wavey:
Trustit!
"The only rivalry that exists is between our minds and our flesh. (See Romans 7) The law was intended to bring us to Christ so that we could be free from the struggle. The law is then no longer needed. I know it is not very popular but "the law is not for a righteous man" "
GE
If I remember correctly the verse says the Law is for the transgressor. That means, would one who thought he was 'righteous' (free of or above the Law) transgress the Law, it as it were springs into life again and is 'quick' to condemn that man so happy in his vain 'righteousness'. Now who of us every moment of his life is not a sinner? And so, says Paul, "Don't you know man is under the Law for as long as he lives?" Even the most of righteous men! You, included, dear brother, like me. We are free, only because we are found in Christ; only because He, for us, in our place, bore the pnealty of the Law. The Law is alive as ever - for the transgressor! But so much more is our Refuge! Therefore, indeed, for those in Christ, the Law no longer is needed. I cannot more heartily agree with you! Now, if ever confronted with a question of right or wrong, good or bad, profitable or detrimental, duty or non-obligatory, essential or unnecessary, holy or profane, pure or polluting -- Christ fills the mind, and the heart, and leads us by the hand, and in conscience -- and we follow, being drawn by bonds of love and 'kind'-ness. (Like cohesion between particles of the same matter.) WHAT IS OUR LIFE GOING TO LOOK LIKE NOW? And the absolute first thing I believe our life is now going to look like and in fact is going to be like, is "The Body of Christ's Own" the Community of the saints, the Fellowship of the Believers -- THE CHURCH!
"The only rivalry that exists is between our minds and our flesh. (See Romans 7) The law was intended to bring us to Christ so that we could be free from the struggle. The law is then no longer needed. I know it is not very popular but "the law is not for a righteous man" "
GE
If I remember correctly the verse says the Law is for the transgressor. That means, would one who thought he was 'righteous' (free of or above the Law) transgress the Law, it as it were springs into life again and is 'quick' to condemn that man so happy in his vain 'righteousness'. Now who of us every moment of his life is not a sinner? And so, says Paul, "Don't you know man is under the Law for as long as he lives?" Even the most of righteous men! You, included, dear brother, like me. We are free, only because we are found in Christ; only because He, for us, in our place, bore the pnealty of the Law. The Law is alive as ever - for the transgressor! But so much more is our Refuge! Therefore, indeed, for those in Christ, the Law no longer is needed. I cannot more heartily agree with you! Now, if ever confronted with a question of right or wrong, good or bad, profitable or detrimental, duty or non-obligatory, essential or unnecessary, holy or profane, pure or polluting -- Christ fills the mind, and the heart, and leads us by the hand, and in conscience -- and we follow, being drawn by bonds of love and 'kind'-ness. (Like cohesion between particles of the same matter.) WHAT IS OUR LIFE GOING TO LOOK LIKE NOW? And the absolute first thing I believe our life is now going to look like and in fact is going to be like, is "The Body of Christ's Own" the Community of the saints, the Fellowship of the Believers -- THE CHURCH!
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This to me is where Ethics starts and also stops. For a Christian there is nothing right or wrong, good or bad, but as and while and in being a member of this Body that is The Body of Christ, and of Christ's Own. The concepts of sin or righteousness (for me), does not exist outside or apart from the knowledge and faith and assurance that I have, that I am Christ's. The 'old' Law no longer forms the framework of my referencing. Christ, and being Chrits's in being His Body the Church, for the Christian is the only 'verwysingsraamwerk'. There's a very apt phrase in English, but I just can't recall it now.
sorry, computer delayed too long, double post deleted
steaver said:
GE
A birth - what beautiful analogy. Years ago, in the 'evolution-period of my youth from (in the easiest words) Arminianism to Calvinism, I wrote a little essay on this spiritual wonder. And I saw the new-born baby, (how shall I put it in English?) searching, wanting, the breast it hasn't known from before at all! That to me was just as great a miracle!
trustitl said:
steaver said:
GE
My wife has just asked me what I'm doing? I told her I was on the internet. I said,It's a waste of time, but I have so much time for free left over I must try use a bit. Now I see it isn't waste of time. (Troeste dich mein Volk!)
I love the Messiah! Do you?
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
The scriptures are what says my old man is dead, not me. If I go by my experience, I would probably conclude otherwise because I to often do what the old man did. However, it is not the old man sinning it is this new creation doing it.
I don't see any hypocricy in that, but not arguing is fine with me. :thumbs:
Jhn 5:21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
This is a good passage speaking of those who become born of God.
Jhn 5:24¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus spoke the truth as always and has said those He quickened (born-again, born of God) shall not come into condemnation.
Good point brother! :thumbs:
Still haven't heard any scriptures presented for the side of once born of God one could become unborn of God. I haven't found any myself, but maybe I am missing something.
Good post brother. You presented scripture that specifically speaks of "born of God". If others are having trouble finding scripture that specifically speaks in this phrase (born of God) you can also use "born-again" "quickened-eth" "child of God" "children of God" "passed from death unto life" ........use any terms that refer to the "REgeneration" of the human spirit by God.
As most should clearly understand, this is different than creation itself, as in being created in the womb or in Adam and Eve's case being formed from the dust of the earth for Adam and a rib bone for Eve and given the first breath of life .
God Bless! :thumbs:
In these OSAS (or OBAB) discussions, I never see the use of Romans 2 in regards to the "circumcision of the heart". When one is circumcised physically...can that ever be undone? Why do we believe that the circumcision of the heart to be any different?steaver said:
trustitl said:
GE
How did Paul find it he always was confronted by the old Paul whenever he wanted to do good? He even said his old self was bound upon his back until such day Christ shall release him from his own old self, Romans 7?
Life has taught me as long as there is this war going on within I have hope. You have no battle with Self?
Nevertheless, you are right, and I too believe, it is I, child of the Father in Jesus Christ who is doing the sinning still! Therefore do I not cease to pray for God's grace, nor stop the fight until victory be attained in the day of resurrection. You see I don't say in the day of my dying? For that day the fight shall have been ended, but the victory nor the reward not yet. So, the old self is still putting up a fight inside; But God the thanks, the battle is not won inside me; it was won in Christ and by Him. His is all honour.
steaver said:
GE
I don't quite understand you; are we not all on the same side? Jhn 5:24¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. "Verily Verily", is an Oath; an Oath Jesus takes! How can I doubt Him?
DHK said:
GE
You know, DHK it breaks my heart this saving truth is so -- what shall I say -- fought against, attacked, as if antichrist itself! What! Can't we agree on the heart of the Gospel; must we tear apart Grace itself, and divide Divine Love as could it be untruthfull to itself!? It is the shame of Christianity Christianity itself is so disgraced!