I think that's good. I don't advocate mistreating anyone. But I think it's important to understand that Islam does preach violence against Christians and they do have an agenda. All those kids you played with in school will grow up and they'll be tempted to follow the ideology they've learned. Smiles and handshakes can be very deceiving.
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Obama Endorses Mosque Project Near Ground Zero Site
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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I think that's good. I don't advocate mistreating anyone. But I think it's important to understand that Islam does preach violence against Christians and they do have an agenda. All those kids you played with in school will grow up and they'll be tempted to follow the ideology they've learned. Smiles and handshakes can be very deceiving.
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Dragoon, what is your point? Do you want the heavy hand of government to do away with freedom of religion?
I'm not deciding "how" you answer questions; I just want to know if you'll ever actually answer the question that was asked. When you decide not to answer the question that was asked, you know what that implies, don't you?
(by the way: The answer to your question is "I've never beaten my wife." See how easy that is to answer?)
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My argument in this discussion has always been: Don't miss the trees for the forest. Yes, islam is a false religion; does that mean every single person in its estimated 1 billion member religion is, or potentially is, a die-hard fanatic? Your answer is a resounding "yes"; I disagree.
You see, I *have* trusted individual muslims with my life, and the lives of over 20 of my close military associates, including Canadians and South Koreans. For six months in Iraq, and for just short of a year in Afghanistan.
Abraham, Ibraham, Nikmal, Naseem, Sharif, Saboor, Habib, Pearsnay, and Tyson (we never could figure out how to say his name, much less spell it, and since he liked Mike Tyson, we just called him Tyson). Two of them American citizens. As interpreters, they were the most important people in our teams. When surrounded by crowds because of a vehicle breakdown, or simply sitting in our daily sessions drinking chai and munching on almonds and dried peas, they were right there with us, shoulder to shoulder.
Interpreters go out with our military members, usually without body armor, and without weapons. They stand at the forefront with the team leader, and they do the talking. They are the mouthpieces of Americans. We trust them implicitly with our lives and our words.
Yet, if we take pictures with them, we're not supposed to put them on the internet, or otherwise let them get out because their support makes them and their families targets. More than one interpreter has been killed because he "actively" supported Americans.
Yes, that's right: muslims dying for Americans.
Let me tell you about Mohammed. I worked with Mohammed in Iraq. One day, a sniper took a shot at Mohammed's car simply because Mohammed was working with us. No other reason. Sad part is, Mohammed wasn't even in the car, and the sniper was a poor shot; so the bullet went through Mohammed's daughter's cheek, and lodged in Mohammed's sister's shoulder. To my knowledge, the sister still has the bullet in her shoulder. The daughter may never have access to plastic surgery, and may live with that scarred face for the rest of her life. Because her father was helping us.
One of the men on Mohammed's crew...he went up on an antenna tower with four other men to install a U.S. communications dish. Not for muslim use; only for U.S./NATO use. In other words, he had no real vested interest in going up there. One might say "for the paycheck"; he was the only survivor of a sniper attack. And he still works with/for Americans. You explain to me how that's "for the paycheck."
You want to broad-brush islam as a false religion, I'll back you 100% and help you spread that word all day long.
You want to say that individual people within islam are untrustworthy - you're wrong. I took offense when you first said this, because you're talking about the people who stood next to me, putting their lives on the line just as much as any other young American soldier.
Will I tell them they practice a false religion? You betcha. Will I thank them for their service to America? You betcha.
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I told you, I'll answer the questions the way I want to - not to give you the answer you want to be. You will not bully me into saying what you want me to.
You're not alone here in having served in the military in a war nor in having worked with foreign troops, police, and civilian officials. As was pointed out before, it is possible for Muslims and Christians to work together on matters other than religion and military actions is one of them with which I'm very familiar. When there's a common interest of human survival even bitter enemies will form alliances to defeat another enemy. But, make no mistake about it Don, these people aren't dying for America in the sense that the patriots and heroes of our history have. Don't be deceived by the smiles, handshakes, and even the brotherhood of combat. They will turn on you and cut your throat if that suits their later purposes. I could tell you some really sad stories in this area. Some of the saddest involve interpreters which is why I've always felt it best to train our own. But, all that's another story.
Don, if you're still actively serving I urge you to be very careful about who you trust. Some people will work very hard to build up your trust only to gain the access they need. In places like Iran and Afghanistan you cannot be too careful about who is really your friend after the battle. I can appreciate how you might develop a sense of respect and even admiration for the locals that you work with. I can even understand how you could develop a certain fondness for them. That comes about with just about anyone you share combat with. I have to say I've felt the same way about those I worked with and men - both our own and hour host nation - that I would otherwise never have associated with.
Regardless, Don, none of that changes the fundamental belief of Islam nor the directives in the Koran and, ultimately, not the actions that such believers are bound to take. They are all believers of the same lies and slaves to the sinfulness of it. The only way out is for them to accept Jesus Christ. Until they do they cannot be trusted to live peacefully among us. They will work aggressively or passively to advance Islam and slowly change our laws, customs, traditions, etc. to match Islamic law. They will push first for acceptance - in the name of "tolerance", "diversity", "interfaith cooperation", etc. - and then will come a long list of demands. Ultimately comes violence - you may live long enough to see that but I probably won't. You will then wonder how could your "friends" turn on you? The answer will be that they are Muslims and Allah is greater to them than God or you or me or anyone else in the way.
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I want the heavy hand of government to stop pandering to the Muslims and using the offices of government to encourage the growth of Islam in America.
You're going to have to explain yourself more, because I believe you're accusing me of supporting islam. Again, I point you to the multiple posts where I've stated my position on that subject.
Please provide an apology for misrepresenting my position.
"Bully"? You mean by demanding that you just answer a simple question? Even providing an example that it can be done?
You accuse me of misquoting you, but you take full liberty in twisting around my questions so that you can answer them the way you want to. Chew on that for a while.
Your problem, sir, is that you know that if you answer the question honestly, then you also have to admit something that doesn't fit your particular world view. And that, my friend, is intellectual dishonesty.
It occurs to me: an additional insult in what you've written is that you believe I have no discernment, and am a poor judge of character. I assure you, my friend, that I trust no one in a potentially dangerous situation until they've proven themselves. Even my own fellow countrymen; there's been once or twice when I looked back to make sure they were covering my back, only to find out they'd panicked and run.
Dragoon, you've insulted the character of personal friends of mine. I've attempted to point out why these particular people don't fit the mold that you broad-brush all muslims with, but I believe you're too closed-minded to accept any possibility other than the one you've made yourself believe in. I will no longer waste your time.
But I do reiterate: Let me know when/where you're going to sound off against islam, and if possible, I'll be there to back you up.
No, I mean by you demanding that I answer your question your way else, by your ruling, my answer is not acceptable. Read back to your interrogation of "did you or did you not", "answer the question", etc. I think my answers were clear enough - they just didn't fit your objective. Who do you think you are? So now I'm just making it clear to you one more time that I'm going to write what I want to write - not what you want to me right. That's hard to accept isn't?
Nope! You did misquote me and literally so. But I clearly understood what you did was just to illustrate your point of view. I didn't ask for nor demand an apology. I didn't take it as an offense or a dirty trick. All I asked, and politely so, was that you not do that else someone else could read what you wrote and think that's what I wrote. How difficult can this be for you to understand and acknowledge? Is winning an argument that important to you that your can't even be polite in return? Not only that but despite explaining this to you several times now you just keep going back through the same old bull.
Hogwash, Don! My worldview on Islam is real clear. It's a religion based on lies and its follower are slaves to its sinfulness. Until they repent and turn to Christ they cannot be trusted not to follow Allah and his words because they process to do so. What about that doesn't fit with God's word?
What's the problem now, Don? You're too sensitive if you got that out what I wrote! I actually attempted to empathize with you some as it seems we may, in some respects, have some similar experiences working with foreign troops in combat. I did give you some words of wisdom about that based on my own experiences but in no ways was that to insult you or your own experiences. It's just that I've seen how people you think are your friends can turn on you when the situation changes. Some actually befriend our troops for that very purpose. I understand the world of war fighting very well and so I understand how alliances can be formed between the most different of entities for the sake of mutual survival against a common enemy. I tried to tell you that I understand that because I've been there and remember men who I'd counted as my friends at the time and since even though we didn't share a common belief in the one true God. But there were a couple of cases that turned out to be big surprises to everyone involved.
I did not insult the character of your friends! I've offended the religion of your friends who are Muslims and for that there will be no apology. As fellow sinners I don't know where they stand and have reason neither to insult or praise them. You seem high on them based on your experiences which is understandable as previously mentioned. I don't know them individually so I couldn't make that judgment. But as slaves to the sinfulness of Islam I count them as enemies of God in need of His salvation and, because they are Muslims, a serious risks to Christians because of the instructions in their Koran which they hold scared and feel compelled to follow.
How about sounding off right now against a government that is pandering to Muslims in an effort to increase "tolerance", "diversity", and "interfaith cooperation", etc.? How about sounding off about a President that hosts dinners in the White House to celebrate Islamic holidays? How about a President that meddles in the business of the NYC but encouraging the construction of a Islamic mosque right next the site where the WTC was destroyed by Islamic terrorists? How about taking a stand against building any mosque in America - not because it's not illegal - but because it's wrong and bad for America.
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Tolerance for what?
You called them untrustworthy because of their religion, without actually knowing anything about them personally. I understand that you're trying to talk about the religion of islam; but your words keep pointing to individuals.
Posted by Don:
Draw your own conclusion.
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I could not trust them because they are Muslims and that faith is based on lies and preaches violence towards Christians. I don't have to know anything more about them to draw that conclusion. It's really that simple!
That doesn't mean I couldn't work with them on some activity of common benefit - like war fighting as an extreme - and "trust" them to some extent in those activities just like I could other non-believers or believers for that matter. You can recognize and appreciate skills, abilities, traits, etc. in all men regardless of belief. But, in the end, true character only comes from the new "heart" that God gives us when we're reborn.
I understand it can be difficult to accept that your friends have an allegiance to a belief system that surpasses their friendship with you. But, think about it, your allegiance to God surpasses your friendship with them. The difference is that your Bible doesn't instruct you to go out and kill non-believers because they are non-believers. On the other hand, their Koran could possibly put you or your family on their hit list.
In the time and place you knew them - worked with them - that risk was probably remote - maybe even the opposite was true - but change the venue and I'll bet the true Islamic beliefs would eventually come out in full force. All things would then be done in the name of Allah - not personal friendships. We even have recent examples - remember Ft. Hood and others before that even in the military - that clearly illustrate what can happen with Muslim beliefs and influence from their leaders override individual relationships.
I cannot afford to trust them or any other Muslims with respect to their potential treatment of Christians given the opportunity. We, as a nation, had better not trust that either because a big problem is brewing right here at home that we will eventually have to deal with. Your Muslim friends will not stand up for you then.
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Pay attention to the progression of the conversation. I copied your part of your message that said "sound off," insinuating that I wasn't. I then posted multiple copies of statements I've made from this thread. Anyone reading these can draw their own conclusion as to whether I'm "sounding off" or not.
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You see, here's my problem: I probably lean way too much towards "hate the sin, love the sinner." While espousing that islam is a false religion, just like I do for Mormonism, Catholicism, and the brand of "baptist" that Fred Phelps claims to be, I have hope for salvation for each and every individual muslim, mormon, catholic, and even "Phelpsians" (just made up that designation myself; wonder if it'll catch on).
I'm also offering an apology to everyone here, because I realize that I've let emotions run into this conversation (and others on this board) way too often, and my wife and I are just now realizing that I'm probably still recovering from the last couple of years.
I acknowledged that but still see the danger of befriending Muslims thinking they can be trusted.
There's nothing wrong with "hate the sin, love the sinner" but we need to know the sin and the sinner for what it and we are. It's not a matter of "hating" Muslims. It's a matter of knowing the nature of their sinful religion and understanding the particular risks we can face from it. I know you understand this and I applaud your willingness to befriend others, respect them as individuals, and try to be an example to them in the name of the Lord. I'm with you on that, my friend, but "trust" for me is another matter.
I've been there and completely understand. I'm still recovering from things that happened decades ago. My concern with "trust" probably relates back to those experiences. Like many veterans you will carry those things with you to the grave. I'm absolutely certain the experiences have an impact - one way or another - on everyone. You'd have to be an zombie for it not to. Just hope that you will live to see a final victory for the efforts you expended. The only relief is through God's comforting hand and the knowledge that, in the end, everything will be okay through and by Him.
I find the dialogue on the BaptistBoard to be interesting, informative, challenging, but also dangerous. I think it's very easy to get drawn into a fight from the keyboard with someone you can't see and don't fully understand. In that respect it's too easy to type out something you might not say face-to-face. You can find yourself arguing over something you probably don't really disagree about and before long you loose sight of what it was all about. I think sometimes people actually agree but end up disagreeing because they misunderstood each other. Other times the differences are so fundamental - usually liberal verses conservative - that there just can't be any agreement - it's North and South poles! Sometimes I think the best thing would be to withdraw but not wanting to be a "quitter" makes that really hard to do. Perhaps that is sinful pride or maybe just determination - we still have a sinful nature even with a new "heart". I try to do right but, like everyone else, I slip and fall a lot.
Don, I respect you and the position that you've expressed. I thank you for the opportunity to debate these matters with you. I hope that I've not been to harsh about it and, if I've said things I shouldn't to you or about you, then I sincerely apologize for that. I wish you the very best and hope you'll continue to engage in the debates on the BaptistBoard.
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Honestly, I don't think a lot of Muslims in the US are willing to turn on their citizens in a blink like that. Many join the religion because it makes sense to them or whatever, so they see themselves as having just adopted a belief system that works for them.
So we are looking at a hypothetical situation of some future war between Islam (the religion, not just particular countries) and the US or the West. I think the only way something like that could erupt, is if the entire religion decided to stand behind those countries we are fighting against.
Then, you have the center and originator of Islam, Saudi Arabia, which I think is supposed to be friends with us, but then sometimes you ultimately wonder, especially with the religion that to some extent binds them together with the enemies, some of whom like Osama even come from that country.
If something like that ever were to happen, it would depend on the individual mosques and their affiliations. I'm not sure how tightly aligned they are all, with each other, or with any central Islamic authority, like in Mecca or whatever. They don't seem as divided as Christianity, however, but there are factions, who interpret the Koran differently; some explaining away "hard" passages, just like many Christians do in theological issues.
Likewise, a lot of people think we all (Christians) follow the Pope, who claims to derive his authority from the apostles.
So our Muslim neighbors might find themselves having to make a choice. And they are individuals with choice like all the rest of us. Some might possibly go along with it, (especially any who might have had ulterior motives all along) but others might not. If war against the US wasn't their purpose for joining the religion, then that might be the thing that pushes them away from it. Like anyone else who joins a cult for the sense of belonging or whatever, and eventually finds it is more than they bargained for.
So we are looking at a hypothetical situation of some future war between Islam (the religion, not just particular countries) and the US or the West. I think the only way something like that could erupt, is if the entire religion decided to stand behind those countries we are fighting against.
Then, you have the center and originator of Islam, Saudi Arabia, which I think is supposed to be friends with us, but then sometimes you ultimately wonder, especially with the religion that to some extent binds them together with the enemies, some of whom like Osama even come from that country.
If something like that ever were to happen, it would depend on the individual mosques and their affiliations. I'm not sure how tightly aligned they are all, with each other, or with any central Islamic authority, like in Mecca or whatever. They don't seem as divided as Christianity, however, but there are factions, who interpret the Koran differently; some explaining away "hard" passages, just like many Christians do in theological issues.
Likewise, a lot of people think we all (Christians) follow the Pope, who claims to derive his authority from the apostles.
So our Muslim neighbors might find themselves having to make a choice. And they are individuals with choice like all the rest of us. Some might possibly go along with it, (especially any who might have had ulterior motives all along) but others might not. If war against the US wasn't their purpose for joining the religion, then that might be the thing that pushes them away from it. Like anyone else who joins a cult for the sense of belonging or whatever, and eventually finds it is more than they bargained for.
Let's hope that's the case - that they turn away from Islam and to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let's also be prepared for the case where they would not and would instead join a fight from within.
In the mean time, let's discourage - not encourage - the growth of Islam in America.