Obama leaving with high approval rating

[Baptist Believer]

If I preach/teach that th message ofte Gospel is atonement and social works on equal footing, that is indeed another Gospel! We need to be saved from our sins first before any good works to be done!

You are not saved unless you enter into the life of Jesus through discipleship. As part of counting the cost, we understand that we are called to social action. One can certainly get a distorted gospel and still come to faith in Christ, and then later learn about discipleship, but that's not being a faithful witness, nor giving people an adequate view of Jesus. You have written often of your concerns that people might not hear about the "real Jesus." You can be sure you are not telling them about the real Jesus unless you tell them about His teaching, His calling, and His ministry. To simply focus on the atonement as a means of getting people "saved" at the expense of being called to do good works and social justice is the definition of presenting a false Jesus.

We cannot be right with the One whom we have not seen, unless we are right with our brothers and sisters in need, and love those around us.

James 1:26-27
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

James 2:14-20
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:16-18
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

1 John 4:20-5:3
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[Yeshua1]

So if you were about to die from starvation and someone offered to feed you you would ask if they were saved and refuse to eat if they said that they did not believe in Christ or God?

Are you a preacher of dip them and drop them?
Are you concerned about the welfare of people, whether Christian or not?

Jesus was most concerned with their spiritual condition, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are not saved unless you enter into the life of Jesus through discipleship. As part of counting the cost, we understand that we are called to social action. One can certainly get a distorted gospel and still come to faith in Christ, and then later learn about discipleship, but that's not being a faithful witness, nor giving people an adequate view of Jesus. You have written often of your concerns that people might not hear about the "real Jesus." You can be sure you are not telling them about the real Jesus unless you tell them about His teaching, His calling, and His ministry. To simply focus on the atonement as a means of getting people "saved" at the expense of being called to do good works and social justice is the definition of presenting a false Jesus.

We cannot be right with the One whom we have not seen, unless we are right with our brothers and sisters in need, and love those around us.

James 1:26-27
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

James 2:14-20
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:16-18
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

1 John 4:20-5:3
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

We are saved by the Grace of God alone, thru faith in Jesus only, and then we can do good works in Hisname, but we cannot make those works as part of the salvation process!

 

[Baptist Believer]

We are saved by the Grace of God alone, thru faith in Jesus only, and then we can do good works in Hisname, but we cannot make those works as part of the salvation process!

Jesus is a Person, not an object or talisman. If we are being saved through Jesus, it would stand to reason that we would want to listen to what He has to say. Jesus called women and men into discipleship - there is effort involved. It is not a passive intellectual "faith." It is a faith that involves trusting Jesus for all of life.

Jesus has made works part of the salvation process, whether we like it or not. Certainly, we do not EARN or RETAIN salvation through works, but if we do not INTEND to exert EFFORT into discipleship, we are not saved.

 

[FollowTheWay]

"Real Christians?"

Yes. Authentic Christians did not fall for Satan's offer to give them the world. Jesus resisted but the hypocrites today went for it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is a Person, not an object or talisman. If we are being saved through Jesus, it would stand to reason that we would want to listen to what He has to say. Jesus called women and men into discipleship - there is effort involved. It is not a passive intellectual "faith." It is a faith that involves trusting Jesus for all of life.

Jesus has made works part of the salvation process, whether we like it or not. Certainly, we do not EARN or RETAIN salvation through works, but if we do not INTEND to exert EFFORT into discipleship, we are not saved.

Good work show that we re now saved, have NO part in getting us saved!

 

[FollowTheWay]

We are saved by the Grace of God alone, thru faith in Jesus only, and then we can do good works in His name, but we cannot make those works as part of the salvation process!

Historically, that is NOT what Baptists believed. The bedrock New Hampshire Confession says:

XI. OF THE Perseverance OF SAINTS.

We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; [2119] that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; [2120] that a special Providence watches over their welfare; [2121] and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. [2122]

Southern Baptists accepted this until the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message which introduced "easy believerism." Hershel Hobbs was the chief proponent of this weakening of the faith. D.L. Moody argued against it. The 1925 Baptist Faith and Message states:

All real believers endure to the end. Their continuance in well-doing is the mark which distinguishes them from mere professors. A special Providence cares for them, and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

This is what my grandfather and mother believed and what I believe.

 

[just-want-peace]

So if you were about to die from starvation and someone offered to feed you you would ask if they were saved and refuse to eat if they said that they did not believe in Christ or God?

Are you a preacher of dip them and drop them?
Are you concerned about the welfare of people, whether Christian or not?

Crabby, you are getting back into your old habit of implying motives to others when they don't agree with you.

Read your posts and think about them before you "POST".

Might diminish the snarky replies you get.

 

[JonC]

Jesus preached a social gospel.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 6:31New International Version (NIV)
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

• 
  
  
  • "Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21
  • • "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18
    • "So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22 [ E-book: The Kingdom strikes back ]
    • "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33
    • "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13

I agree. We cannot share the gospel without living the gospel, and the mark of a Christian is the love of Christ.

Insofar as the Obama administration, you seem to be forgetting that while the gospel of Christ was social it was not immoral. I think this was Y1's point.

While I really cannot think of a moral administration, I also cannot think of one turned more against Christianity than the Obama's, and Clinton's was posed to drive America even further. I have never experienced a government that I would call godly. But we have also never experienced an administration as blatantly evil as the one Christians have endured for the past 8 years. Maybe Trump will do no better. But regardless, Christians have a cause to celebrate that God has removed an evil administration even if it is only a temporary lull.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Jesus was most concerned with their spiritual condition, correct?

If he was why is it not mentioned in the final judgement? I am sure he was not a proponent of "cheap grace" believe only and nothing more. That violates his message to us and makes a lie of James, "faith without works is dead".

 

[Baptist Believer]

Good work show that we re now saved, have NO part in getting us saved!

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

 

[JonC]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

I was in the Army for some time, and stationed among a remote and isolated tribe (the location and exact nature of our mission remains secret to this day) I learned the language. "Yoneese" we called it (although I doubt that it's proper name). Here it seems a different dialect, but I believe our friend is saying "Good works show that we are saved; they have no part in getting us saved."

 

[Yeshua1]

Historically, that is NOT what Baptists believed. The bedrock New Hampshire Confession says:

XI. OF THE Perseverance OF SAINTS.

We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; [2119] that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; [2120] that a special Providence watches over their welfare; [2121] and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. [2122]

Southern Baptists accepted this until the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message which introduced "easy believerism." Hershel Hobbs was the chief proponent of this weakening of the faith. D.L. Moody argued against it. The 1925 Baptist Faith and Message states:

All real believers endure to the end. Their continuance in well-doing is the mark which distinguishes them from mere professors. A special Providence cares for them, and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

This is what my grandfather and mother believed and what I believe.

That is not good works though, as that would us walking as we should as a Christian, and that is due to th Holy Spirit/new nature now dwelling in us! Salvation does NOT include good works to gety saved, but shows up afterwards!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. We cannot share the gospel without living the gospel, and the mark of a Christian is the love of Christ.

Insofar as the Obama administration, you seem to be forgetting that while the gospel of Christ was social it was not immoral. I think this was Y1's point.

While I really cannot think of a moral administration, I also cannot think of one turned more against Christianity than the Obama's, and Clinton's was posed to drive America even further. I have never experienced a government that I would call godly. But we have also never experienced an administration as blatantly evil as the one Christians have endured for the past 8 years. Maybe Trump will do no better. But regardless, Christians have a cause to celebrate that God has removed an evil administration even if it is only a temporary lull.

 

[Yeshua1]

My point was that we cannot have the social Gospel replace, or be shown as equal tot he Gospel message of salvation, as only THAT messae saves a sinner. After saved, then of course do good works supporting saved!

Amd the current president has been most anti Christian ever!

 

[Yeshua1]

If he was why is it not mentioned in the final judgement? I am sure he was not a proponent of "cheap grace" believe only and nothing more. That violates his message to us and makes a lie of James, "faith without works is dead".

Salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, as per the eformation. correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

Good works have no part of saving us, but do show that we now are saved!

 

[Eric B]

The debate operates on the mistaken assumption (on both sides) that the "social Gospel" is Left, and the "Cross" is Right. Really, the Right has its own "social Gospel", for many of its arguments are what else but social. The claim that Obama, (or Clinton, the rest of the liberals, etc.) were "immoral" or "against Christianity" is a social one (whether directly through "moral" policy, or economics, world affairs or religious issues).

The issue is which set of "social" policies are compatible with the Gospel or [being interpreted as] "against" it. People argue that financial social issues are personal and thus should not be legislated by the government, but then the same can be said for some of the so-called "moral" issues. It's just that people then get into this belief or in practice making America, as it were, the center of the Gospel, and so it becomes all about "saving America", and the belief that public morality will being God's curse on the nation if too many people are "sinning" openly. Say what you want about the "unscriptural"-ness of the "liberal social gospel" of "peace and love only"; this one is just as bad. And just as "man-centered" (Simply substituting "nation" for "individual").

I say that none of these leaders really advances the Gospel, because there are so many people in the nation they have to represent, and so they must promise things that sound nice to everyone, at least on their side of the D/R divide. So no matter who gets in, both sides still complain about the same things; either God is being kicked out of the nation, or the religious are taking over and neglecting the poor.
If Reagan, who seems to have been the model recent president for conservatives, didn't bring in an America the Christians could see as "great" again, it will likely be the same under Trump, and that, at best!

 

[Yeshua1]

The debate operates on the mistaken assumption (on both sides) that the "social Gospel" is Left, and the "Cross" is Right. Really, the Right has its own "social Gospel", for many of its arguments are what else but social. The claim that Obama, (or Clinton, the rest of the liberals, etc.) were "immoral" or "against Christianity" is a social one (whether directly through "moral" policy, or economics, world affairs or religious issues).

The issue is which set of "social" policies are compatible with the Gospel or [being interpreted as] "against" it. People argue that financial social issues are personal and thus should not be legislated by the government, but then the same can be said for some of the so-called "moral" issues. It's just that people then get into this belief or in practice making America, as it were, the center of the Gospel, and so it becomes all about "saving America", and the belief that public morality will being God's curse on the nation if too many people are "sinning" openly. Say what you want about the "unscriptural"-ness of the "liberal social gospel" of "peace and love only"; this one is just as bad. And just as "man-centered" (Simply substituting "nation" for "individual").

I say that none of these leaders really advances the Gospel, because there are so many people in the nation they have to represent, and so they must promise things that sound nice to everyone, at least on their side of the D/R divide. So no matter who gets in, both sides still complain about the same things; either God is being kicked out of the nation, or the religious are taking over and neglecting the poor.
If Reagan, who seems to have been the model recent president for conservatives, didn't bring in an America the Christians could see as "great" again, it will likely be the same under Trump, and that, at best!

President Obama had set policies ino lace that marginalized Christian fith in work and in military, whose job seemed to be to get ungodly weddings legalized, and saw Christians as being more a terrorist threat than Isis, as He saw Islam as religion peace could not have any!

 

[just-want-peace]

Obama should NOW have a 100% approval rating!!