Provide us with the correct statistics. But please don't just make them up. OK, if you're not a fan of war why shouldn't the US have spent the money it cost to invade Afghanistan and Iraq on health care for those who need it. By the way, if you're consistent you'll insist that your own family pay your health care costs rather than the government when you retire. Fair enough?
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Obamacare and Death With Dignity
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Provide us with the correct statistics. But please don't just make them up. OK, if you're not a fan of war why shouldn't the US have spent the money it cost to invade Afghanistan and Iraq on health care for those who need it. By the way, if you're consistent you'll insist that your own family pay your health care costs rather than the government when you retire. Fair enough?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
crabtownboy, with the typical leftist mentality, has arrogantly [I think] raised the question: Are you afraid to die?
God is the giver of life and it is my belief that man should cherish thatl life and seek to prolong life as long as reasonably possible. It should not be snuffed out by the state rationing of medical care. If Obamacare passes all medical care will be affected and controlled by the Fascist state. The Holocaust in Nazi Germany will look like child's play. In fact the American Holocaust, the slaughter of the unborn, may well pale in comparison. 1984 will have arrived and the problems caused by the theft of Social Security funds will be solved.
My mother lived to be almost 97 and she cherished and enjoyed life almost to the end. She was never placed on any machine and her doctor had told us that he would not put her through any needless suffering to prolong her life. There came a time at last when I believe she looked forward to death. It did not come just when she thought but God in His own good time took her to the home she longed for.
I am convinced that not one of her eight children will live as long as she did but I could be wrong. We also have our fathers genes. If I could enjoy health and life as she did that would be good. However, the lives of God's children are still in His hands and I am content to leave mine there!
God is the giver of life and it is my belief that man should cherish thatl life and seek to prolong life as long as reasonably possible. It should not be snuffed out by the state rationing of medical care. If Obamacare passes all medical care will be affected and controlled by the Fascist state. The Holocaust in Nazi Germany will look like child's play. In fact the American Holocaust, the slaughter of the unborn, may well pale in comparison. 1984 will have arrived and the problems caused by the theft of Social Security funds will be solved.
My mother lived to be almost 97 and she cherished and enjoyed life almost to the end. She was never placed on any machine and her doctor had told us that he would not put her through any needless suffering to prolong her life. There came a time at last when I believe she looked forward to death. It did not come just when she thought but God in His own good time took her to the home she longed for.
I am convinced that not one of her eight children will live as long as she did but I could be wrong. We also have our fathers genes. If I could enjoy health and life as she did that would be good. However, the lives of God's children are still in His hands and I am content to leave mine there!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
This guy sounds more like Freedom, JustChristian, and Baptist Believer with each post I read!
I am not sure he is an "inginer" though. Most engineers I worked with had ethics, even those who were not Christians.
OK..since you obviously believe the WHO report, let me explain to you why it is flawed. It is flawed because each country is gauged not upon what it actually does, but upon what the WHO perceives as the country's potential. That would be like you and I running a foot race and you beating me by a long shot. After the fact the judges come in and declare me the winner because your potential is so much better than mine and so my efforts count for more than yours. That's a bunch of liberal baloney and not the way to create a fact based report. The report is based upon someone's guess at a country's potential.
You want to talk facts? The US pays more money per capita for health care than any other country in the world. That's a fact. So, you complain about money spent on a war and insinuate that it is stealing money from health care. That simply isn't true. Is money being wasted on wars? Sure. Is money being wasted all over the place? Sure. But that doesn't mean we need to stop wasting money in one spot and waste it on health care instead.
You say our health care system is horrible and we need to spend more money on it to become as good as other country's health systems. Why do we need to spend more than the other country's do? If they can do so well on less money per capita compared to us, why can't we? So, since we want to be like them we should be slashing spending...and I'm all for that.
As for me paying my own health care costs, no problem there. I not planning on social security or medicare/medicaid to be around when I retire.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't know your age but you are correct. I tell my children and any other relatively young people who will listen not to depend on Social Security or Medicare because they will not be there. In fact I am afraid that our country may not be here, certainly not as we have known it.
I have, and I will. It is not your job to pay for my healthcare...nor I for yours.
I'm smart enough to not depend on the failed Ponzi scheme of Social Insecurity. I plan on refusing all medicaid, medicare, and government insurance. I'd rather have good healthcare, thanks.
I cannot believe some are justifying letting the elderly just get kicked to the curb. How tragic. And it is apparent that Just Christian is once again back on the board.
Is a 93 year old woman less valuable to God? Isn't God in control of when people die? Or does He have so say in it.
Your comments show your disregard for human life, people are lss valuable becasue of their age, unborn and old.
Wow! Creating a false either or scenario so as to justify Obamacare is sick, evil, ungodly and disgusting. Just pure evil. Did I say it is pure evil? Because it is clearly purely evil.:BangHead:
windcatcher
New Member
Amazing isn't it! BUT, did you know that most of these which occurred in the recent past HAD and TRUSTED their comprehensive medical insurance.... but exclusions, exceptions, copays, delays in reimbursements for excess out of pocket expenses failed them when they counted on it (excepting this recent contrived economic crisis designed to complete the dissolution of our sovereignty and absorption into the NWO... um.... now called the globalist agend.... you know... a rose by any other name.... still smells).
Well, that may be your ideal..... but if your country chooses to go to war.... then no matter what you prefer... your taxes will be spent as your government determines its desires.... and you may have no choice unless YOU MOVE. As for 'the effectiveness' ..... give us a source, please.
Actually, our country is doing a better job than is reported by the media, in taking care of its 'needy' citizens. We have programs for childrens health coverage for families who can't afford insurance. Our senior citizens with failing health are also 'needy' but, however inadequate some may feel their care is, they have health care programs provided through medicare and medicaid.
For those who complain about this coverage..... well, most of those who are retired now and dependant on these complusory programs, were taxed during their working years when these programs were being developed ...... and saw their options for continuing private insurance being dissolved while the government promised more coverage through these programs...... worked and paid for what they thought was promised..... and are now being threatened that these programs will be reduced or subject to 'rationing' to enable broader medical care to cover all ....including ILLEGAL ALIENS.....people who aren't supposed to be here to begin with.
=====an aside:=====
A real story about government sponsored health care:
A 20yr airman in the military went to the medical facilities (not a hospital) on his airbase for an out-patient procedure: It was laproscopic removal of his gallbladder.... an out patient procedure if all went well. As his family sat just outside the doors, the medical officer proceeded with the operation but inadvertantly nicked the aorta. Now the aorta is the major trunk of arterial blood which pumps oxygen to the body.... in descending order of need... to the heart and head, upper limbs and thorax, to the kidneys and adrenals and as it descends, it bifricates to serve each leg. By the time the surgical staff realized what had happened and sent out an urgent and loudly pronouced call for blood..... the man's legs were already dying. Now, though this happened on an airforce base... just imagine the helicopters and planes present.... as well as emergency transport vehicles.... IT TOOK 5-6 HOURS before transporting by air to a hospital to complete the man's care. When he woke up...... his family consoled him with 'but you're alive' when the gallbladder removed resulted in the double amputation of his legs to save his life. (His legs died without getting oxygenated blood.) It is a rare thing to successfully sue the government.... but THIS WAS GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE. It was done in, no doubt, a low cost, minimally supplied medical facility, possibly with staff in various levels of experience and training, but lacking in some areas of assessment, and emergency response. Had this occurred within the private sector of health care.... such as through a third party payee... insured either by private or medicare/medicaid... the many standards of care which lapsed during this medical procedure would have subjected the staff and the facility to legal suits.... and resulted in improvements in training, assessments, emergency response and readiness... and the very chance of being at risk for a law suit might have placed risk assessment at the forefront of medical care delivery and planning and might have prevented the multiple mistakes made in this case.
=====return to subject====
As for foreign aid:
Regarding sending our money to other countries to help them with their health care....... THIS IS A JOKE. Many of the third world countries who receive our aid.... have such budgetary problems and corruption within their own government that if the aid gets to the people who really need it... not just those privileged to already have care.... then it is often small percentage.
If one is going to give to help others in foreign countries.... either for food, or medical care, or comfort needs for the poor or for children.... find a church based ministry with credible accounting procedures and foreign missionary activity... or a reputable charity and donate through them.... and then follow them regarding how they safe guard the distribution of supplies to the people. In some cases, and this cannot always be avoided... supplies are hi-jacked or stolen. Missionaries acquainted with these problems in their areas, while challenged, are often adapting to conditions, may have a low profile of attention to themselves and their provisions and often exercise great care, even if inconvenienced, to protect and provide supplies to those for whom it is intended.
Some of the larger charitable agencies.... with varying degrees of credibility..... like Red Cross and WHO, frequently have such a high profile that, while in some cases are provided guards and protection... in other cases stand out like a beacon to those who would sabotage, steal, or destroy supplies before they reach and serve the people for whom they were intended.
Regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ:
He gave us (the church) the charge and the great commission to take the gospel into all the world. However we minister to the needs of the poor, the hungry, the children, the sick and dying, those in prisons, the weak, and those in bondage to sin.... and any others which I might have missed..... He gave the charge to the church: He did not give it to us to delegate to others. Not all churches are large enough to respond to all areas of need... but all churches are large enough to be used where they are if the body within is willing to be used and controled by God. The authority God has given the church is his command and our obediance. We have no right to delegate his commission to any other..... nor can any other be a substitute. If the church is not clean and pure enough to be just in what it does for Christ Jesus..... how can we expect unwashed unredeemed people and organizations (to take what God has given us to share), and distribute it fairly to others with out corruption, control, and power?
I like what I saw on some thread or read somewhere: We are free because God made us that way. We have rights because God gave us the right to choose for ourselves. While our rights are good.... not all that is good is a right: Many of the services which we now depend on the national government to provide, should be provided at the local or state level and not funded by the federal government. Just because something is good for a people doesn't make it a 'right'. Health care is good, but choices regarding how we take care of our bodies and what health care we want is our right.
War vs Health Care? Apples and Potatoes? You really think WE have a choice regarding either?
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windcatcher
New Member
It amazes me......
The libbies on this board will admit or at least sling the slogan that 'there's not enough money for health care w/o a national program' and contend that there's not enough money for the medicare/medicaid program....... or social security?
Yet... aren't these GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS for which we've already been being taxed.... with promised outcomes?
What makes YOU think that NATIONAL HEALTH CARE will be an improvement over former promises?
Its not just the infirm and elderly...... and the defective children which may be dispatched prematurely by inadequate medical monitoring and care....... just think what may happen to yourself ....... an accident which disables you from working, or a stroke, or a malady such as MS, or ALS, .........and, because you are no longer a working, taxpaying, productive 'resource' you and your health care becomes subject to rationing, low priorities and delays or refusals to treat? What's good for the aged or the young and weak may also visit you in your lifetime under these new proposed values and ethics regarding life.
This also confirms what's been said in the past regarding abortion: The devaluing of the importance of a child's life developing in the womb will snowball into the very mentality which devalues life from the value God gave us and places it on the level of ethics and attitudes made up by fallen man in his unbelief..... making man a disposable resource subject to the values perceived by others and not God.
The libbies on this board will admit or at least sling the slogan that 'there's not enough money for health care w/o a national program' and contend that there's not enough money for the medicare/medicaid program....... or social security?
Yet... aren't these GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS for which we've already been being taxed.... with promised outcomes?
What makes YOU think that NATIONAL HEALTH CARE will be an improvement over former promises?
Its not just the infirm and elderly...... and the defective children which may be dispatched prematurely by inadequate medical monitoring and care....... just think what may happen to yourself ....... an accident which disables you from working, or a stroke, or a malady such as MS, or ALS, .........and, because you are no longer a working, taxpaying, productive 'resource' you and your health care becomes subject to rationing, low priorities and delays or refusals to treat? What's good for the aged or the young and weak may also visit you in your lifetime under these new proposed values and ethics regarding life.
This also confirms what's been said in the past regarding abortion: The devaluing of the importance of a child's life developing in the womb will snowball into the very mentality which devalues life from the value God gave us and places it on the level of ethics and attitudes made up by fallen man in his unbelief..... making man a disposable resource subject to the values perceived by others and not God.
Why do you feel the need to incessantly insult other people on this forum? Is that the way you think a Christian should treat other people? Anyone reading this would find it awfully difficult to believe that it is a forum for Christians.
When you realize you are wrong, start calling names and labeling people. You can call these ideas leftist, but they come, not for political philosophy, but from my trust in God's ability to care for us if we only follow his will.
And you have yet to give a personal answer. Are you afraid to die?
I believe everyone loves life. You answer avoids the answer to the question and is a smoke screen. Your extremest answer shows a lot of insecurity. Trust God my friend.
As an aside, I should not be, but am continually amazed at how fearful so many Americans are and how they put their trust, not in God, but in a powerful military. A young woman who lived through the war in Serbia asked me one time, "What is wrong with Americans? We lived through a war. That was much worse than 9-11. Once it was over we got on with our lives and left the fears behind."
A good long life and similar to my mother's life and death.
None of us know the place or time. But we should always be ready. It is not death that I fear, but some of the processes of getting there. I trust God to care for me after my physical body dies ... so there is nothing to fear in death.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Now you know how those who read your posts feel!:laugh:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
crabtownboy
If you read my post #40 you will see that I responded to all your questions so don't come up with this putrid crab that I didn't!
Also please get your quotes correct [Post 53]. Don't attribute to me something you said.
If you read my post #40 you will see that I responded to all your questions so don't come up with this putrid crab that I didn't!
Also please get your quotes correct [Post 53]. Don't attribute to me something you said.
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So you are using other people's money through medicare.
By your own admission you are using other people's money through Medicare and if your medical bills are larger than your premiums you are using other people's money through the Medi-gap insurance you have.
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Avoiding the question of being afraid of death once again.
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Since you, by your own admission, are using other people's money for your health care, why are you so against a program that allows the uninsured to have insurance? Do you dislike your fellow men and women and children so much you want them to have no insurance?
Please no attempted insults, just be rational please.
So you are using other people's money through medicare.
By your own admission you are using other people's money through Medicare and if your medical bills are larger than your premiums you are using other people's money through the Medi-gap insurance you have.
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Avoiding the question of being afraid of death once again.
[/QUOTE]
Since you, by your own admission, are using other people's money for your health care, why are you so against a program that allows the uninsured to have insurance? Do you dislike your fellow men and women and children so much you want them to have no insurance?
Please no attempted insults, just be rational please.
The amount of money paid in by an individual is quickly used up, probably within the first three to four years. Same with Medicare. So if anyone has been collecting either SS or Medicare over that "catch-up' period of time, then yes, they are using other people's money.
Social Security and Medicare are in reality a Ponzi scheme. You need more and more money coming in to keep up with what is going out. When Social Security Act was passed Congress and the President thought there would be an every expanding population and economy, so there would be no problem financially. Also, most people died before age 65 in the 1930's. SS was never meant to be a retirement system for the majority of Americans. I am not sure what age now would equal 65 back then ... perhaps 75. So, should the age when you can receive SS be raised to 75? Also through the years Congress has added to the benefits that were not intended by the original bill and have added groups that were not eligible in the original bill. Is this good or bad? It depends on your political philosophy. Surely you are aware of this. Right?
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You go ahead and express your love by murdering your mother. We Christians will obey the Scriptures and requite our parents by caring for them in their old age.
This is quite a sanctimonious reply.
I am curious, have you ever had to try to care for a person who is in the late stages of Alzheimer's Disease, ALS, Cancer, Parkinson's Disease or a whole host of other diseases. If you have not I'd not be so quick to condemn others. If you have you and have seen it to the end, then you are much stronger physically, emotionally and mentally than many Christian I have know who have faced these terrible situations.
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