Objections answered

[The Biblicist]

Some have accused me of simply repeating posts consisting of the same material in regard to John 6:37-65 when in fact those posts contained new material that dealt directly with their objections and exposed why their objections were false. Such is the case with the following post on the definition of coming to Christ:

The words "cometh to me" in John 6 means "come in faith" or "partaking by faith" where in the act of the will occurs. This is made abundantly clear in John 6:35-36 and here are the indisputable facts:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

1. "hunger"....thirst" are parallel concepts that EQUALLY convey satisfaction in partaking of Christ as "the bread of life." These words assume Christ as "the bread of life" has been PARTAKEN and the act of partaking is conveyed by two EQUALLY parallel concepts "cometh to me......believeth on me." They are placed in a structure of EQUAL PARALLELLISM with "hunger......thirst." Note there is no liquid involved here and so quenching thirst is equal to quenching hunger in regard to Christ as "bread."


2. Eating this bread for eternal life is placed in exact parallel with believing or partaking by faith in Christ - vv. 35-36; 47-48

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.


3. The words "cometh to me" cannot possibly refer phsical arrival to the physical presence of Christ as this would deny anyone living past the cross could "come to Christ"! However, ARminians constantly use this phrase when inviting sinners to believe - "come to Jesus" or "come to the cross" meaning BELEIVE ON HIM or CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Every Arminian Evangelist uses these phrases this way today.


28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rom. 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


4. Matthew 11:28 uses the word "come" in the very same sense as Jesus uses it in John 6. Here also. rest from the burden of sin is eliminated by simply coming to Christ. Coming PARTAKES of the "rest" found in Christ and Paul plainly says "by faith we have peace with God " - Rom. 5:1 - rather than PHYSICAL ARRIVAL. If we interpret "coming to me" as "SPIRITUAL ARRIVAL" there can be no such thing apart from faith as it is impossible for anyone that "cometh" to God WITHOUT FAITH - Heb. 11:6.

CONCLUSION: so anyway you define "cometh to me" must INCLUDE the idea of "coming to Christ in/by faith" wherein is the exercise of the will.

APPLICATION: Hence, "come to me" in John 6:44 means "come to me in/by faith". Thus "draw" is God's enablement to exercise the will to come to Christ in faith - meaning - faith is the work of God not of men, as "no man can come to me" in faith. That is precisely how Christ applied verse 44 to those in verse 64. They were still without faith because God had not enabled them or "given" it to them - v. 65. This was not a new condition, but Christ knew they were without faith "FROM THE BEGINNING" when they professed to be followers of Christ.

Remember, the context is NOT about the relationship between the believer and the gospel or gospel ministry. The context is about the work that no man can do but God and thus itis about God's work in making sure "ALL" He gives to Christ do in fact come to Christ and NONE of that "ALL" be lost. John 6:37-39 reveals the PURPOSED WILL of God to obtain that end whereas John 6:44-45 reveals the POWER of God to obtain that end.

 

[The Biblicist]

Effectual Faith

Some have argued that John 6:37 should be understood to mean "All who come to me the Father SHALL give to me" even though its says the very reverse.

They reason this way because they believe giving by the Father is based upon prescience or God's knowledge that they will come to Christ.

However, not only does the text deny their cause and effect order based on prescience but specifically bases this cause "giveth" and effect "shall come" order on God's will of Purpose accordiing to election.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. The Father's will is the basis for this cause and effect relationship between giving and coming.

2. The Father's will concerning this BEFORE THE INCARNATION as Christ says "I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN" to accomplish this specific aspect of the Father's will.

3. The only will of purpose by the Father PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION in regard "to salvation" is "God's purpose according to election" (Rom. 9:11; 1 Thes. 2:13; Eph.1:4; 2 Tim. 1:7).

4. The accomplishment of this will of purpose in regard to those coming is obtained by Christ's obedience to this will NOT BY OUR OBEDIENCE.

5. This will of purpose is EFFECTUALLY as "ALL" given are "ALL" that come and NONE ARE LOST - v. 39 - that is the meaning of EFFECTUAL in the strictest sense and the only will of purpose by the Father that is EFFECTUAL in regard to coming to Christ for salvation is God's purpose of election.

6. It is impossible for anyone to GIVE anything to anyone without first CHOOSING to give it. The only "will" of purpose that is effectual where 100% given come and NONE are lost in regard to being given to the Son for salvation is God's purpose of election as in Romans 8:32 it is the "elect" that are identified as the "whom" that "according to God's Purpose" (v.28) is effectually foreknown to predestation to calling to justification to glorification so that Paul can triumphantly ask "if God be for US then who can be against US - the elect.

The absolute proof that this "will" of the Father and "coming" is in regard to personal individual salvation is John 17:2 where the final product is "eternal life" but only to "as many as thou hast GIVEST him". Hence, the "Father's will" and "giving" is directly stated as the cause and "cometh" and "eternal life" as the effects.

 

[The Biblicist]

Arminians and dispensationalists are confused concerning the meaning of "eternal life." It can properly be understood in its Biblical sense by simply looking at the contrasting opposite - "spiritual death."

Spiritual death is being "alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18 due to our tresspasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) so that we are separated from the life of God due to sin (Isa. 59:2).

Hence, spiritual life is removing that separation and thus being brought into SPIRITUAL UNION with God. Spiritual UNION and "eternal life" are one and the same. Where there is no spiritual union with God there is only spiritual death.

Arminians do not understand this because if they did they would never argue that being "given" by the Father is being placed in Spiritual union with Chirst (God) as that would require eternal life occurs BEFORE coming to Christ occurs as coming is FUTURE TENSE from being given "shall" come - Jn. 6:37.

Dispensationalists do not understand this or they would never deny pre-cross saints where without the permenant indwelling of the Spirit of God because "spiritual" union with God is impossible apart "union" with the Spriit of God. Thus Romans 8:8-9 is a universal truth for all of God's saints in all ages or else they are still in spiriual death. Their confusion is due to their misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and day of Pentecost.

 

[The Biblicist]

Some have argued that John 6:37 should be understood to mean "All who come to me the Father SHALL give to me" even though its says the very reverse.

They reason this way because they believe giving by the Father is based upon prescience or God's knowledge that they will come to Christ.

However, not only does the text deny their cause and effect order based on prescience but specifically bases this cause "giveth" and effect "shall come" order on God's will of Purpose accordiing to election.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. The Father's will is the basis for this cause and effect relationship between giving and coming.

2. The Father's will concerning this BEFORE THE INCARNATION as Christ says "I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN" to accomplish this specific aspect of the Father's will.

3. The only will of purpose by the Father PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION in regard "to salvation" is "God's purpose according to election" (Rom. 9:11; 1 Thes. 2:13; Eph.1:4; 2 Tim. 1:7).

4. The accomplishment of this will of purpose in regard to those coming is obtained by Christ's obedience to this will NOT BY OUR OBEDIENCE.

5. This will of purpose is EFFECTUALLY as "ALL" given are "ALL" that come and NONE ARE LOST - v. 39 - that is the meaning of EFFECTUAL in the strictest sense and the only will of purpose by the Father that is EFFECTUAL in regard to coming to Christ for salvation is God's purpose of election.

6. It is impossible for anyone to GIVE anything to anyone without first CHOOSING to give it. The only "will" of purpose that is effectual where 100% given come and NONE are lost in regard to being given to the Son for salvation is God's purpose of election as in Romans 8:32 it is the "elect" that are identified as the "whom" that "according to God's Purpose" (v.28) is effectually foreknown to predestation to calling to justification to glorification so that Paul can triumphantly ask "if God be for US then who can be against US - the elect.

The absolute proof that this "will" of the Father and "coming" is in regard to personal individual salvation is John 17:2 where the final product is "eternal life" but only to "as many as thou hast GIVEST him". Hence, the "Father's will" and "giving" is directly stated as the cause and "cometh" and "eternal life" as the effects.

The Arminian does not consider why giving by the Father ALWAYS results in EFFECTUAL FAITH in Christ. It is EFFECTUAL because:

1. "ALL" that come ALWAYS equal "ALL" that were given and that is precisely why "NOTHING" given is ever lost.

2. ALL that come is ALWAYS the consequence of being first given as coming is FUTURE TENSE ("shall" come) to giving.

3. ALL that are given are due to the Father's will PRIOR TO them coming as that will existed previous to Christ coming down from heaven.

Again, the Arminian does not consider why giving by the Father ALWAYS resutls in EFFECTUAL FAITH in Christ. His will to give precedes giving and givng precedes coming. However, it is EFFECTUAL 100% in "ALL" given because all the given are EFFECTUALLY drawn by the Father which explains the power that makes it 100% effectual in all that are given (Jn. 6:44-45):


Here in verse 44 the POWER of God is what is the effectual cause for all who come to Christ in faith. Hence, those eternally chosen to EFFECTUALLY come to Christ in verses 37-39 come due to the Father's POWER (draw) resulting in choice/believing/coming to Christ. Here is a direct statement that choosing/coming/believing is due to God's POWER not to man's own ability.

Furthermore, Drawing is effectual as "THEY shall ALL" (same "all" in verses 37-39) be taught/drawn "of God." NONE of "THEY" shall fail to be taught/drawn by God.

Furthemore, Jesus defines "draw" to mean "taught" by the immediate scripture quotation taken from the PLURAL "prophets" where the reference is Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 or the "ALL" of the New Covenant people of God. In both of these scriptures the "prophets" use the FUTURE TENSE "shall" when applying what is defined by the writer of Hebews as the "NEW" covenant in regard to Israel (Heb. 8; Rom. 11:25-28) but is PRESENTLY being applied to ALL THE ELECT as individuals (Heb. 10:10-17) or "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

Significantly the teaching referred to by Isaiah does not come from men as Jeremiah specifically states "34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Furthermore the realm of this teaching activity is INTERNAL and the creative act of God by divine revelation of knowledge:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the "ALL" of the Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation are the NEW COVENANT ELECT PEOPLE consisting of all elect individuals and future Isael and "THEY shall be ALL taught"/drawn by God.

Finally, Christ defines what it means to be "taught/draw" in verse 45b. Both words "heard" and "learned" have direct and immediate reference to "taught" in the Isaiah/Jermiah quotation in verse 45a. "ALL" shall be taught of God because Christ defiines "taught" to include "EVERY MAN" (translates same Greek term as "all") and thus the SAME "ALL" in the Isaiah quotation "have" (aorist tense completed action) describing both descriptive nouns (Heard, learned) showing identical or simeltaneous action proving that hearing and learning are insepabable completed actions inclusive of "taught." It is impossible to be taught without BOTH actions and therefore there is no such thing as a person who has been "taught" but has not "learned" or who has been "taught" but has not heard. Both "taught" and "heard" are defined by the Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation to be INTERNAL revelation by God NOT IMPARTED BY MEN.

CONCLUSION:

1. Drawing is the necessary condition to coming/beleiving/willing.

2. Draw equals taught

3. Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation denies teaching is performed by men but is a supernatural internal creative revelation by God "write my law upon their hearts" - "they shall no more teach every man his neighbor"

4. Taught equals both INTERNALIZED "heard" and "learned" as described by prophets which excludes the work of men.

5. Verses 37-39 ETERNAL PURPOSE/WILL OF ELECTION to coming to EFEECUAL and ETERNAL salvation so that NONE are lost. Thus giving is sole and thus necessary condition provided for coming.

6.Verses 44-45 OMINPOTENT power ("draw") as sole condition provided and thus necessary to coming whereby "ALL" are "taught/draw" of God which excludes all men from this internal creative revelatory work whereby God's law is written on their heart.

7. Hence, the choice of scripture quotations used by Christ to define draw in verse 45a EXPLICITLY deny man is involved in this teaching as it involves writing the law upon the heart. The scripture quotations chosen by Christ demand it is effectuall for "ALL" who are taught as it is the "ALL" of the New Covenant people - the elect.

 

[Skandelon]

The words "cometh to me" cannot possibly refer phsical arrival to the physical presence of Christ as this would deny anyone living past the cross could "come to Christ"!

Actually is would deny anyone living past the cross could come to Christ in the flesh like the 12 did, who were specifically referenced in John 6, " 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve."

What is unique about the 12? They were Jews GIVEN to CHRIST by the Father to be his divinely appointed messengers of the GOSPEL, which isn't sent to all the world UNTIL AFTER he is lifted up and the gospel is the means that Jesus DRAWS ALL MEN TO HIMSELF...first to the Jew and then the Gentile.

 

[kyredneck]

...1. "hunger"....thirst" are parallel concepts that EQUALLY convey satisfaction in partaking of Christ as "the bread of life."

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6

'They that hunger and thirst' are alive already. This is why they're deemed to be fortunate; the Spirit has wrought within them already.

2. Eating this bread for eternal life is placed in exact parallel with believing or partaking by faith in Christ - vv. 35-36; 47-48

Actually the passage says:

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Also here:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

And here:

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

These are alive already BEFORE coming, BEFORE eating, BEFORE believing.

To which the earlier discourse supports:

.....If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God....If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God.....It behoveth you to be born from above… he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought; Jn 3:3,5,7,21 YLT

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom, or come to Christ (the two are synonymous in this discourse), one must FIRST be born from above.

God has already wrought within those that come to Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

1. Drawing is the necessary condition to coming/beleiving/willing.

Agreed.

2. Draw equals taught

Agreed! (it does not equal effectually made to be willing to believe and repent)

3. Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation denies teaching is performed by men but is a supernatural internal creative revelation by God "write my law upon their hearts" - "they shall no more teach every man his neighbor"

God uses human means throughout scripture, so just because a person is used to teach something doesn't mean God doesn't get the credit, and just because God is said to have done the teaching doesn't mean he didn't use a normative means. (the illus of the car, boat and helicopter sent to rescue man from flood comes to mind)

4. Taught equals both INTERNALIZED "heard" and "learned" as described by prophets which excludes the work of men.

Do you mean that "taught" equals "believed?" That "hearing it" equals "being in agreement with it?"

Some passages speak of those who 'listen' or 'hear' as being those who 'accept' it because it presumes acceptance, not because it is teaching they MUST accept it. i.e. Acts 28:28

 

[convicted1]

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6

'They that hunger and thirst' are alive already. This is why they're deemed to be fortunate; the Spirit has wrought within them already.



Actually the passage says:

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Also here:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

And here:

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

These are alive already BEFORE coming, BEFORE eating, BEFORE believing.

To which the earlier discourse supports:

.....If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God....If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God.....It behoveth you to be born from above… he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought; Jn 3:3,5,7,21 YLT

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom, or come to Christ (the two are synonymous in this discourse), one must FIRST be born from above.

God has already wrought within those that come to Christ.

:jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

[The Biblicist]

The "substance" and "hope" of faith

¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Heb. 11:1

The kind of faith that one must have to come to God (v. 6) which is the kind that pleases God and is spoken of in Hebrews 11:7-41 cannot exist apart from "substance" as faith "IS" the substance of your "hope."

We all agree that the gospel provides the substance of salvation hope. We all agree that the gospel must be preached and that God uses human instrumentality in preaching the gospel. We all agree that mere preaching of the gospel does not save everyone who "hears" it with the physical ear.

Hence, we all agree that some kind of transaction must occur on the inside of the heart within a human being that distinguishes them who do not embrace the gospel as their hope.

The Arminian says this difference is "willingness" to receive the gospel and the Calvinist agrees that there must be "willingness" to receive the gospel so we both agree.

What we disagree about is what is the cause behind the willingness in some versus unwillingness in others. They are both equally sinners. They are both equally spiritually dead in sin. They both equally hear the same gospel with the same EXTERNAL ears but one repents and believes while the other does not.

We believe it is the difference between INTERNAL and EXTERNAL revelation. The external we call the "general call" illustrated in the first invitation sent out for guests in the wedding parable which resulted in NO PROPERLY DRESSED guests. The internal call we call the "effectual call" is illustrated in the second invitation sent out where they were commanded to "compel" them to come in which resulted in obtaining ALL properly dressed guests.

Furthmore, the INTERNAL revelation occurs only by an act of CREATION comparable to the creation of light in Genesis 1:3 wherein no human cooperation or involvement occurs:


2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This kind of gospel power comes only to the elect and that is precisely how they can know they are the elect of God:

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The "substance" of our hope is communicated to the elect by the creative and supernatural powr of God and is given to us "to give light of knowledge". Hence, faith is not the product of men but must be given by God (Eph. 2:8) as it is a creative work of God (Eph. 2:10) performed INTERNALLY by God and then "kept by the power of God" and that internal transformation by God is what gives "assurance" that a person is the elect of God (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

 

[The Biblicist]

Actually is would deny anyone living past the cross could come to Christ in the flesh like the 12 did, who were specifically referenced in John 6, " 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve."

What is unique about the 12? They were Jews GIVEN to CHRIST by the Father to be his divinely appointed messengers of the GOSPEL, which isn't sent to all the world UNTIL AFTER he is lifted up and the gospel is the means that Jesus DRAWS ALL MEN TO HIMSELF...first to the Jew and then the Gentile.

There are several problems with your theory.

One problem with your response is that there were more than 12 disciples following him since the baptism of John or other wise none would be qualified to fill the vacant office of Judas (Acts 1:21-22).

Another problem is you can't make "come" physical arrival merely before the Cross as many did "come" to Christ after the cross by phsical arrival.

Moreover, you cannot spiritualize it either as you do by saying "in the flesh" as that would deny any prior to the cross were "in the Spirit" (Please look at post#3 in this same thread).

Finally, your whole theory breaks down because John 17:2 does not define "giveth" in connection with the apostolic office but with personal individual eternal life as verse 3 always proves. Election to apostolic office is not election to "eternal life." However, in direct contrast in John 6:35-39 giving PRECEDES coming to Christ (future tense "shall" come) and is in direct relationship with receiving "eternal life" (vv. 35,40). Hence, this context or the subjects of giving and coming cannot be restricted to the apostolic office or the nation of Israel but must be applied to INDIVIDUAL SALVATION.

 

[The Biblicist]

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6

'They that hunger and thirst' are alive already. This is why they're deemed to be fortunate; the Spirit has wrought within them already.



Actually the passage says:

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Also here:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

And here:

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

These are alive already BEFORE coming, BEFORE eating, BEFORE believing.

To which the earlier discourse supports:

.....If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God....If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God.....It behoveth you to be born from above… he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought; Jn 3:3,5,7,21 YLT

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom, or come to Christ (the two are synonymous in this discourse), one must FIRST be born from above.

God has already wrought within those that come to Christ.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

God uses human means throughout scripture

Here is the crux of the problem. This context is not speaking about EXTERNAL means used by God because EXTERNAL means cannot perform INTERNAL changes. That is why the scriptures quoted by Christ give 100% focus on only what God does and DENIES that it is teaching by men (Jer. 31:34).

Here is the issue that divides us. John 6:44 is talking about something man cannot do that only God can do. John 6:45a is talking about something only God can do and these "propehts" in context specifically EXCLUDE human means from this aspect of salvation as this aspect is INTERNAL. The INTERNAL requires a supernatural CREATIVE work that only God can do - 2 Cor. 4:6 that the power may be of God and not of men (2 Cor. 4:7). Human instrumentality is totally excluded from this aspect of salvation.

 

[Skandelon]

There are several problems with your theory.

One problem with your response is that there were more than 12 disciples following him since the baptism of John or other wise none would be qualified to fill the vacant office of Judas (Acts 1:21-22).

That's beside the point, as Jesus actually references the twelve in the very passage we are discussing proving my point that he is addressing the ACTUAL context of those being granted to COME TO HIM while here in the flesh, in light of the rest who are being hardened/blinded from seeing Him as the Christ. They had to be blinded, otherwise they wouldn't have killed him. God had only granted a remnant to come to Christ while on earth, the REST were hardened. This is explain countless times throughout scripture.

Another problem is you can't make "come" physical arrival merely before the Cross as many did "come" to Christ after the cross by phsical arrival.

I'm not following you on this one. After Christ was raised up is when the gospel was sent by means of the 12 to draw all men to himself, so why wouldn't many come after the cross?

Moreover, you cannot spiritualize it either as you do by saying "in the flesh" as that would deny any prior to the cross were "in the Spirit" (Please look at post#3 in this same thread).

Again, not following you on this point??? When I speak of 'in the flesh' I'm talking about those physically being there with the Messiah while he was in flesh and blood....as were the 12. This privilege was only granted to a preselected few from Israel, and the rest were blinded.

Finally, your whole theory breaks down because John 17:2 does not define "giveth" in connection with the apostolic office but with personal individual eternal life

Its not an either/or issue...but a both/and. Those given for this nobel task were granted eternal life, just as those who believe their message are as well. The point is that 'those given to Christ' is in reference to THEM specifically, while OTHERS are included later in the prayer as those 'who believe in their message.'

Election to apostolic office is not election to "eternal life."

Huh? You don't believe the apostles are granted eternal life? Why not?

However, in direct contrast in John 6:35-39 giving PRECEDES coming to Christ (future tense "shall" come) and is in direct relationship with receiving "eternal life" (vv. 35,40). Hence, this context or the subjects of giving and coming cannot be restricted to the apostolic office or the nation of Israel but must be applied to INDIVIDUAL SALVATION.

This is a common mistake of modern Christianity. We tend to separate the call to serve from the call to salvation. (accepting Christ as Lord or as Savior). Scripture, in my view, doesn't make this distinction. The call to be a Disciple of Christ is a call to salvation and you don't have one without the other. You don't accept Him as savior without accepting Him as Lord.

Your argument attempts to separate these men's call to be Christ's disciple from their call to be saved, but the bible never makes such a distinction. To call a man to follow IS the call to salvation.

 

[Skandelon]

Here is the crux of the problem. This context is not speaking about EXTERNAL means used by God because EXTERNAL means cannot perform INTERNAL changes.

I respectfully disagree. Did the EXTERNAL experience of spending three days in the belly of a fish change the INTERNAL will of Jonah? External means affect how we think and feel about many things. Faith comes by hearing, according to Paul. Hearing the gospel is an external means, but it can have an internal impact.

That is why the scriptures quoted by Christ give 100% focus on only what God does and DENIES that it is teaching by men (Jer. 31:34).

If God inspires and sends a messenger to preach HIS MESSAGE, would you call that 'teaching by men' or 'teaching by God?' You seem to think God's use of normative means (i.e. teaching through man) removes God's ownership or working in and through those means.

Means of God that use humans are still of God and are credited to God, otherwise can you even call scripture itself something that God does?

 

[Winman]

I respectfully disagree. Did the EXTERNAL experience of spending three days in the belly of a fish change the INTERNAL will of Jonah? External means affect how we think and feel about many things. Faith comes by hearing, according to Paul. Hearing the gospel is an external means, but it can have an internal impact.

If God inspires and sends a messenger to preach HIS MESSAGE, would you call that 'teaching by men' or 'teaching by God?' You seem to think God's use of normative means (i.e. teaching through man) removes God's ownership or working in and through those means.

Means of God that use humans are still of God and are credited to God, otherwise can you even call scripture itself something that God does?

Exactly, God uses men to preach and bring folks to faith.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Peter said that God made the choice that the Gentiles by his mouth (Peter's) would hear the gospel and believe.

Does it say they had to be regenerated to believe? NO, they were enabled to believe by the knowledge given them by Peter. In fact, it was AFTER they believed that they were given the Holy Spirit, and no man is regenerated until he receives the Spirit (Rom 8:9,10).

 

[The Biblicist]

That's beside the point, as Jesus actually references the twelve in the very passage we are discussing proving my point that he is addressing the ACTUAL context of those being granted to COME TO HIM while here in the flesh, in light of the rest who are being hardened/blinded from seeing Him as the Christ. They had to be blinded, otherwise they wouldn't have killed him. God had only granted a remnant to come to Christ while on earth, the REST were hardened. This is explain countless times throughout scripture.

Don't confuse apples with oranges. Several different topics are discussed in every one of these chapters (13-17). Just because election to apostolic office is mentioned in the same chapter as election to eternal life does not mean you have any exegetical basis to confuse them. Your interpreation is precisely the same approach used by those who repudiate OSAS as they they make election to apostolic office to be election to salvation and then point to the "son of perdition" who fell from that chosen office to prove elect people can be lost. Election to apostolic office is not synonmous with election to eternal life "as many as thou hast given" (Jn. 17:2-3). Neither is election to national privilege the same as election to apostolic office or salvation. Only by failing to intentionally distinguish between things that differ can your position be defended.

I'm not following you on this one. After Christ was raised up is when the gospel was sent by means of the 12 to draw all men to himself, so why wouldn't many come after the cross?

We were debating the meaning of "cometh" in John 6! It is contextually defined to mean "believe on me" (Jn. 6:35-36). People came to Christ in faith before, during and after his earthly ministry (Acts 10:43; Mt. 11:30; Acts 4:12). Time and the cross has absolutely no effect upon the meaning of that term.

Again, not following you on this point??? When I speak of 'in the flesh' I'm talking about those physically being there with the Messiah while he was in flesh and blood....as were the 12. This privilege was only granted to a preselected few from Israel, and the rest were blinded.

That is the very meaning of election and that is true in EVERY GENERATION before and after Christ's earthly ministry:

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Its not an either/or issue...but a both/and. Those given for this nobel task were granted eternal life, just as those who believe their message are as well. The point is that 'those given to Christ' is in reference to THEM specifically, while OTHERS are included later in the prayer as those 'who believe in their message.'

Your line of reasoning is simply ridiculous! It is an "either/or issue" as you attempt to cover your false argument by making the point that "others are included later in the prayer" but they are not apostles are they???????? You fully realize your argument is false or you would not have tacked on that last line to cover the holes in your reasoning. Those in verse 20 are chosen to eternal life but not chosen to apostleship showing they are not "both/and" but MAY BE "either/or." There is no possible way you can restrict John 17:2 to merely the apostles out of "all flesh" because eternal life was given to MANY MANY more than the apostles during Christ's ministry on earth. There was over 500 "BRETHREN" who witnessed his resurrection and 120 habitually assembly from his resurrection (among whom others were considered for apostleship) to Pentecost. Your argument falls apart! The gospel was preached by both John the Baptist and Jesus and many were saved in addition to the 12. Surely you are able to see this??

Huh? You don't believe the apostles are granted eternal life? Why not?

This is a very foolish response/argument and you fully well know it so why play such a foolish game? You are intentionally trying to confuse the readers in this forum by refusing to distinguish between election to national privilege, election to offices and election to salvation when none are the same even though and Judas proves my point. He was elected to apostolic office but NEVER had eternal life but Jesus knew from the beginning when he chose him to the office of apostle that he was a demon and unbeliever (Jn. 6:64-65; 70 "IS a devil).

This is a common mistake of modern Christianity. We tend to separate the call to serve from the call to salvation. (accepting Christ as Lord or as Savior). Scripture, in my view, doesn't make this distinction. The call to be a Disciple of Christ is a call to salvation and you don't have one without the other. You don't accept Him as savior without accepting Him as Lord.

Your argument attempts to separate these men's call to be Christ's disciple from their call to be saved, but the bible never makes such a distinction. To call a man to follow IS the call to salvation.

Pleeeeease do I have to really respond to such a ridiculous argument???? Even a child in Sunday School understands that one must be FIRST born again BEFORE they are qualified to be baptized into church membership much less be called and qualfied to fill the office of Pastor or deacon. Salvation is a completed act that is required BEFORE church membership or filling of any office and to suggest as you do they cannot be distinguished or should not be distinguished is so absurd that I am surprised you even claim to be a Baptist. The apostles were "disciples" BEFORE he chose them to be apostles (Lk. 6:12-15) and so your intepretation is hopeless.

 

[The Biblicist]

I respectfully disagree. Did the EXTERNAL experience of spending three days in the belly of a fish change the INTERNAL will of Jonah? External means affect how we think and feel about many things. Faith comes by hearing, according to Paul. Hearing the gospel is an external means, but it can have an internal impact.

Your problem is that not only the very text (Jn. 6:44) speaks of man's total inability as the basis for the necessity of the Father's drawing but then is followed by Jesus referencing PLURAL "prophets" (Isa 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34) where this work of the Father is completely INTERNAL and without human means:

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We have this very teaching of the Father illustrated by Christ in the case of Peter in Matthew 16:16-17 where Christ explicitly denies human involvement in ("flesh and blood hath not revealed this") but only what the Father can impart INTERNALLY.

Jonah was a save man already and it is only God, and God alone who can work WITHIN saved persons to "BOTH WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13).

Romans 10:17 uses the Greek word "rhema" or WORD OF COMMAND which is fully explained in 2 Cor. 4:6 as only something God can do INTERNALLY when a person is saved:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This internal revelation is the "substance" of faith without which it is impossible to believe in Christ.

If God inspires and sends a messenger to preach HIS MESSAGE, would you call that 'teaching by men' or 'teaching by God?' You seem to think God's use of normative means (i.e. teaching through man) removes God's ownership or working in and through those means.

No preacher can write the law of God on the human heart. No preacher can open the heart or change the heart so that it embraces Christ. The Scriptures make a clear distinction between how external means are used by God and what they cannot do. In 2 Cor. 4:6 is only what God can do and in 2 Cor. 4:7 Paul acknowledges that the human instrumentality is not responsible for that aspect of salvation which is INTERNAL which only God alone can do.

Means of God that use humans are still of God and are credited to God, otherwise can you even call scripture itself something that God does?

Take it up with the apostle Paul who denies that the human instrumentality has any part in in obtaining the internal aspect of salvation (2 Cor. 4:7 "not of us"). Take it up with the apostle John who denies the new birth is of the "will of man" but is wholly a creative work of God INTERNAL (Jn. 1:13; 3:6).

My position does not deny the use of human instrumentality by God, but my position recognizes where the scriptures draw a line between what is accomplished by external means and what God alone can do internally in the salvation of His elect. External means, including the gospel has no power to change the hearts of men. That power is of God and occurs only when God HImself infuses the gospel with His own power (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 4:6) and no man, no gospel message can do that in and of themselves.

John 6:44-45; Jeremian 31:33-34; Ezek. 36:27-28; Isa. 54:13 all have reference to the NEW COVENANT salvation that is applied to all individual elect right now (Heb. 8,10) as the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" (Heb. 13:20) and "shall" be applied to Israel as a nation, in one day at the coming of Christ when the nation as a whole CONSISTING OF INDIVIDUAL ELECT shall be saved (Rom. 11:25-28). Note that the future tense "shall" is found in all the passages referenced by Christ in John 6:45a and as used in Hebrews 8,10 but is yet still PRESENTLY applied to all elect as the only way of salvation from Genesis to Revelation (Heb. 13:20; Acts 10:43; 4:12; 26:22-23).

Skandelon, your theory is simply wrong and the only way you can continue to promote it is to intentionally refuse to distinguish between things that differ. Election to office, election to national priviledges and election to salvation are not one and the same things and the case of Judas should open your eyes to that fact.

 

[Skandelon]

Just because election to apostolic office is mentioned in the same chapter as election to eternal life does not mean you have any exegetical basis to confuse them.

But the fact that it IS mentioned shouldn't be ignored, either...which is what you are essentially doing by discounting even the possibility that the given context of John 6, where most of Israel is being blinded temporarily in their rebellion while a preselect few of Israel (apostles) are being drawn to the Messiah while here on earth to be discipled for the coming task of establishing His church and dispersing the gospel, which is the means of God to draw ALL MEN to himself...first the Jews and then the Gentiles.

Election to apostolic office is not synonmous with election to eternal life "as many as thou hast given" (Jn. 17:2-3).

Well, obviously I would agree with that, because I don't believe in individual election to eternal life like you do, which is the very reason I am highlighting the distinction that you acknowledge above. Calvinism, not us, is the one guilty of equivocation regarding God's choice of appointed messengers and their view of individual election.

Neither is election to national privilege the same as election to apostolic office or salvation.

I agree, there is a distinction...yet it was from Israel that God chose His apostles, so that aspect is not unrelated.

Only by failing to intentionally distinguish between things that differ can your position be defended.

Huh? I'm the one that has been pointing out these distinctions all along, so why now would you accused me of 'failing to distinguish between them?' I think you must be confused. It is YOUR system that fails to make the distinctions, because you all regularly use verses talking about national privilege and apostolic office as proof texts for your view of individual/unconditional election.

We were debating the meaning of "cometh" in John 6! It is contextually defined to mean "believe on me" (Jn. 6:35-36). People came to Christ in faith before, during and after his earthly ministry (Acts 10:43; Mt. 11:30; Acts 4:12). Time and the cross has absolutely no effect upon the meaning of that term.

Some did 'come' or 'believe' in Jesus while he was on earth, but He didn't entrust himself to them. These are the same ones who ended up walking away after hearing Jesus' difficult teaching in John 6. They couldn't really believe because they were being hardened, according to Jesus (John 12:39ff).

But, bro, I'm not denying that definition of 'come to him'...as it doesn't affect what I'm arguing. No one CAN believe on Christ unless they are drawn. Just as no one can come to a wedding banquet without an invite. Just as not one can believe in whom they have not heard. (Rm 10) But if you are being blinded from that invitation, that revelation, as the Jews of that day were (except for a few), then you are not 'enabled' to come to Him...He has not entrusted Himself to them because its not the right time. It is ONLY after He accomplishes the work of redemption on the cross that commissions his appointed messengers from Israel, send down his spirit like fire, and 'draws all men to himself.'

 

[Skandelon]

Your problem is that not only the very text (Jn. 6:44) speaks of man's total inability as the basis for the necessity of the Father's drawing but then is followed by Jesus referencing PLURAL "prophets" (Isa 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34) where this work of the Father is completely INTERNAL and without human means:

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I have to respond to this one. My view that God's external means have an internal impact can't be disproven by presenting texts which show that God will impact people internally, because its an argument from silence. It presumes that means aren't being used, when clearly we know that God DOES use means to impact people internally. Just a warning here, I think other Calvinists here have called you on this too, you are treading into Hyperism with this line of argumentation. I'm familiar with the historical arguments of Hyper-Calvinism and this is exactly the type of thing they argue.

Also, if you want to get into an OT quoting war, I'll add this one to the mix:

1 These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life. 3 Hear, O Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised you. 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Notice that the same exact expression of writing these commandments "upon your hearts" yet in this verse he actually follows it up with EXTERNAL means by which this can happen. He instructs them to impress it or teach it to their children (external means), talk about them regularly (external means), write them on the doorposts (external means), all of which have the INTERNAL impact of writing these things on their heart and...GET THIS PART...even though they are using external means to have an internal impact, they still GIVE GOD ALL THE CREDIT FOR DOING IT. Why because they are HIS MEANS....HIS INSTRUCTIONS...HIS WORD.

 

[Skandelon]

I'd also add the OT quotes:

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. 15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

The cross reference for this is in Romans 10 when Paul is speaking of the power of God's word to bring faith and that is why he can say 'it is not too difficult for you,' for what cannot be accomplished by works can certainly be accomplished in faith.