Objections to Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [/COLOR]
Your Calvinism is done for here.....unless you choose to ignore the Scripture.

Not at all ...we just understand the verses.

 

[Iconoclast]

webdog

Back to the original point. Peter's use of "us" is in reference to Gods extreme patience with the Jews throughout time, including up until the present.

Your statement does not match the scriptural data-

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Before Israel was a nation...God was longsuffering on behalf of the elect....

After Israel was a nation the longsuffering of God was mentioned in reference to the elect remnant of Jews...and the grafted in gentiles, the church.....

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

here as posted earlier...it is believers vs unbelievers:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Why think that? When the church was dispersed it was throughout the entire region. Paul would have addressed the gentile church.

Back to the original point. Peter's use of "us" is in reference to Gods extreme patience with the Jews throughout time, including up until the present.

So then by using your same thought process, the OT "us" was solely to the Jews, and has no bearing on us, too? The Law was given to Israel, namely the Jews, so then we don't have to obey the Law? The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews whilst Moses was on Mount Sinai, so we don't have to obey them because they were addressed to the Jews only?


That's the fallacy of what you're saying here. I wholeheartedly agree that Peter was writing to the Jews, but you and I are Jews as well. We have been grafted into the True Vine, Jesus Christ and are now Jews inwardly.



"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."(Romans 11:13-29)



When we were grafted into Christ, we partook of His goodness. We take upon us His image, as He is our imagebearer before the Father, as He see us through Christ.





"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."(Galatians 3:26-29)


We are a new creation in Christ Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

Now, I want you to go back to Genesis and read God's dealings with Adam. Find me one time where God told Adam to worship Him.

That is an very good question, Brother. :thumbsup: TBS, I don't know if the bible explicitly states it, but I will attempt to show you Adam was commanded to obey God....imo...obeying is worshipping....


--The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.(Proverbs 10:1)

--A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish man despiseth his mother.(Proverbs 15:20)


Look closely at those two verses. True wisdom is only found in Christ. That is the only place any of us has righteouness, honor, wisdom, and peace. Adam had that whilst he was in the Garden. He was in communion with God, being in the imago dei. He had righteousness, being created upright. He had peace whilst in the Garden. He had honor, being our imagebearer. He had wisdom, being able to choose from right and wrong. Yet, when he sinned and subsequently fell, he lost all of that. Jesus said in Matthew 7..."Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."(vss 24,25) He was on that sure foundation, but when he sinned, he fell from the foundation, and in the process, caused us to fall, too. Jesus stated this in the same chapter of Matthew 7..."And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."(vss 26-27) Adam was given the command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and yet, he foolishly did. If he would have chose wisely, his Father, God, would have remained glad. Yet, when he sinned, God thrusted him out of the Garden.

And then while you are there, find me the passages that speak on Adam's loss of freedom to choose between following God or rejecting God. You could also explain why God had to guard the tree of life less Adam go freely take of it and live forever.

Now....THESE are excellent questions!! God gave Adam the ability to choose, whilst he was upright. He could freely choose between good and evil. We, we aren't born in Adam's upright state. We are born fallen creatures, and can not choose betwixt good and evil...whilst in that fallen state. That's why one must be born from above, regenerated, quickened, made alive, etc. Once God has regenerated us, we can then chosse to do that which is good. In a fallen state? Not so much...

For whatever reason, God thrusted him out before he could lay hold on the Tree of Life. That much we know. Did Adam have a desire to go to that Tree after he fell? I don't know, but would lean towards no. Why? Read Luke 16 and the Lazarus and rich man story. Even in the flames, as he communed with Abraham, not once did he ask Abraham to get him out of the torments of these flames. The Spirit was not drawing him, God was not working a will and a do according to His good pleasure whilst he was in those torments. So, Adam, IMO, had zero desire to go to that Tree of Life.

 

[steaver]

Now....THESE are excellent questions!! God gave Adam the ability to choose, whilst he was upright. He could freely choose between good and evil.

The free choice which Adam and Eve had was between believe God or believe Satan. They had no knowledge of good and evil.

We, we aren't born in Adam's upright state. We are born fallen creatures, and can not choose betwixt good and evil...whilst in that fallen state. That's why one must be born from above, regenerated, quickened, made alive, etc. Once God has regenerated us, we can then chosse to do that which is good. In a fallen state? Not so much...

The issue is not choosing between good and evil, never has been. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, but he was given the freedom to choose between believe God or don't believe God. This freedom of choice has never ceased. This is why God pleads all throughout Scripture for all to believe. Calvinist blind themselves to all of these pleas in favor of a flawed theology.

For whatever reason, God thrusted him out before he could lay hold on the Tree of Life. That much we know. Did Adam have a desire to go to that Tree after he fell? I don't know, but would lean towards no. Why? Read Luke 16 and the Lazarus and rich man story. Even in the flames, as he communed with Abraham, not once did he ask Abraham to get him out of the torments of these flames. The Spirit was not drawing him, God was not working a will and a do according to His good pleasure whilst he was in those torments. So, Adam, IMO, had zero desire to go to that Tree of Life

For whatever reason?? We are specifically told why. Question is, why do you choose to whisk it under the rug? God certainly understood Adam could freely take of the tree of life and says so, thus He has to block Adam from doing so.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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