Objections to Calvinism

[webdog]

PreachTony



I do not care if you read 2pet as one big run on sentence ....you see who the subject is .....To usward.......Peter contrasts elect believers with the scoffers.

If you cannot see it...should you be teaching anyone?

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you;

in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.



8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,


not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

"Usward" are the Jews. Context.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Usward" are the Jews. Context.

There is one new man In Christ now....there is no mention of Jews here.

the contrast is the unsaved and the saved.

 

[convicted1]

There is one new man In Christ now....there is no mention of Jews here.

the contrast is the unsaved and the saved.

 

[convicted1]

"Usward" are the Jews. Context.

2 Peter 1

1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


Where do you see only Jews at in the opening of 2 Peter?

 

[Rippon]

"Usward" are the Jews. Context.

Alexander MacLaren: "the language which is employed oblige us to see here a reference, not to the Jew, but to the whole body of Christian people..."

MacLaren is one of my favorite non-Calvinistic preachers of the 19th century.

Matthew Henry : "addressed to believers in general, who are strangers in every city or country where they live, and are scattered through the nations."

Barnes' Notes :"Christians as such, without reference to their origin, who were scattered through the various provinces of Asia Minor."

 

[webdog]

Alexander MacLaren: "the language which is employed oblige us to see here a reference, not to the Jew, but to the whole body of Christian people..."

MacLaren is one of my favorite non-Calvinistic preachers of the 19th century.

Matthew Henry : "addressed to believers in general, who are strangers in every city or country where they live, and are scattered through the nations."

Barnes' Notes :"Christians as such, without reference to their origin, who were scattered through the various provinces of Asia Minor."

Written to the early church that was dispersed consisting of a vast majority if not all Jews. Peter was the apostle to the Jews.

 

[webdog]

2 Peter 1

1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


Where do you see only Jews at in the opening of 2 Peter?

Chapter 3 "This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, brethren.”

Who was the first letter written to?

"To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, "

The entire context of 1 Peter and 2 Peter are the Jews.

 

[Iconoclast]

Written to the early church that was dispersed consisting of a vast majority if not all Jews. Peter was the apostle to the Jews.

God does not save us any different than he does the Jews we have like precious faith

 

[convicted1]

Chapter 3 "This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, brethren.”

Who was the first letter written to?

"To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, "

The entire context of 1 Peter and 2 Peter are the Jews.

If these two epistles don't pertain to us, then neither does the OT, and primarily the Law. Welcome to antinomianism...

Also, the Jews' wives are the only ones who have to be in subjection to their husbands, as per 1 Peter 3, if this is addressed solely to the Jews...

 

[convicted1]

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.


Is this addressed solely to Jews?

 

[convicted1]

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Is the church at Babylon, elected together with the target group of his first epistle a Jewish church? I'm thinking it was a gentile church...

 

[Inspector Javert]

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Is the church at Babylon, elected together with the target group of his first epistle a Jewish church? I'm thinking it was a gentile church...

Quite possibly.........
Daniel lived in Babylon.

The entire Medo-Persian Empire was once decreed to only worship the God of Daniel:

Dan 6:26
I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end

That's God calling his "elect" from the entire known Universe right there...Jew and Gentile alike....

Who-da thunk it....
God has always wanted all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth:
Even in the Old Testament God was drawing to himself MILLIONS..........

I Ti 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Subject = God
What about God?
His WILL
And what is God's "WILL"?

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Your Calvinism is done for here.....unless you choose to ignore the Scripture.

 

[convicted1]

Quite possibly.........
Daniel lived in Babylon.

The entire Medo-Persian Empire was once decreed to only worship the God of Daniel:

Dan 6:26
I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end

That's God calling his "elect" from the entire known Universe right there...Jew and Gentile alike....

Who-da thunk it....
God has always wanted all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth:
Even in the Old Testament God was drawing to himself MILLIONS..........

I Ti 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Subject = God
What about God?
His WILL
And what is God's "WILL"?

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Your Calvinism is done for here.....unless you choose to ignore the Scripture.

Thank you Brother for this response. Now, to respond to something you said in the middle of it....


God has always wanted all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth:


Now, I want you to go back to Exodus and read Moses' dealings with Pharaoh. Find me one time where God told Moses to tell Pharaoh to "worship the God of Israel".

It's not there. Not once did the "God of Israel" tell Moses to tell Pharaoh and Egypt to worship Him. All I can find were these sayings God gave to Moses to tell Pharaoh...


--And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.(Exodus 9:16)

--And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.(Exodus 5:1)

--And thou shalt say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.(Exodus 7:16)

--And the Lord spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me.(Exodus 8:1)

--And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me.(Exodus 8:20)

--And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be. And the Lord did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.(Exodus 8:23,24)

--Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.(Exodus 9:1)

--And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.(Exodus 9:13)

--And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.(Exodus 10:3)


Now, don't take my word, or these proof texts, but and read this account for yourself. Not once did God command Moses to bring any type of message of reconciliation to Pharoah and Egypt. Not once. If He was desiring all men to be saved, then where was the message at here?


Then how about Goliath and the Philistines? They worshipped other Gods. They never were offered reconciliation, iirc...

 

[Inspector Javert]

[

QUOTE=convicted1;2159343]Thank you Brother for this response. Now, to respond to something you said in the middle of it....


God has always wanted all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth:


Now, I want you to go back to Exodus and read Moses' dealings with Pharaoh. Find me one time where God told Moses to tell Pharaoh to "worship the God of Israel".

It's not there. Not once did the "God of Israel" tell Moses to tell Pharaoh and Egypt to worship Him.

Correct:
Not once is it recorded that God told Pharaoh to worship him:
Not here that is true.

Despite the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for more than 400 years...God did not see fit to record a particular command that that particular Pharaoh to worship him at that time...that's true:

We DO KNOW that the Egyptians were not without a witness of the one true God:
We DO KNOW that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for 400 YEARS
We DO KNOW that there was a Pharaoh who appears to have worshipped him...

Tutankhamen's granddaddy (I believe):
Unless I am mistaken...
"Tutankhamen" was originally named:
"Tutankhaten"...

The Egyptians had a witness of the one true God:

Perhaps you have never heard of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

I wouldn't be dogmatic about proclaiming that Akhenaton worshipped the one true God........but it appears to possibly be so. It is quite possible that the limited information we have tells us that he was a worshipper of the one true God.

He was a Monotheist...
He worshipped only the creator of both heaven and Earth:
He relocated his capital city away from Thebes into a City he proclaimed to honor only the "One true God" or "Aten"...as he called it...



His hymn to the "Aten" bears remarkable similarity to Psalm 104:
Depending upon what translation one uses...........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

There was a Pharaoh who may have worshipped God.

The Egyptians were NOT without a witness of the one true God.
They knew who he was, never doubt that much.
That's why Romans chapters 1 and 2 are relevant...........
Read them.

 

[convicted1]

Correct:
Not once is it recorded that God told Pharaoh to worship him:
Not here that is true.

Despite the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for more than 400 years...God did not see fit to record a particular command that that particular Pharaoh to worship him at that time...that's true:

We DO KNOW that the Egyptians were not without a witness of the one true God:
We DO KNOW that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for 400 YEARS
We DO KNOW that there was a Pharaoh who appears to have worshipped him...

Tutankhamen's granddaddy (I believe):
Unless I am mistaken...
"Tutankhamen" was originally named:
"Tutankhaten"...

The Egyptians had a witness of the one true God:

Perhaps you have never heard of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

I wouldn't be dogmatic about proclaiming that Akhenaton worshipped the one true God........but it appears to possibly be so. It is quite possible that the limited information we have tells us that he was a worshipper of the one true God.

He was a Monotheist...
He worshipped only the creator of both heaven and Earth:
He relocated his capital city away from Thebes into a City he proclaimed to honor only the "One true God" or "Aten"...as he called it...



His hymn to the "Aten" bears remarkable similarity to Psalm 104:
Depending upon what translation one uses...........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

There was a Pharaoh who may have worshipped God.

The Egyptians were NOT without a witness of the one true God.
They knew who he was, never doubt that much.
That's why Romans chapters 1 and 2 are relevant...........
Read them.

That's much like the native americans who knew there was a "happy hunting ground", an "hereafter" when they died. They even left the hearts of the animals they killed, in the wilderness so their souls/spirits would freely roam. But that doesn't mean they worshipped the "one true and Living God". I had never heard of the info you posted here, so I really need to investigate it. However, wikipedia isn't that reliable, imo...too easy for anyone to edit the info given. But thanks for the insight.


I figure there were some sheep in Egypt, but Moses addressed them en masse. It's like when the bible said Jerusalem did this, or Israel did that, or Judah did that, it didn't mean that everyone there did it, but the vast majority did. We, for all intents and purposes, have become a God-less nation. Now, I said "we", but we, the CHRISTians, haven't become God-less. But the country as a whole has. I tend to read the bible that way. When all of Israel did something, not every single living person at that time did it, but probably the vast majority did. That's how I see God dealing with sinners. He is not willing that any...the "us-ward" to perish. He desires all to be saved, but all doesn't mean every single person who ever lived....

 

[Inspector Javert]

That's much like the native americans who knew there was a "happy hunting ground", an "hereafter" when they died. They even left the hearts of the animals they killed, in the wilderness so their souls/spirits would freely roam. But that doesn't mean they worshipped the "one true and Living God". I had never heard of the info you posted here, so I really need to investigate it. However, wikipedia isn't that reliable, imo...too easy for anyone to edit the info given. But thanks for the insight.

I assure you...

Wikipedia wasn't the original source from which I had derived that idea....
I only linked to it because it is a readily available starting point......
I don't simply troll wiki for my knowledge of history. I promise you, it was reading Historical Tomes which led me to link to it at all... :thumbs:

And...it's nothing...absolutely NOTHING like a "happy hunting ground"...
It's WAY more than that.

It's a guy uprooting what is the prevailing ideology of the most powerful Empire extant at that age...
It's NOTHING like a few starving heathens and their animistic ideas...

Do some more research.
It's WAY beyond that.

Hate to break it to the Liberal Post-modernists who think that the accomplishments of the Heathen Indians of North America were even comparable to Civilizations of the Old World, but, no...
Their idiotic "Hunting-Grounds" are NOTHING like what I led you to with Akhenaton and the Egyptian Empire...
There's no comparison.
You completely missed it if you think they are the same.

I figure there were some sheep in Egypt, but Moses addressed them en masse.

of course...
So, why would you assume then that God had no intention of saving them?

It's like when the bible said Jerusalem did this, or Israel did that, or Judah did that, it didn't mean that everyone there did it, but the vast majority did. We, for all intents and purposes, have become a God-less nation. Now, I said "we", but we, the CHRISTians, haven't become God-less. But the country as a whole has. I tend to read the bible that way. When all of Israel did something, not every single living person at that time did it, but probably the vast majority did. That's how I see God dealing with sinners

I'm with you up to this point....

He is not willing that any...the "us-ward" to perish. He desires all to be saved, but all doesn't mean every single person who ever lived...

Why did you import "the us-ward" into this passage???

That's an entirely different Apostle (Peter) to a differing group of people.

I'm quoting Paul to Timothy:

1Ti 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Ti 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Just read that passage alone...
Just what Paul said to Timothy...
There is NO WAY....
NONE....

That when Paul says that God WOULD:
have all men to be saved...he is talking about anything other than all people...
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You are ignoring the passages in Paul's letter to Timothy in favour of something you believe about Peter (and the Calvies are wrong about that one too B.T.W.)

Don't confuse them.

 

[convicted1]

Brother IJ,


The only reason I used the native americans in my example was to compare their similiarities. As I previously stated, I had never heard of what you posted, so I need to read up on it.


Oddly enough, I once was listening to a sermon by Fredrick K.C. Price's son...can't remember his name...and he was preaching against secret societies(sp?) in the church. He mentioned that back during the time of Babel, when they were building the tower, they spoke the same language. After God confounded them and gave them differing tongues, they dispersed and went their seperate ways. As time went on, they all had the same truth to begin with, but it got "fuzzied" through the years.

Why do I say this? I think it's applicable here. After they were dispersed, their ancestors all held to a higher Being. Over time, they exchanged God for a "god". They were worshipping something, but not the one, true and living God. So that is why I believe that most people...even the devout atheist has their doubts deep inside themselves, imo...believe there is Someone higher than themselves. The native americans did, the Philistines did, and pretty much all other OT peoples. This is where I see Romans 1 and Psalms 19 fitting into this discussion...

 

[RLBosley]

Oh come on (kicks the can opener forward) :smilewinkgrin:

ROFL :laugh::laugh:

 

[webdog]

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Is the church at Babylon, elected together with the target group of his first epistle a Jewish church? I'm thinking it was a gentile church...

Why think that? When the church was dispersed it was throughout the entire region. Paul would have addressed the gentile church.

Back to the original point. Peter's use of "us" is in reference to Gods extreme patience with the Jews throughout time, including up until the present.

 

[steaver]

Now, I want you to go back to Exodus and read Moses' dealings with Pharaoh. Find me one time where God told Moses to tell Pharaoh to "worship the God of Israel".

Now, I want you to go back to Genesis and read God's dealings with Adam. Find me one time where God told Adam to worship Him.

And then while you are there, find me the passages that speak on Adam's loss of freedom to choose between following God or rejecting God. You could also explain why God had to guard the tree of life less Adam go freely take of it and live forever.