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Objections to the Teetotalism view on Alcohol

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Marooncat79

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^i am pretty sure that Paul is talking about meat that has been sacraficed to idols in pagan temples there which is why he uses the terms clean and unclean. Remember early christians came out of true paganism where this actually happened and some younger believers would have been horrified at the link between the 2.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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So if some was a recovering alcoholic you would drink in front of them, but then take them to an AA meeting??? Your solution to potential harm you may have caused them is to take them to a meeting. The fact that you would take them to a meeting after drinking in front of them, means you know that you would be doing harm to them. You just don't seem to care and think the free ride to a meeting absolves you of the offense.

To answer you question on what I would do. Same thing Paul says.

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love"

"Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble."



Absolutely no differences between food and alcohol here.

I would only take them to an Aa meeting if they needed it....thats if they were out of control. My wifes an acholoic and i just had a beer in front of her and she will tell you she could care less. She just bought some pumpkin muffins and they sit there in the kitchen. Guess what, she knows full well that i am a diabetic....but she also knows that if i am to survive then i have to reject those muffins. And she doesnt have to, she isnt a diabetic. Why should she suffer ....isnt her problem. So if you are a drunk, hey i will help you, i will drag you out of a bar, i will go to AA with you....but from there you are on your own, so grow up and face your problem....i dont got the problem.....and if you drink, your in denial and thats your problem.
 

McCree79

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^i am pretty sure that Paul is talking about meat that has been sacraficed to idols in pagan temples there which is why he uses the terms clean and unclean. Remember early christians came out of true paganism where this actually happened and some younger believers would have been horrified at the link between the 2.
It's not an issue of clean or unclean. It is a matter of a brothers conscience. That is the core issue. Not meat, not clean or unclean.

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McCree79

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I would only take them to an Aa meeting if they needed it....thats if they were out of control. My wifes an acholoic and i just had a beer in front of her and she will tell you she could care less. She just bought some pumpkin muffins and they sit there in the kitchen. Guess what, she knows full well that i am a diabetic....but she also knows that if i am to survive then i have to reject those muffins. And she doesnt have to, she isnt a diabetic. Why should she suffer ....isnt her problem. So if you are a drunk, hey i will help you, i will drag you out of a bar, i will go to AA with you....but from there you are on your own, so grow up and face your problem....i dont got the problem.....and if you drink, your in denial and thats your problem.
That's fine. If no one is offended, not an issue. If she doesn't care, no problem. If it ever becomes an issue for her....if she says "honey, I need you to get all the alcohol out of the house. The temptation is too much". Are you going to tell her, " not my problem. You needed to grow up." ?

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SovereignGrace

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Please note that I am being sincere here. I find questions like this to be suspicious. Who does not know that what a Dr. Prescribes for health reasons is medicinal? I do not care for questions with obvious answers. They are often sarcasm or they are set up questions. I am a bit annoyed at this point.

Why the annoyance? I said I had heard this, and was not saying this was set in stone. But there are many reports of the benefits of a glass of red wine. I said a glass, not bottle, of red wine.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/in-depth/red-wine/art-20048281

Now, you can read in the link Dr's are precautious of telling anyone to start drinking. But it also said that it increased HDL levels. HDL is the lipoprotein that takes cholesterol from the arteries to the liver to be taken out of the circulatory system. This could help prevent heart disease and heart attacks, and probably strokes as well, seeing the plaque does not get built up in the system.


http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/8-health-benefits-of-drinking-wine


I am not doing anything that you should be suspicious about. I have not taken a drink in almost 10 years...unless you count Nyquil that contains 10% alcohol by volume.
 

SovereignGrace

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Explain how there can fine or inferior grape juice? Choice and cheaper grape juice? Good and poor grape juice? Good and worse grape juice?

How does one "drink too much grape juice"?

Also, Bishops are to abstain from drinking Welch's Grape Juice and Deacons can only drink so much of it. Also, drink a little Welch's because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
 

InTheLight

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Aged women are not to drink too much grape juice either. And if someone is KJVO like Jordan they're supposed to quit drinking water and only drink grape juice ("drink no longer water"...)

For health reasons I've had to give up both alcohol and coffee. It's only been 5 months, but it's all good. I hope I can make it to the 35 year club.
 

SovereignGrace

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The wine Paul told Timothy to use for his stomach was the Greek word 'oinos'. Now, I do not know if that is fermented or not. The same Greek word was used for wine in John 2:9.


So, I do not know if it means fermented wine or not. But it appears that it could mean that. Why are Bishops to abstain while Deacons are allowed some? If it was grape juice, why would it matter? So I tend to believe 'oinos' is fermented wine.
 

evangelist6589

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Depends why the preacher is preaching abstinence from alcohol. If it is to keep your brother from stumbling, I don't have an issue with that. The argument Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 8 could easily be applied to alcohol. "Be careful that your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak..... When you sin agaisnt them this way, you sin against Christ..... Therefore, if what i eat,(what I drink, for our conversation) causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall"

This view would be love for your brother not legalism.

Yes I concur, but when the pastor makes a rule that no member shall have a sip of alcohol that is what I refer to as legalism as he is forcing his convictions on others.
 

evangelist6589

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John Chapter 2 recounts Jesus's first miracle was to convert water into wine.

John 2:10 would seem to indicate that the wine Jesus created was quite intoxicating since the host of the feast marveled that this "new wine" was even more intoxicating than the wine he'd supplied for the feast.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it states that the mere consumption of wine per se is inherently sinful.

Although the Bible does condemn drinking to excess, if the mere consumption of intoxicating wine is inherently sinful, why would Paul in 1 Timothy 5:23 advise Timothy not to drink water but a little wine?

Moreover, prior to the rise of the abstinence movement in the US in the 1800's, most Christian churches in the US used wine when they observed the Lord's Supper.

Grape juice is what Baptists will call it in John 2. Are you saying that in the 17th century most Churches used wine in communion?
 

evangelist6589

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Not meaning to come off snarky mon ami, but I do desire to ask you a question. Which is more important, your belly or your Brother in Christ? If eating meat, as Paul stated, would cause his brother to fall into sin, he would not eat any meat again.

So is your belly or Brother more important to you? And no, I am not in the teetotalism camp, either.

What would be the harm of having a drink in the comfort and isolation of my own home?
 

evangelist6589

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Ok. I am so tired of this legalism word being used.

Legalism is when you teach works for salvation.

Not entirely true.

It really get's old seeing people pull out the "you're a legalist" card anytime someone stands for holiness and pure separated living. May I remind you we do not belong to ourselves anymore we belong to Christ... it is the false teachers who "deny the Lord that bought them".

The scriptures are clear that you are not even to look upon wine..

1 Tim 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

It would seem according to the passage above that Paul recognized the benefits of wine for medical purposes. According to this article Wine does have some positive medical effects

"Wine, especially the red variety, has been studied extensively over many years with impressive findings suggesting it may promote a longer lifespan, protect against certain cancers, improve mental health, and provide benefits to the heart" (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265635.php).

1 Tim 3:2-3 (NIV)
Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

A parallel passage of Tit 2:3 says that the older women not be addicted to “much wine” and the ESV says that older women not be slaves of much wine. This passage would indicate that a elder/deacon may drink wine or alcoholic beverage in moderation just as long as it does not lead to drunkenness. I am aware that most Baptist churches teach total abstinence from alcohol, but this may be more of a tradition rather than what is taught in scripture.

Psalm 104:14–15 (ESV)
14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth 15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.

According to this passage wine is considered a blessing and not snake poison as you said in your message. How then can wine be a curse if it gladdens the heart of man? I believe that verses that you referenced in your message were speaking about alcohol abuse, not necessarily about positive uses of alcohol. Alcohol like anything can be abused. The Bible has much to say about gluttony as well that many choose to carefully avoid, but rather condemn alcohol because in their mind gluttony is not a sin but alcohol abuse is.

Isa 55:1 (NIV)
“Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

According to RC Sproul Wine and milk are symbols of complete satisfaction and therefore wine or alcoholic drink is not a curse but a blessing that can be abused.

Just something for you to think about.

and that we are to be of a sober mind. The other think you need to realize is that not every time the word wine is used in the scriptures is it talking about alcoholic wine. Back in the day Welch's sold their grape juice and it was called "Welch's Unfermented Wine". I remember a long time ago on a website even seeing the Greek word that's translated as wine in John Chapter 2 being used in quotations of Ancient Greeks and it being used to refer to juice of a fruit. So even the ancient Greeks used the word oinos to mean grape juice.

Allow me to quote from this Pamphlet from my Pastor:http://www.cbctinleypark.org/assets/god-and-alcohol.pdf

"Two examples:
Let’s illustrate our point of the difficulty with two examples,
one from the Old Testament and one from the New
Testament.
Judges 9:13, “And the vine said unto them, Should I leave
my wine, which cheereth God and man…” Here the word
“wine” is used positively to cheer both God and man. But
compare this with Proverbs 23:31,32, which says, “Look not
thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in
the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At last it biteth like a
serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” Here the word “wine” is
used negatively to speak of the horrible effects of wine.
How are these two seemingly contradictory verses made to
be agreeable and understandable?
Paul said to Timothy in I Timothy 3:3, that as a bishop he is
not, “to be given to wine.” But then in the same book in
I Timothy 5:23, the same apostle Paul told the same Timothy
to, “use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often
infirmities. Once again we have a positive commendation
and a negative condemnation. How are these reconciled?"

"Then on page 36, “The Greeks as well as the Hebrews called
the fresh juice wine.”
 

evangelist6589

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It appears that you seem to believe that the NT states that the word "wine" in John Chapter 2 is not intoxicating. I don't know where exactly you've come up with that conclusion from the NT.

In the NT, one will find that the English word "wine" was always translated from the Greek word oinos. Every other place in the Greek NT where oinos is used, it always refers to "intoxicating wine."

The Jewish wedding feast mentioned in John Chapter 2 was no different than any other Jewish wedding feast of that era. It was standard practice at such wedding feasts, some of which lasted for many days, to consume more than the usual daily quantity of wine.

It was incumbent upon the host/ruler of the wedding feast to serve the more intoxicating wine during the initial stages of the wedding feast, then, as the feast progressed, the host/ruler would add water to the wine so as not to let the wine be completely depleted.

This is why the host/ruler of the wedding feast--who apparently was unaware of the fact [See John 2:9] that Jesus had created more intoxicating wine from the rather large water pots--whose individual capacity ranged from 18-27 gallons--commented that this intoxicating wine was apparently even more intoxicating than the wine that he himself had secured for the wedding feast.

In Dr. Spiros Zodhiates' Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament [(c) 1992 by AMG], he states in his entry for the Greek word oinos that this Greek word was always used as intoxicating wine.

In both Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34 of being a "winebibber." The Greek word for "winebibber" is oinopotou, which, as one can easily see, is derived from the root word oinos. Is it not logical that the wine used in these two gospel accounts would, of necessity be intoxicating? Surely Christ wouldn't be accused of consuming something as a sort of grape juice, would He?

Why would Paul, in both 1 Timothy 3 and in both Titus 1 & 2, as he was setting forth the qualifications for local church officers, not be referring to intoxicating wine? I have yet to observe a local church refusing to vet a man if he were guilty of consuming a type of grape juice.

The Apostle Peter, in 1 Peter 4:3, when he addressed the NT Jewish Christians to not revert back to the riot-filled lives of the Gentiles, he particularly warned them not to engage in "excess of oinos--intoxicating wine.

In both Revelation 17 and 18 describes the end-times' "Babylon" Apostle John as luring the earth's rulers by having them be "made drunk with the oinos of her fornication" [17:2] and the end-times nations having been "drunk of the oinos of the wrath of her fornication..." [18:3].

The last time I checked, I found that it's quite a stretch to come to the conclusion that one can get drunk from merely consuming a form of grape juice.

I could go on citing other places where oinos is used, but I prefer to believe that whenever one sees oinois/"wine" in the text, it is referring to "intoxicating wine."

To accuse me of reading anything into the "wine" of John Chapter 2 without giving any specific linguistic proof to support your claim that oinos/"wine" isn't an intoxicating beverage is, IMHO, quite an affront to a fellow BB member.

Very strong arguments here. I plan to use some in a letter to the pastor (whom said he welcomed objections that he will address in his next message).
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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That's fine. If no one is offended, not an issue. If she doesn't care, no problem. If it ever becomes an issue for her....if she says "honey, I need you to get all the alcohol out of the house. The temptation is too much". Are you going to tell her, " not my problem. You needed to grow up." ?

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Yea that would never happen. BTW thats what she tells me with food...its your problem, deal with it.
 

kyredneck

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...I actually see a type here in Christ's first miracle, at a wedding no less, of changing the water of the word to wine that maketh merry the heart of man [Ps 104:15]. The gospel of His fulfilling the law and the prophets, abolishing death, and imparting life and immortality makes our hearts happy, as 'wine that maketh merry the heart of man'.

Pink:

"...This was Christ’s first miracle, and in it He shows us that God is pleased to use human instrumentality in performing the wonders of His grace. The miracle consisted in the supplying of wine and, as previously pointed out, wine symbolizes joy in God. Learn then, that the Lord is pleased to employ human agents in bringing joy to ‘the hearts of men. And what was the element Christ used on this occasion in producing the wine? It was water. Now "water" is one of the symbols of the written Word (see Ephesians 5:26). And how may we His servants, today, bring the wine of joy unto human hearts? By ministering the Word (see Ephesians 5:26). And how may we His servants, today, "servants" Christ’s command to fill those six empty waterpots of stone with water, might have seemed meaningless, if not foolish; but their obedience made them fellow-workers in the miracle! And to the wise of this world, who put their trust in legislation, and social amelioration, it seems useless to go forth unto the wicked with nothing more in our hands than a Book written almost two thousand years ago. Nevertheless, it has pleased God "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"—foolish, that is, in the estimate of the worldly wise. Here then is blessed instruction for the servants of God today. Let us go forth with the Water of life, implicitly obeying the commands of our Lord, and He will use us to bring the wine of Divine joy to many a sad heart...."
http://pbministries.org/books/pink/John/john_06.htm
 

Rolfe

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What would be the harm of having a drink in the comfort and isolation of my own home?

It is also your Wife's home. It would show your lack of respect for her opinion about drinking and would undermine her in your Stepson's eyes.
 
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wpe3bql

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Grape juice is what Baptists will call it in John 2. Are you saying that in the 17th century most Churches used wine in communion?
Most likely they did use wine in communion.

There are some Baptist churches that continue to use wine in their observance of the Lord's Supper today. For nearly 50 years, I was a member of two different Baptist churches located in two different continents who both ministered to Americans. They use "intoxicating wine" in their communion observances.

Prior to my receiving Christ as my personal Savior in 1966, I'd never heard of this happening--of course, as a lost person before I trusted Christ as my Savior, I never really cared that much about anything having to do with the Bible. The pastor of the first church of which I was a member produced many Baptist church newspapers that addressed the wine vs. grape juice issue.

The "grape juice side" never produced any NT passages that specifically stated that the contents of the cup that Jesus and His disciples used during their Last Supper--which forms the basis of the NT communion services [See 1 Cor. 11:20,23-29.]. Instead they used extra-biblical arguments taken primarily from the temperance movement, which didn't really take hold in the US until the last quarter of the 19th century. I'm not saying that the temperance movement in the US was anti-scriptural, but that per se shouldn't form the basis of a practice by Jews that extended at least as far back as c. 3,500 BC where one reads in Genesis 9 that after the flood Noah became drunk from the grapes he produced. Most orthodox Jews today still use intoxicating wine as a beverage both in regular social contexts as well as in their religious rites.

Most "grape-juice only" [GJO?] advocates probably have never taken much time to examine the every-day practices of the biblical era. For example, the OT prophet to Judah Zephaniah [c. 640 BC] prior to Judah's being invaded by Babylon, in 1:12 ff, he goes to great lengths to warn Judah that if they repent of their excessive drunkeness, God just might delay the Babylonians from destroying their nation.

The only way I know of how to get drunk from the product of their vineyards [1:13] is to consume intoxicating wine. Throughout the Bible there are warnings--not of merely consuming wine, but consuming it to excess.

I'm not advocating that a Christian should drink wine because of the negative image it presents to most Americans today. OTOH, drinking wine as an after meals beverage is a relatively common practice within the ranks of Christians outside the US.

In my previous posts in this thread, I cited several examples of the use of oinos in the NT where our English Bibles translate that word to mean wine. This very same usage is commonly found even in the LXX as well. While a word study of biblical Hebrew and Greek, will not always by itself solve every theological issue, a good working knowledge of these biblical languages can provide much insight into what the HS directed the men who were the human authors of God's Word. Thankfully in the past few decades there are lexical aids that are keyed to Strong's numbering system that make it a lot easier for laymen (as me!) to pursue some basic word studies.

Hopefully this will help you somewhat in your presentation.
 

Rippon

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What would be the harm of having a drink in the comfort and isolation of my own home?
That it would not be honoring the promise you made your wife. You had said on 7/18/2015:
"I do not buy or drink in my house for the sake of my wife's convictions."


[Although I don't how you could buy alcohol in your house.]
 
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