Objections to the Teetotalism view on Alcohol

[McCree79]

That's an old & misplaced argument that is in fact legalistic in its intent.

How is it legalistic? It does not state that all have to conform to this rule, nor is it excessive. How is it misplaced. The passage is about ones freedom causing another to stumble. Alcohol is certainly a stumbling block to many.

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[InTheLight]

Evan, I would be careful with this. You do not know who may have sought refuge in a church that holds to that view. You do not want to be the devil's tool to tempt those who have a problem.

Live and let live.

Good advice.

If this really bothers Evan he could have a private meeting with the pastor and point out that Jesus created real, alcoholic wine at the marriage feast of Cana, grape juice. The "best" wine (as spoken of in John 2) in those days was fermented longer and had more alcohol. He could also point out Isaiah 25:6 where aged fine wine is mentioned as being consumed by God's people. I'm sure he won't get anywhere in convincing the pastor, but at least he will have his say in the matter, which is important to him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's an old & misplaced argument that is in fact legalistic in its intent.

Not meaning to come off snarky mon ami, but I do desire to ask you a question. Which is more important, your belly or your Brother in Christ? If eating meat, as Paul stated, would cause his brother to fall into sin, he would not eat any meat again.

So is your belly or Brother more important to you? And no, I am not in the teetotalism camp, either.

 

[kyredneck]

Depends why the preacher is preaching abstinence from alcohol. If it is to keep your brother from stumbling, I don't have an issue with that. The argument Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 8 could easily be applied to alcohol. "Be careful that your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak..... When you sin agaisnt them this way, you sin against Christ..... Therefore, if what i eat,(what I drink, for our conversation) causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall"

This view would be love for your brother not legalism.

In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.
22 The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth. Ro 14

 

[SovereignGrace]

In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.
22 The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth. Ro 14

:thumbsup::applause:

My thoughts, too.

 

[McCree79]

In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.
22 The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth. Ro 14

I have no issue with that.

*I like this verse a lot from the same chapter as well.
v.15 "for if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love."

 

[OnlyaSinner]

The term "legalism" seems to be being used too freely, here and in many other places. IMO, a teetotalist position does not meet the definition of legalism unless the one holding it says that it's a requirement for salvation. Imposing one's own personal standards? Yes. Making majors of out minors? Yes. But that's a long way from adding works to grace, which is the definition of legalism for me.

Related question: Were there distilled beverages 2,000 years ago? I ask in reference to the fact that "wine" is often distinguished in scripture from "strong drink," and that distinction may be the source of the "diluted wine" position, where strong drink would refer to the undiluted product.

 

[evangelist6589]

The term "legalism" seems to be being used too freely, here and in many other places. IMO, a teetotalist position does not meet the definition of legalism unless the one holding it says that it's a requirement for salvation. Imposing one's own personal standards? Yes. Making majors of out minors? Yes. But that's a long way from adding works to grace, which is the definition of legalism for me.



Related question: Were there distilled beverages 2,000 years ago? I ask in reference to the fact that "wine" is often distinguished in scripture from "strong drink," and that distinction may be the source of the "diluted wine" position, where strong drink would refer to the undiluted product.

Legalism does not always pertain to salvation matters. For example a church that requires all members to read from the KJV is legalistic even though it's not a salvation issue.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I stand up against legalism.

Ok. I am so tired of this legalism word being used.

Legalism is when you teach works for salvation.

It really get's old seeing people pull out the "you're a legalist" card anytime someone stands for holiness and pure separated living. May I remind you we do not belong to ourselves anymore we belong to Christ... it is the false teachers who "deny the Lord that bought them".

The scriptures are clear that you are not even to look upon wine.. and that we are to be of a sober mind. The other think you need to realize is that not every time the word wine is used in the scriptures is it talking about alcoholic wine. Back in the day Welch's sold their grape juice and it was called "Welch's Unfermented Wine". I remember a long time ago on a website even seeing the Greek word that's translated as wine in John Chapter 2 being used in quotations of Ancient Greeks and it being used to refer to juice of a fruit. So even the ancient Greeks used the word oinos to mean grape juice.

Allow me to quote from this Pamphlet from my Pastor:http://www.cbctinleypark.org/assets/god-and-alcohol.pdf

"Two examples:
Let’s illustrate our point of the difficulty with two examples,
one from the Old Testament and one from the New
Testament.
Judges 9:13, “And the vine said unto them, Should I leave
my wine, which cheereth God and man…” Here the word
“wine” is used positively to cheer both God and man. But
compare this with Proverbs 23:31,32, which says, “Look not
thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in
the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At last it biteth like a
serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” Here the word “wine” is
used negatively to speak of the horrible effects of wine.
How are these two seemingly contradictory verses made to
be agreeable and understandable?
Paul said to Timothy in I Timothy 3:3, that as a bishop he is
not, “to be given to wine.” But then in the same book in
I Timothy 5:23, the same apostle Paul told the same Timothy
to, “use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often
infirmities. Once again we have a positive commendation
and a negative condemnation. How are these reconciled?"

"Then on page 36, “The Greeks as well as the Hebrews called
the fresh juice wine.”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.
22 The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth. Ro 14

Good... I'm a diabetic so don't have anything that's sugary around me....IE Carbs, sweets, breads.....generally "Food"! Give it up, give it up or I will consume a pizza & then its all your fault. :BangHead: Just nonsense!!!

 

[McCree79]

Legalism does not always pertain to salvation matters. For example a church that requires all members to read from the KJV is legalistic even though it's not a salvation issue.

It can be. If a church comes together because they are of the conscience that the KJV is the only version worth reading then so be it. If ESV or NIV readers join that church, they better be ready to give up there translations. If you are mature enough to realize other translations are acceptable, you still shouldn't use it to cause others to sin. You show up in a KJVO church with a ESV and bring others to anger or other offense of it....well, that sin is on you.

Same with alcohol. If that church holds to teetotalism, then new members should fall in line to not offend those of "weaker" conscience. If this is something new that pastor is undertaking in the church.... a new direction for the church.....then I would ask him why he is heading down this path. He may be aware of struggles of members in the church in regards to alcohol. If that is the case, he is doing the same thing Paul said the church of Corinth.

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[Jordan Kurecki]

John Chapter 2 recounts Jesus's first miracle was to convert water into wine.

John 2:10 would seem to indicate that the wine Jesus created was quite intoxicating since the host of the feast marveled that this "new wine" was even more intoxicating than the wine he'd supplied for the feast.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it states that the mere consumption of wine per se is inherently sinful.

Although the Bible does condemn drinking to excess, if the mere consumption of intoxicating wine is inherently sinful, why would Paul in 1 Timothy 5:23 advise Timothy not to drink water but a little wine?

Moreover, prior to the rise of the abstinence movement in the US in the 1800's, most Christian churches in the US used wine when they observed the Lord's Supper.

Nowhere does it indicate in John Chapter 2 that the wine Jesus made was intoxicating. you have to read that into the text.

 

[Rolfe]

In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.
22 The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth. Ro 14

Yep..........

 

[Rolfe]

Nowhere does it indicate in John Chapter 2 that the wine Jesus made was intoxicating. you have to read that into the text.

Where does it indicate that it was not?

 

[McCree79]

Good... I'm a diabetic so don't have anything that's sugary around me....IE Carbs, sweets, breads.....generally "Food"! Give it up, give it up or I will consume a pizza & then its all your fault. :BangHead: Just nonsense!!!

Then explain what Paul is saying in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 if you do not agree.

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[salzer mtn]

Good... I'm a diabetic so don't have anything that's sugary around me....IE Carbs, sweets, breads.....generally "Food"! Give it up, give it up or I will consume a pizza & then its all your fault. :BangHead: Just nonsense!!!

So did you drink all those years till you finally became a diabetic ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So did you drink all those years till you finally became a diabetic ?

Yea & I still drink:laugh: I dont care if you have a drink or two or tree around me. Its a matter of self control not non consumption.

I like women too but because I see a pretty girl walking down the street, doesn't mean that I will accost her. The mind (if disciplined) tells you to stop, that it isn't right, that you are in control of yourself, not the urge, not the hankering, not the whatever it is that you loose control over.

 

[InTheLight]

Nowhere does it indicate in John Chapter 2 that the wine Jesus made was intoxicating. you have to read that into the text.

You have to read into the text that it was only grape juice.

Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now. [NIV]

Everyone sets out the fine wine first, then, after people have drunk freely, the inferior. But you have kept the fine wine until now. [HCSB]

Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now! [NKJV]

Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. [KJV]

Explain how there can fine or inferior grape juice? Choice and cheaper grape juice? Good and poor grape juice? Good and worse grape juice?

How does one "drink too much grape juice"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then explain what Paul is saying in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 if you do not agree.

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as Kentuck said:

Originally Posted by kyredneck View Post
In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

 

[McCree79]

as Kentuck said:

Originally Posted by kyredneck View Post
In Ro 14 I take it that Paul is telling us that if you approve of something that others might have a problem with, don't flaunt your faith, keep it to yourself. Don't make waves, go have the beer and cigar at home.

But you argue for the opposite when you sarcastically said keep the sugars away from you. Would you drink in front of a brother who did not approve? Would you tell the brother you drink and he is wrong for opposing you?

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