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Observations on the closed 'tongues' thread
- Thread starter Walguy
- Start date
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Hey, susanpet! I've been praying for you, sweetie.
"MEE~maybe you ARE saved, in spite of your doctrine, but like they taught Patrick, one can lose his salvation at any given moment. What a bummer! My goodness, wonder which "sin" one has to do in order to "lose" it? I'd be a nervous wreck all day, wondering if I've already sinned the "wrong one", or is it the "right one"? How do you have a peaceful night's sleep? I thank God for the assurance of my salvation!
And even tho' you chose not to answer my twice-asked question, I DO know the answer (as I suspect you do too
"MEE~maybe you ARE saved, in spite of your doctrine, but like they taught Patrick, one can lose his salvation at any given moment. What a bummer! My goodness, wonder which "sin" one has to do in order to "lose" it? I'd be a nervous wreck all day, wondering if I've already sinned the "wrong one", or is it the "right one"? How do you have a peaceful night's sleep? I thank God for the assurance of my salvation!
And even tho' you chose not to answer my twice-asked question, I DO know the answer (as I suspect you do too
Romans 10:9) Paul is referring to the Jews not believing in the Christ. Yes, he wanted them to
believe in "the Messiah." They had to do this in order to repent, be baptized, and receive the Spirit of God.
Paul wasn't telling them "just to believe." There a lot of people that "believe" in the Lord, but that doesn't bring salvation to them.
Paul preached repentance, water baptism in the
name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy
Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
Acts 19: When Paul came to Ephesus he found certain disciples. He asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost. They said "no." Then he questioned their baptism. Here we see that John's baptism of repentance was not sufficent under Grace. Paul told them that they were to believe
on Jesus Christ.
After all of these instructions, about believing
in Jesus Christ, they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul laid hands on them and God filled them with the Holy Ghost and they spoke in tongues, which means that they were filled with His Spirit.
Gal. 18)Paul says,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we have preached unto you, let
him be accursed.
So, as you can see, Paul preached Acts 2:38 very strongly, as well as he gave instructions as to how to live for God, in the epistles.
Keep in mind that one has to be born again before the epistles could be of any effect. One could go by the epistles and maybe have a better life, but it wouldn't do them any good if they weren't born of water and of the Spirit.
MEE
MEE, you need to look at Romans 10 again.
v. 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You made an explanation for that, but then you went on to say: "Paul wasn't telling them "just to believe." There a lot of people that "believe" in the Lord, but that doesn't bring salvation to them."
You failed to look at the rest of the verses:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not only does Romans contradict you and validate what DHK and others have said to you about the way of salvation clearly being iterated in the epistles (letters to the different churches and different people), the book of Romans also NEVER mentions speaking in tongues, much less a tongue of angels, much less it being the "evidence" of salvation.
And when we say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation, then we must must must throw away, carve out, ignore, block from our minds, whatever, what the apostle Paul told us in 1 Cor 14:22 -- Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.
I can't believe this is still being bandied back and forth. Let it die, already. Everyone's at the point that they must prove they're the one that's correct, instead of actually discussing what the scripture truly says about the subject!
v. 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You made an explanation for that, but then you went on to say: "Paul wasn't telling them "just to believe." There a lot of people that "believe" in the Lord, but that doesn't bring salvation to them."
You failed to look at the rest of the verses:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not only does Romans contradict you and validate what DHK and others have said to you about the way of salvation clearly being iterated in the epistles (letters to the different churches and different people), the book of Romans also NEVER mentions speaking in tongues, much less a tongue of angels, much less it being the "evidence" of salvation.
And when we say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation, then we must must must throw away, carve out, ignore, block from our minds, whatever, what the apostle Paul told us in 1 Cor 14:22 -- Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.
I can't believe this is still being bandied back and forth. Let it die, already. Everyone's at the point that they must prove they're the one that's correct, instead of actually discussing what the scripture truly says about the subject!
MEE,
"Romans 10:9) Paul is referring to the Jews not believing in the Christ."
--Did you read the context of this passage. Paul is not referring just to Jews. In fact the whole purpose of this passage is to show that salvation is both for the Gentiles and the Jews. Consider the context:
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE that believeth.
12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"Yes he wanted them to believe in "the Messiah." They had to do this in order to repent, be baptized, and receive the Spirit of God."
--Paul says nothing of baptism. Like I said, you can't prove your heretical doctrines without the Book of Acts.
"Paul wasn't telling them "just to believe." There a lot of people that "believe" in the Lord, but that doesn't bring salvation to them."
--Paul DID tell them just to believe. That is what calling on the name of the Lord is. But you refuse to believe the Scriptures.
"Paul preached repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
That is heresy. You can't show me that anywhere in the epistles. Neither can you prove it in the Book of Acts, except by taking verses out of their context.
Acts 19: When Paul came to Ephesus he found certain disciples. He asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost. They said "no." Then he questioned their baptism. Here we see that John's baptism of repentance was not sufficent under Grace. Paul told them that they were to believe on Jesus Christ. After all of these instructions, about believing in Jesus Christ, they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul laid hands on them and God filled them with the Holy Ghost and they spoke in tongues, which means that they were filled with His Spirit.
--Your back in the Book of Acts again. Stick to Romans.
Gal. 18)Paul says,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
--You preach another gospel by adding in baptism. Paul says you should be accursed. You are indicted by your own words.
"So, as you can see, Paul preached Acts 2:38 very strongly, as well as he gave instructions as to how to live for God, in the epistles. Keep in mind that one has to be born again before the epistles could be of any effect. One could go by the epistles and maybe have a better life, but it wouldn't do them any good if they weren't born of water and of the Spirit."
The epistles do teach how to be born again. I was hoping that you would search them yourself to find out where. Your whole theology becomes messed up when you realize that books like 1Corinthians
Romans were both written in 57 or 58 A.D., both before the Book of Acts, which was written around 65 A.D. Paul wrote about salvation before Luke wrote about the events in Acts. Peter knew that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," was enough to be saved (Acts 16:31).
The Bible never speaks about being born again of water.
But it does speak about being born again: 1Pet.1:18-23
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
We are redeemed with the blood of Christ (Verse 19), born again by the Word of God (verse 23).
By Him (Christ), our faith and hope is in God (verse 21).
DHK
"Romans 10:9) Paul is referring to the Jews not believing in the Christ."
--Did you read the context of this passage. Paul is not referring just to Jews. In fact the whole purpose of this passage is to show that salvation is both for the Gentiles and the Jews. Consider the context:
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE that believeth.
12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"Yes he wanted them to believe in "the Messiah." They had to do this in order to repent, be baptized, and receive the Spirit of God."
--Paul says nothing of baptism. Like I said, you can't prove your heretical doctrines without the Book of Acts.
"Paul wasn't telling them "just to believe." There a lot of people that "believe" in the Lord, but that doesn't bring salvation to them."
--Paul DID tell them just to believe. That is what calling on the name of the Lord is. But you refuse to believe the Scriptures.
"Paul preached repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
That is heresy. You can't show me that anywhere in the epistles. Neither can you prove it in the Book of Acts, except by taking verses out of their context.
Acts 19: When Paul came to Ephesus he found certain disciples. He asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost. They said "no." Then he questioned their baptism. Here we see that John's baptism of repentance was not sufficent under Grace. Paul told them that they were to believe on Jesus Christ. After all of these instructions, about believing in Jesus Christ, they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul laid hands on them and God filled them with the Holy Ghost and they spoke in tongues, which means that they were filled with His Spirit.
--Your back in the Book of Acts again. Stick to Romans.
Gal. 18)Paul says,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
--You preach another gospel by adding in baptism. Paul says you should be accursed. You are indicted by your own words.
"So, as you can see, Paul preached Acts 2:38 very strongly, as well as he gave instructions as to how to live for God, in the epistles. Keep in mind that one has to be born again before the epistles could be of any effect. One could go by the epistles and maybe have a better life, but it wouldn't do them any good if they weren't born of water and of the Spirit."
The epistles do teach how to be born again. I was hoping that you would search them yourself to find out where. Your whole theology becomes messed up when you realize that books like 1Corinthians
Romans were both written in 57 or 58 A.D., both before the Book of Acts, which was written around 65 A.D. Paul wrote about salvation before Luke wrote about the events in Acts. Peter knew that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," was enough to be saved (Acts 16:31).
The Bible never speaks about being born again of water.
But it does speak about being born again: 1Pet.1:18-23
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
We are redeemed with the blood of Christ (Verse 19), born again by the Word of God (verse 23).
By Him (Christ), our faith and hope is in God (verse 21).
DHK
"Love will last forever, but prophecyand speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of propehcy reveals little! But when the END comes, these special gifts will all disappear." I Corinthians 13:8-10.
Then in Chapter 14 Paul writes: "Let love be your highest goal, but also DESIRE the Special abilities the SPIRIT GIVES, especially the gift of prophecy. For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, YOU WILL BE TALKING TO GOD BUT NOT TO PEOPLE, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, BUT IT WILL ALL BE MYSTERIOUS, But one who prophesies is helping others grow in the Lord, encouring and comforting them. A person who speaks in tongues is STRENGTHENED PERSONALLY IN THE LORD, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
I WISH YOU ALL HAD THE FIT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES, but even more I wish you were able to prophecy.
Then he wrote: FOR IF I PRAY IN TONGUES, MY SPIRIT IS PRAYING, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. Well, then what shall I do? I will do both. I will PRAY IN THE SPIRIT, and I will pray in words I understand, I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will sing in words I understand.
This seems to contradict what Paul said that Tongues is not a sign to a believer but to the unbeliever but if you understand about tongues period there is no confusion. Tongues are a sign to the unbeliever. The supernatural manifestation shows the unbeliever the presence of God is in the place.
Also to those who said that there is no such thing as praying in the spirit the scriptures contradict you. Paul made it very clear that he prayed in the spirit and that was praying in tongues.
There are so many various beliefs amongst Pentecostals. The group MEE belongs to believes you have to be filled with the Holy Ghost, speak in tongues and be baptized in Jesus name for salvation. They also teach a works/salvation doctrine that Holiness Standards of dress is part of the salvation equation. Then there are those who believe that a person can be saved by believing on Jesus and repenting of their sins
but can choose to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without it be a requirement for salvation. They believe when you are saved through believing the spirit of God comes upon you like the Kings and prophets and priests of the Old Testament. The spirit dwells upon you but not in you. When you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with evidence by speaking in tongues the spirit now resides in you. This is a gift God gives you to help you overcome sin and to have power for witnessing etc.
It has been a proven fact that those who believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost live a deeper and closer walk with God. Why is this? It is obvious a supernatural thing. No these people are not perfect and they sin and make mistakes but yet their lives seem more Godly then others.
Many who don't believe in OSAS have similar beliefs but they do believe a person can decide to quit serving God. They don't believe that God forces people to live for him as many believe.
As far as worrying what sin would cause you to lose your salvation the Bible says we have a mediator and a High priest. This is why a true Christian asks forgiveness throughout the day. The spirit of God convicts us when we sin so no one can say they have an excuse not to ask forgiveness. What does it take to say Please forgive me Lord. A second or two.
YOu can argue about tongues but what I wrote was from the scriptures. These things will cease when the End comes. There is a thing called Praying in Tongues. If people who don't understand this subject would listen instead of shoving man made doctrines down peoples throats they might understand that there is different kinds of tongues.
Paul said let everything be done in decency and in order so there are a lot of charismatic churches out there that are totally out of order.
Paul did not promote a bunch of people sitting around chattering in tongues like monkeys. The gift of tongues is when a person gives a message in tongues and a second person interprets that message. That message is to be judged against the word. If it is not Biblical then it should be judged as such. There are no new revelations or new messages from Heaven. The tongues a person manifests when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a one time evidencial thing.
Then as Paul said there are tongues when someone prays. This is the spirit speaking expressly to God. Mysteries as Paul said.
Then in Chapter 14 Paul writes: "Let love be your highest goal, but also DESIRE the Special abilities the SPIRIT GIVES, especially the gift of prophecy. For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, YOU WILL BE TALKING TO GOD BUT NOT TO PEOPLE, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, BUT IT WILL ALL BE MYSTERIOUS, But one who prophesies is helping others grow in the Lord, encouring and comforting them. A person who speaks in tongues is STRENGTHENED PERSONALLY IN THE LORD, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
I WISH YOU ALL HAD THE FIT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES, but even more I wish you were able to prophecy.
Then he wrote: FOR IF I PRAY IN TONGUES, MY SPIRIT IS PRAYING, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. Well, then what shall I do? I will do both. I will PRAY IN THE SPIRIT, and I will pray in words I understand, I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will sing in words I understand.
This seems to contradict what Paul said that Tongues is not a sign to a believer but to the unbeliever but if you understand about tongues period there is no confusion. Tongues are a sign to the unbeliever. The supernatural manifestation shows the unbeliever the presence of God is in the place.
Also to those who said that there is no such thing as praying in the spirit the scriptures contradict you. Paul made it very clear that he prayed in the spirit and that was praying in tongues.
There are so many various beliefs amongst Pentecostals. The group MEE belongs to believes you have to be filled with the Holy Ghost, speak in tongues and be baptized in Jesus name for salvation. They also teach a works/salvation doctrine that Holiness Standards of dress is part of the salvation equation. Then there are those who believe that a person can be saved by believing on Jesus and repenting of their sins
but can choose to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without it be a requirement for salvation. They believe when you are saved through believing the spirit of God comes upon you like the Kings and prophets and priests of the Old Testament. The spirit dwells upon you but not in you. When you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with evidence by speaking in tongues the spirit now resides in you. This is a gift God gives you to help you overcome sin and to have power for witnessing etc.
It has been a proven fact that those who believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost live a deeper and closer walk with God. Why is this? It is obvious a supernatural thing. No these people are not perfect and they sin and make mistakes but yet their lives seem more Godly then others.
Many who don't believe in OSAS have similar beliefs but they do believe a person can decide to quit serving God. They don't believe that God forces people to live for him as many believe.
As far as worrying what sin would cause you to lose your salvation the Bible says we have a mediator and a High priest. This is why a true Christian asks forgiveness throughout the day. The spirit of God convicts us when we sin so no one can say they have an excuse not to ask forgiveness. What does it take to say Please forgive me Lord. A second or two.
YOu can argue about tongues but what I wrote was from the scriptures. These things will cease when the End comes. There is a thing called Praying in Tongues. If people who don't understand this subject would listen instead of shoving man made doctrines down peoples throats they might understand that there is different kinds of tongues.
Paul said let everything be done in decency and in order so there are a lot of charismatic churches out there that are totally out of order.
Paul did not promote a bunch of people sitting around chattering in tongues like monkeys. The gift of tongues is when a person gives a message in tongues and a second person interprets that message. That message is to be judged against the word. If it is not Biblical then it should be judged as such. There are no new revelations or new messages from Heaven. The tongues a person manifests when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a one time evidencial thing.
Then as Paul said there are tongues when someone prays. This is the spirit speaking expressly to God. Mysteries as Paul said.
Where did you quote this from, hrhema? It wasn't from a translation of the Bible was it? It was probably a paraphrase, which is only one man's opinion of what the Bible says. If that be so, his opinion is of no greater value than mine.
Then in Chapter 14 Paul writes: "Let love be your highest goal, but also DESIRE the Special abilities the SPIRIT GIVES, especially the gift of prophecy. For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, YOU WILL BE TALKING TO GOD BUT NOT TO PEOPLE, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, BUT IT WILL ALL BE MYSTERIOUS, But one who prophesies is helping others grow in the Lord, encouring and comforting them. A person who speaks in tongues is STRENGTHENED PERSONALLY IN THE LORD, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
---The contrast throughout this chapter is a contrast of understanding and not understanding. With the prophetic gift the people were able to be taught and edified. With the gift of tongues they were not. No one could understand them. What is given here is a rebuke. Tongues was never given as a personal gift, but a gift to edify the church. But Paul, rebuking them says, you are just strengthening yourself; you are using your gift selfishly. But one who prophecies strengthens the entire church. It was a rebuke, rhema, not an encouragement to speak in tongues.
I WISH YOU ALL HAD THE FIT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES, but even more I wish you were able to prophecy.
---Again this is a rebuke, but in a loving way. He only wished the best for the believers at Corinth. He is saying I wish you could have everything--all the spiritual gifts, that all of you could speak in tongues. But rather (as the KJV accurately translates it) that you would prophecy. He is not contradicting what he previously said. Previously he already said in chapter 12 there is a diversity of gifts. Some have one gift and some another. Not all speak in tongues. In this verse there is a note of sarcasm. I wish you could all speak in tongues--NOT! But rather that you prophecy. He does not contradict what he said in chapter 12. There is a note of sarcasm here.
Then he wrote: FOR IF I PRAY IN TONGUES, MY SPIRIT IS PRAYING, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. Well, then what shall I do? I will do both. I will PRAY IN THE SPIRIT, and I will pray in words I understand, I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will sing in words I understand.
---There is no contradiction here. He is simply saying, if I use my gift of speaking in tongues selfishly, no one understands me. That is not what it is meant for. It was never meant to be a prayer language. Praying in the Spirit is not speaking tongues. He does not equate the two. He does things that the people of Corinth can understand.
This seems to contradict what Paul said that Tongues is not a sign to a believer but to the unbeliever but if you understand about tongues period there is no confusion. Tongues are a sign to the unbeliever. The supernatural manifestation shows the unbeliever the presence of God is in the place.
---No, tongues are a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Read verses 21 and 22.
Also to those who said that there is no such thing as praying in the spirit the scriptures contradict you. Paul made it very clear that he prayed in the spirit and that was praying in tongues.
---He made no such statement. Again, get a valid translation, not one man's opinion of what the Bible says. Here is what verse 14 says:
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
---You have it backwards. Paul said that if he prayed in an unknown language, his spirit prayed also. The two are not identical. If I were praying in Hindi, I hope that my Spirit would also be praying. He goes on to say that his understanding is unfruitful. It is unfruitful because he doesn't understand what is being said. I have been on the mission field where I didn't understand the language. When the people prayed, I could pray in my Spirit. But I could not understand what they prayed. It was in an unknown tongue as far as I was concerned. My understanding of it was unfruitful.
There are so many various beliefs amongst Pentecostals.
---You're right. And they all believe in a "Second Blessing," whether or not it is a requirement to salvation, it is a false doctrine. And in order to get this "Second Blessing" you must speak in tongues.
"It has been a proven fact that those who believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost live a deeper and closer walk with God. Why is this? It is obvious a supernatural thing. No these people are not perfect and they sin and make mistakes but yet their lives seem more Godly then others."
---We also believe that one must be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is a command of God. But it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. Tongues have ceased.
YOu can argue about tongues but what I wrote was from the scriptures. These things will cease when the End comes. There is a thing called Praying in Tongues. If people who don't understand this subject would listen instead of shoving man made doctrines down peoples throats they might understand that there is different kinds of tongues.
---Like I said at the beginning, I don't believe you quoted Scripture. That is not what the Scripture says. It is what a paraphrase, or one man's opinion of what the Scripture says. If people who don't understand this subject would listen to the Word of God instead of shoving man made doctrines down peoples throats they might understand that tongues have ceased, and the tongues spoken today is mere gibberish and not even Biblical.
"Paul said let everything be done in decency and in order so there are a lot of charismatic churches out there that are totally out of order."
---That's one mark against the Charismatic movement right there.
"Paul did not promote a bunch of people sitting around chattering in tongues like monkeys. The gift of tongues is when a person gives a message in tongues and a second person interprets that message. That message is to be judged against the word. If it is not Biblical then it should be judged as such. There are no new revelations or new messages from Heaven. The tongues a person manifests when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a one time evidencial thing."
---If there are no new messages or revelations from Heaven, then tongues are not for today. That was precisely the function of this gift.
Then as Paul said there are tongues when someone prays. This is the spirit speaking expressly to God. Mysteries as Paul said.
---Mysteries when no interprets. If no one interprets, Paul said to SHUT UP!!
DHK
[ July 02, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
What I wrote was from a Translation of the Bible.
Paul was not giving a rebuke but he was teaching about the gifts of the Spirit. There is absolutely no proof Paul was talking about the Bible when he said that which was perfect would bring cessation. That is your belief but it cannot be proven by scripture. This is nothing but individuals trying to defend doctrine they cannot prove.
You don't understand the gifts of the Spirit therefore you try to twist scriptures to fit your beliefs but all translations including the KJV is on the side of the truth.
So many Baptist get all caught up in trying to defeat the supernatural that they will one day find themselves as Gamaliel told the Pharisees fighting against God.
DHK you are a defender of Campbellism. The same belief as the Church of Christ. It is very strange that many Baptist will defend his teaching in one area but refuse to accept all of his teachings which include salvation by works and re-generational baptism.
Charismatic fanatics are not the epitome of Pentecostals. Their excesses and wildfire is not of God. Their chattering like monkeys in tongues is not of God. Their braying like mules and barking like Dogs is Satanic and not of God.
THis pointing of the fingers and people falling over is not God. The howling with laughter and other excesses are not from God. No real Pentecostal accepts these things and abhor them.
Praying in tongues is a private matter between the individual and God. Tongues and interpretation is when God chooses to speak to his people. No there are no revelations or new doctrines but God can reveal the inner parts of mens thoughts and hearts which brings the unbeliever to Christ. The same as prophecy.
There are those who say prophecy is preaching the word but that is so ludicrous. Prophecy is when the Spirit of God moves on someone to reveal future events that have not happened. Such as when Agabus prophesied about the Storm Euclydon and that Paul would be bound in Jerusalem.
Paul was not giving a rebuke but he was teaching about the gifts of the Spirit. There is absolutely no proof Paul was talking about the Bible when he said that which was perfect would bring cessation. That is your belief but it cannot be proven by scripture. This is nothing but individuals trying to defend doctrine they cannot prove.
You don't understand the gifts of the Spirit therefore you try to twist scriptures to fit your beliefs but all translations including the KJV is on the side of the truth.
So many Baptist get all caught up in trying to defeat the supernatural that they will one day find themselves as Gamaliel told the Pharisees fighting against God.
DHK you are a defender of Campbellism. The same belief as the Church of Christ. It is very strange that many Baptist will defend his teaching in one area but refuse to accept all of his teachings which include salvation by works and re-generational baptism.
Charismatic fanatics are not the epitome of Pentecostals. Their excesses and wildfire is not of God. Their chattering like monkeys in tongues is not of God. Their braying like mules and barking like Dogs is Satanic and not of God.
THis pointing of the fingers and people falling over is not God. The howling with laughter and other excesses are not from God. No real Pentecostal accepts these things and abhor them.
Praying in tongues is a private matter between the individual and God. Tongues and interpretation is when God chooses to speak to his people. No there are no revelations or new doctrines but God can reveal the inner parts of mens thoughts and hearts which brings the unbeliever to Christ. The same as prophecy.
There are those who say prophecy is preaching the word but that is so ludicrous. Prophecy is when the Spirit of God moves on someone to reveal future events that have not happened. Such as when Agabus prophesied about the Storm Euclydon and that Paul would be bound in Jerusalem.
Whatever this is hrhema, it is NOT a translation:
"Love will last forever, but prophecyand speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of propehcy reveals little! But when the END comes, these special gifts will all disappear." I Corinthians 13:8-10.
There are words left out, mistranslated. It is not even a good paraphrase. If you have to change the Word of God (like the J.W.'s do) in order to justify your doctrine, that's pretty sad. Use either the KJV or deal directly from the Greek. Don't pervert the Word of God, and change it just to fit your own theology.
DHK
"Paul was not giving a rebuke but he was teaching about the gifts of the Spirit. There is absolutely no proof Paul was talking about the Bible when he said that which was perfect would bring cessation. That is your belief but it cannot be proven by scripture. This is nothing but individuals trying to defend doctrine they cannot prove."
---If you study 1Cor.13:8-13, objectively, you will find that it is talking about revelation, God's revelation to mankind. In that context he says that the revelatory gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease (vs.8). They will cease when that which is perfect (the Word of God) will come. Then that which is in part (those temporary gifts of the spirit) will be done away. They will no longer be needed, for the Word of God will be completed. That happened at the end of the first century with the completion of the Book of Revelation.
"You don't understand the gifts of the Spirit therefore you try to twist scriptures to fit your beliefs but all translations including the KJV is on the side of the truth."
---I understand the gifts of the Spirit more than you think. They are fraudulent, of Satan, ceased at the end of the first century, are now counterfeited by Satan, and well-meaning people are easily deluded and gullible because they don't know their Bible well enough.
"So many Baptist get all caught up in trying to defeat the supernatural that they will one day find themselves as Gamaliel told the Pharisees fighting against God."
---I believe in the supernatural. I believe in a God that answers prayer. I also believe in a God that acts in accordance with His Word. He does not lie. Tongues have ceased.
"DHK you are a defender of Campbellism. The same belief as the Church of Christ. It is very strange that many Baptist will defend his teaching in one area but refuse to accept all of his teachings which include salvation by works and re-generational baptism."
---Now you are making slanderous accusations, and if you have been reading any of the other posts at all, know very well that I have been confronting the Cambellites that are on this board.
"Charismatic fanatics are not the epitome of Pentecostals. Their excesses and wildfire is not of God. Their chattering like monkeys in tongues is not of God. Their braying like mules and barking like Dogs is Satanic and not of God. THis pointing of the fingers and people falling over is not God. The howling with laughter and other excesses are not from God. No real Pentecostal accepts these things and abhor them."
---I am glad you can see at least this. But it all started with the Pentecostal movement. The common thread running through it all is speaking in tongues. I know quite a bit of the history: the first wave, the Pentecostals; the second wave, the Charismatics; the third wave, the Word Faith movement primarily. With much excess or little, it matters not, it still is not of God.
"Praying in tongues is a private matter between the individual and God."
That is a totally unscriptural statement which cannot be backed up by Scripture. Tongues was never meant to be a private matter. It was a gift given to the local church, for the edification of the local church. To use it selfishly or privately was wrong and unscriptural. Paul rebuked them for such abuses.
" Tongues and interpretation is when God chooses to speak to his people. No there are no revelations or new doctrines but God can reveal the inner parts of mens thoughts and hearts which brings the unbeliever to Christ."
---The problem is twofold. First you don't speak in Biblical tongues. You don't speak real known languages; you speak gibberish. Study Acts 2. They were known languages that were spoken-- unknown to the speaker, but known to at least one or more of the hearers. Thus the need for an interpreter--they were not known to all. That is the second problem you have. You violate Scripture in that every time you speak in tongues you do not have an interpreter, do you? If you do, what language does he translate from, and what language does he translate into, and for whose benefit?
Another problem is that there are no unsaved Jews present are there (see 1Cor.14:21,22). The biggest problem you may run into if I am guessing right is in 1Cor.14:34,35--"Let the women keep silence in the churches; it is not permitted for them to speak." That is in the context of tongues, specifically of tongues.
Thus God does not choose to speak to his people today through tongues.
"There are those who say prophecy is preaching the word but that is so ludicrous. Prophecy is when the Spirit of God moves on someone to reveal future events that have not happened. Such as when Agabus prophesied about the Storm Euclydon and that Paul would be bound in Jerusalem."
---That gift also has ceased. Any one that says they can predict the future is a fraud or of Satan.
DHK
---If you study 1Cor.13:8-13, objectively, you will find that it is talking about revelation, God's revelation to mankind. In that context he says that the revelatory gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease (vs.8). They will cease when that which is perfect (the Word of God) will come. Then that which is in part (those temporary gifts of the spirit) will be done away. They will no longer be needed, for the Word of God will be completed. That happened at the end of the first century with the completion of the Book of Revelation.
"You don't understand the gifts of the Spirit therefore you try to twist scriptures to fit your beliefs but all translations including the KJV is on the side of the truth."
---I understand the gifts of the Spirit more than you think. They are fraudulent, of Satan, ceased at the end of the first century, are now counterfeited by Satan, and well-meaning people are easily deluded and gullible because they don't know their Bible well enough.
"So many Baptist get all caught up in trying to defeat the supernatural that they will one day find themselves as Gamaliel told the Pharisees fighting against God."
---I believe in the supernatural. I believe in a God that answers prayer. I also believe in a God that acts in accordance with His Word. He does not lie. Tongues have ceased.
"DHK you are a defender of Campbellism. The same belief as the Church of Christ. It is very strange that many Baptist will defend his teaching in one area but refuse to accept all of his teachings which include salvation by works and re-generational baptism."
---Now you are making slanderous accusations, and if you have been reading any of the other posts at all, know very well that I have been confronting the Cambellites that are on this board.
"Charismatic fanatics are not the epitome of Pentecostals. Their excesses and wildfire is not of God. Their chattering like monkeys in tongues is not of God. Their braying like mules and barking like Dogs is Satanic and not of God. THis pointing of the fingers and people falling over is not God. The howling with laughter and other excesses are not from God. No real Pentecostal accepts these things and abhor them."
---I am glad you can see at least this. But it all started with the Pentecostal movement. The common thread running through it all is speaking in tongues. I know quite a bit of the history: the first wave, the Pentecostals; the second wave, the Charismatics; the third wave, the Word Faith movement primarily. With much excess or little, it matters not, it still is not of God.
"Praying in tongues is a private matter between the individual and God."
That is a totally unscriptural statement which cannot be backed up by Scripture. Tongues was never meant to be a private matter. It was a gift given to the local church, for the edification of the local church. To use it selfishly or privately was wrong and unscriptural. Paul rebuked them for such abuses.
" Tongues and interpretation is when God chooses to speak to his people. No there are no revelations or new doctrines but God can reveal the inner parts of mens thoughts and hearts which brings the unbeliever to Christ."
---The problem is twofold. First you don't speak in Biblical tongues. You don't speak real known languages; you speak gibberish. Study Acts 2. They were known languages that were spoken-- unknown to the speaker, but known to at least one or more of the hearers. Thus the need for an interpreter--they were not known to all. That is the second problem you have. You violate Scripture in that every time you speak in tongues you do not have an interpreter, do you? If you do, what language does he translate from, and what language does he translate into, and for whose benefit?
Another problem is that there are no unsaved Jews present are there (see 1Cor.14:21,22). The biggest problem you may run into if I am guessing right is in 1Cor.14:34,35--"Let the women keep silence in the churches; it is not permitted for them to speak." That is in the context of tongues, specifically of tongues.
Thus God does not choose to speak to his people today through tongues.
"There are those who say prophecy is preaching the word but that is so ludicrous. Prophecy is when the Spirit of God moves on someone to reveal future events that have not happened. Such as when Agabus prophesied about the Storm Euclydon and that Paul would be bound in Jerusalem."
---That gift also has ceased. Any one that says they can predict the future is a fraud or of Satan.
DHK
OK, I'm going to try this just ONE MORE TIME.
In answer to the claim that keeps being made that I Corinthians 13 says that tongues will only cease when the 'perfect' comes, here is what I have earlier posted in the other two recent tongues threads. PLEASE, try to pay attention this time.
Paul wrote these words carefully, employing different terms and different verb forms to describe the different ending points of the gifts. I Corinthians 13 not only does NOT teach that tongues will only end when the 'perfect' comes, it specifically teaches a DIFFERENT ending point for tongues than for knowledge and prophecy.
While DHK and I agree that the true gift of tongues is long gone, we disagree about this particular matter. I believe the more careful analysis of the text supports what I believe, and is a more complete rebuttal of the 'tongues' speakers' self-serving misinterpretation of this important passage.
And now I agree: let this discussion end. I'm NOT calling for the thread to be closed (since I promised I wouldn't), but we've said about all there is to say about the subject, to the point that the arguments have become repetitive. Besides which, obviously neither side is going to budge. So let's all just move on. The rest of you may feel free to make closing statements, but I will post here no more unless something I have written is twisted in a future post and must be corrected. I hope this will not occur.
Thanks to everyone on both sides for taking the time to share your knowledge and opinions.
In answer to the claim that keeps being made that I Corinthians 13 says that tongues will only cease when the 'perfect' comes, here is what I have earlier posted in the other two recent tongues threads. PLEASE, try to pay attention this time.
Now let's look carefully at the entire three verse passage:
In verse 8, three gifts are mentioned. One of them, tongues, is referred to differently from the other two, specifically indicating a DIFFERENT MANNER OF ENDING from the other two gifts (see above). When we get to verse 9, that different gift is no longer mentioned. Only the two gifts whose endings are referred to in an IDENTICAL manner in verse 8 appear in verses 9 and 10. This clearly indicates 1) that the manner of ending discussed in verses 9-10 for prophecy and knowledge does NOT apply to the gift of tongues; and 2) that the gift of tongues will end BEFORE the other two gifts.
Paul wrote these words carefully, employing different terms and different verb forms to describe the different ending points of the gifts. I Corinthians 13 not only does NOT teach that tongues will only end when the 'perfect' comes, it specifically teaches a DIFFERENT ending point for tongues than for knowledge and prophecy.
While DHK and I agree that the true gift of tongues is long gone, we disagree about this particular matter. I believe the more careful analysis of the text supports what I believe, and is a more complete rebuttal of the 'tongues' speakers' self-serving misinterpretation of this important passage.
And now I agree: let this discussion end. I'm NOT calling for the thread to be closed (since I promised I wouldn't), but we've said about all there is to say about the subject, to the point that the arguments have become repetitive. Besides which, obviously neither side is going to budge. So let's all just move on. The rest of you may feel free to make closing statements, but I will post here no more unless something I have written is twisted in a future post and must be corrected. I hope this will not occur.
Thanks to everyone on both sides for taking the time to share your knowledge and opinions.
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
MEE~Here's a few notes from preachers I wrote down thru' the years: 'That which is perfect'=the Word of God; look to James1:25(KJV)"perfect" law of liberty"-hearers & doers, talking about the Word. Paul used it("perfect"-being complete or mature), in context of speaking in tongues(ICor.14:20)KJV. "That" is neuter; "perfect" refers to something that has grown to reach its perfect state. It couldn't be the Lord Jesus Christ because He is the eternally perfect God.
The "Bible", however is the RESULT of progressive revelation. It became more "perfect" with the writing of each book and it finally became COMPLETELY "perfect" with the writing of the book of Revelation.
He who can take what God says in His Word, without needing SIGNS, is more mature than he who NEEDS a sign to PROVE his spirituality. Those who need a sign, DEMONSTRATE their spiritual IMMATURITY(Matt.12:38)KJV. They follow "another' spirit. The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself John16:13(KJV). God does not fill us with the Spirit to entertain us. Outward signs & symbols are for the benefit of men. God is much more interested in the condition of men's hearts. 1Sam.16:7(KJV)
I also have written down that Heb.2:3-4(KJV) gives a clear demonstration that the special sign gifts have passed away: "first began"; "was confirmed"-past tense; unto "us"-readers; by "them"-apostles; bearing "them"-apostles.
There's a lot of false doctrine abounding & false Bible "versions" are even more. The devil can get around God's Word & if he can't destroy God's Word, then he will just destroy the testimony of the Believer, as in Patrick's case. If only we'd had a preacher like the old-fashioned KJBible preaching Baptists of yesteryear, I don't think our son would have gotten 'caught-up' & I know without a doubt, he would never have been 'encouraged' to venture off to those erroneous teachings.
The one thing, tho', that amazes me is how Pentecostals, who do not even have assurance of their salvation, can shout about something they don't even know for sure they have & some Baptists have it, can't lose it, & won't even crack a smile over it, let alone shout! I think most Baptists have become so fearful of the modern day Pentecostal-wildfire that they will have nothing to do with God's fire. (We have let those heretics steal our shout). And some have even branded themselves "Bapticostals" to justify something? My salvation is solid & fresh as the day it was nearly 50yrs. ago & the REAL Holy Ghost lives in me to guide me through my journey on this earth. Each day I ask for a filling of the Spirit to conquer my battles & I have NEVER once regretted being saved, living saved, staying saved & I am having the most glorious time of my life! I pray you will be served & blessed by this.
The "Bible", however is the RESULT of progressive revelation. It became more "perfect" with the writing of each book and it finally became COMPLETELY "perfect" with the writing of the book of Revelation.
He who can take what God says in His Word, without needing SIGNS, is more mature than he who NEEDS a sign to PROVE his spirituality. Those who need a sign, DEMONSTRATE their spiritual IMMATURITY(Matt.12:38)KJV. They follow "another' spirit. The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself John16:13(KJV). God does not fill us with the Spirit to entertain us. Outward signs & symbols are for the benefit of men. God is much more interested in the condition of men's hearts. 1Sam.16:7(KJV)
I also have written down that Heb.2:3-4(KJV) gives a clear demonstration that the special sign gifts have passed away: "first began"; "was confirmed"-past tense; unto "us"-readers; by "them"-apostles; bearing "them"-apostles.
There's a lot of false doctrine abounding & false Bible "versions" are even more. The devil can get around God's Word & if he can't destroy God's Word, then he will just destroy the testimony of the Believer, as in Patrick's case. If only we'd had a preacher like the old-fashioned KJBible preaching Baptists of yesteryear, I don't think our son would have gotten 'caught-up' & I know without a doubt, he would never have been 'encouraged' to venture off to those erroneous teachings.
The one thing, tho', that amazes me is how Pentecostals, who do not even have assurance of their salvation, can shout about something they don't even know for sure they have & some Baptists have it, can't lose it, & won't even crack a smile over it, let alone shout! I think most Baptists have become so fearful of the modern day Pentecostal-wildfire that they will have nothing to do with God's fire. (We have let those heretics steal our shout). And some have even branded themselves "Bapticostals" to justify something? My salvation is solid & fresh as the day it was nearly 50yrs. ago & the REAL Holy Ghost lives in me to guide me through my journey on this earth. Each day I ask for a filling of the Spirit to conquer my battles & I have NEVER once regretted being saved, living saved, staying saved & I am having the most glorious time of my life! I pray you will be served & blessed by this.
Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
The one thing, tho', that amazes me is how Pentecostals, who do not even have assurance of their salvation, can shout about something they don't even know for sure they have & some Baptists have it, can't lose it, & won't even crack a smile over it, let alone shout! I think most Baptists have become so fearful of the modern day Pentecostal-wildfire that they will have nothing to do with God's fire. (We have let those heretics steal our shout). And some have even branded themselves "Bapticostals" to justify something?
Don't even know for sure what we have?
Baptist have it, can't lose it, and won't even crack a smile over it, let alone shout! Granny this should raise a "red flag" in your mind. Think about it!
BTW, I'll just pretend that you didn't call me a heretic.
MEE