Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Now, let's rewind a bit and look at a previous statement:

Time Index 03:48 - 03:57 -- "... So basically the prophecy is this. That, after about 7 [on screen words coming out of the speaker George Antonios, reads "7 years after the resumption of temple sacrifices"] years. Jesus Christ returns and he cleanses the Temple and he builds a new Temple. ..."

First of all, I have an honest question for br. George Antonios, based upon his statement (highlighted, last part of the quotation).

Question: Your question assumes a 'third' temple to be built in earthly Jerusalem in the middle 'east', and have Jesus return from Heaven to "cleanse" it, yes?, and then to "build a new Temple", yes? If Jesus, according to your scenario, returns to "cleanse" a temple, why build another one, when the previous that is in your scenario is "cleansed"? What is the purpose of building a new one, and vice-verse, what is the point of cleansing an old one, if he is simply going to build a new one?

I acknowledge a third temple, and have already provided many verses about it, here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

Another question, then to you br. George Antonios, Do you personally acknowledge that the people of God, iow - Christians, as a Temple in the NT? If so, by my count, then that is 3 Temples, with Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone (1 Peter 2:6).

Truth:

[1] Solomon's Temple; 1 Kings 8

[2] 2nd Temple (Ezra, Nehemiah, etc); Matthew 12:6

[3] Body of Christ (Ezekiel)

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Yet, what they (futurists of Jesuitism) see is this:

[1] Solomon's Temple; 1 Kings 8

[2] 2nd Temple (Ezra, Nehemiah, etc); Matthew 12:6

[intercalation of Christians, as a temple, but not really the third, but a third, but not really, no really ...]

[3] some imaginary unbelieving Ashkenazic, Sephardic 'Jew' (not even the same ancestry as what exists in the OT and NT) built structure in modern day Judea.

This means that the people of God, have been without a temple for the last 2000 years., and what Paul said about "we have an altar" was wrong:

Heb_13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

How do you address this in your scenario br. George Antonios?

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Let's look at the same quotation again with the following:

Time Index 02:47 - 03:28 -- "... So, but during ~ basically almost 7 years, the uh~, Israel is in desolation. Israel ~ the Anti-Christ is ruling over the world. And that's what Daniel is talking about. It's a future thing. It hasn't happened yet. Look in chapter 8 [of Daniel] verse 13. He says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint ("saint", italics) which spake, How long shall be ("shall be", italics) the vision concerning ("concerning", italics) the daily sacrifice ("sacrifice", italics), ..." So for how long is the daily sacrifice back on. "... and the transgression of desolation, ..." So how long is it [daily sacrifice] taken away? "... to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? ..." Because that's the second half during which Jerusalem [earthly] is trodden by the Gentile armies and the sa~, the Anti-Christ takes away the sacrifice. ..."

Time Index 03:48 - 03:57 -- "... So basically the prophecy is this. That, after about 7 [on screen words coming out of the speaker George Antonios, reads "7 years after the resumption of temple sacrifices"] years. Jesus Christ returns and he cleanses the Temple and he builds a new Temple. ..."

Time Index 03:57 - 04:05 -- "... He [Jesus] cleanses the Temple because he kicks out the Anti-Christ. Now most Bible ~ the crushing majority of prophecy, uh, students understand that. ..."

Look at Daniel 9's prophecy, which we have already shown to be connected in context to Daniel 8.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

This is given in actual events by Jesus Himself.

[1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon Jesus begins His 3 1/2 years.
[2] Works miracles, etc
[3] persecuted
[4] face glows, soldiers fall back
[5] arrested
[6] brought before Sanhedrin
[7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
[8] martyred outside

This pattern is followed in the lives of the Apostles/disciples, from Pentecost, thus we come to Stephen:

[1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon them, begins the latter 3 1/2 years.
[2] work miracles, etc
[3] persectued
[4] arrested
[5] brought before sanhedrin
[6] face glows (as an angel), sanhedrin amazed
[7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
[8] martyred outside

Yes, if you read Acts carefully, you can see the time passing. There are also other parallels, such as between Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus and Gamaliel interfering. Disputings with Christ and with Stephen. False witnesses with Christ and with Stephen.

The Sanhedrin was the chief law in the land. The rejected the Head, but had not yet the body in full, and when they rejected Stephen, the body also was rejected, and they brought upon themselves their own destruction.

Jesus was seen "standing" in Acts 7. This was their end. See also parallels in Daniel 12:1 and Luke 13:25. When Jesus stands, it is the close of their allotted time, which was 490 years, even as Jesus told Peter in Matthew 18:22.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Let's look at the same quotation again with the following:

Time Index 02:47 - 03:28 -- previously cited
Time Index 03:48 - 03:57 -- previously cited
Time Index 03:57 - 04:05 -- previously cited

STAND UP

Do a study on "stand up", "arise", "lift up", in connection with God standing, as already given you, Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25. It is the finality of mercy's probation, and the stepping in of judgment.

Psa_3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
Psa_7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
Psa_9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Psa_10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
Psa_12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
Psa_17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
Psa_44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Psa_44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.
Psa_68:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
Psa_74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
Psa_82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Psa_102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
Psa_132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.

Psa_94:2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

Amo_9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

Act_7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act_7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS

Everlasting righteousness began with Jesus.

Jesus/Michael stood up in AD 34 [Acts 7:55-56], the end of the 70 weeks, in Daniel 9, and thus the close of the probation of the Jews as a nation, the sanhedrin, having rejected the Head and the body. He will so stand again [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11, etc]

AD 27 + 3 1/2 = AD 31; crucifixion. The first of the final week of the 70 weeks, as Jesus told Peter [Matthew 18:22]

AD 31 + 3 1/2 = AD 34; Stephen martyred. End of the 70 weeks, as we see in Hebrews 2:3

Parallels [the short version, two rainbows]:

Jesus in AD 27 Anointed with the Holy Ghost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, taken captive AD 31, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside the city

Disciples/Apostles in AD 31 anointed with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, Stephen is taken captive AD 34, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside of the city.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Through Christ Jesus, it is the end of sin, He brought in everlasting righteousness, reconciliation, etc.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Victory began with Jesus, and He went forth conquering and to conquer (Revelation 6:2) - undefeatable. The Last Week of Daniel 9 (7 years, the last 7 years of the 490 years) is already long past. And that was merely a 'portion' (determined upon the Jews), of the much larger 2,300. The 1,260, 1,290, 1335, 70 weeks, 5 months (Rev.), 3 1/2 days, 10 days, etc are all a small portion of the 2,300, the longest time prophecy in scripture.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Again, about the Daniel 9 connection and meaning, as has been demonstrated the 70 weeks (490 years) are merely the first portion of the 2,300 of Daniel 8, and as the one signifies years, so too the great from which it is segmented.

Time Index 02:47 - 03:28 -- "... So, but during ~ basically almost 7 years, the uh~, Israel is in desolation. Israel ~ the Anti-Christ is ruling over the world. And that's what Daniel is talking about. It's a future thing. It hasn't happened yet. Look in chapter 8 [of Daniel] verse 13. He says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint ("saint", italics) which spake, How long shall be ("shall be", italics) the vision concerning ("concerning", italics) the daily sacrifice ("sacrifice", italics), ..." So for how long is the daily sacrifice back on. "... and the transgression of desolation, ..." So how long is it [daily sacrifice] taken away? "... to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? ..." Because that's the second half during which Jerusalem [earthly] is trodden by the Gentile armies and the sa~, the Anti-Christ takes away the sacrifice. ..."

Dan 9:26 KJB - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:26 HOT - ואחרי השׁבעים שׁשׁים ושׁנים יכרת משׁיח ואין לו והעיר והקדשׁ ישׁחית עם נגיד הבא וקצו בשׁטף ועד קץ מלחמה נחרצת שׁממות׃

Dan 9:26 HOT Str#/wRMAC - ואחריH310 השׁבעיםH7620 שׁשׁיםH8346 ושׁניםH8147 יכרתH3772 משׁיחH4899 ואיןH369 לו והעירH5892 והקדשׁH6944 ישׁחיתH7843 עםH5971 נגידH5057 הבאH935 וקצוH7093 בשׁטףH7858 ועדH5704 קץH7093 מלחמהH4421 נחרצתH2782

Dan 9:26 HOT translit. - w'achárëy haSHävuiym shiSHiym ûsh'nayim yiKärët mäshiyªch w'ëyn lô w'häiyr w'haQodesh yash'chiyt am nägiyd haBä w'qiTZô vaSHe†ef w'ad qëtz mil'chämäh nechéretzet shomëmôt

Even if one does not read Hebrew (which is unnecessary), but simply the English, carefully, and with the bible in mind in other places, which shed light upon these events, we can know for certain, that the "prince that shall come" was indeed Jesus Christ. How can we know from the English (KJB)?

[1] in Daniel 9:25, Jesus is called "Messiah the Prince" (משׁיח נגיד;
משׁיחH4899 נגידH5057; mäshiyªch nägiyd)

[2] in Daniel 9:26a, Jesus is again called "Messiah" (משׁיח; משׁיחH4899; mäshiyªch) and thus Daniel 9:26 is simply enlarging upon Daniel 9:25's "Messiah (a.) the Prince (b.)", when vs 26 says, "Messiah (a.) ... the prince (b.) that shall come ..."; in other words "the ruler" that was prophesied to be sent by God to rule all (Isaiah 9:6,7; Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:6).

[3] the word "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd) is only used for Jesus Christ the Messiah in all of Daniel, see Daniel 9:25,26, 11:22 ("prince of the covenant") as the anointed ruler thereof. Other examples in scripture of this are seen in the anointed kings of Israel (see 1 Samuel 25:30; 2 Samuel 6:21, 7:8; 1 Kings 1:35, 14:7, 16:2; 1 Chronicles 5:2, 11:2, 17:7, 28:4, 29:22; 2 Chronicles 6:5, 11:22), the anointed rulers of the priests (1 Chronicles 9:11,20, 12:27; 2 Chronicles 31:12,13, 35:8; Jeremiah 20:1; Nehemiah 11:11; or those associated, 1 Chronicles 26:24, 27:4), the leaders of the tribes of Israel (1 Chronicles 27:16), generals/captains over others (1 Chronicles 13:1; 2 Chronicles 11:11; Psalms 76:12), or as one like Job (Job 31:37). (There are a few rare instances in scripture where the word can be used in a general sense for any ruler or captain over others (Job 29:10), even an opposing ruler/s, captains (see 2 Chronicles 23:21; Ezekiel 28:2), but the context is always clear in these instances; and it can mean a few other things in rare instances (Proverbs 8:6)).

[4] Gabriel and Daniel (Daniel 10:20), under guidance of the Holy Ghost, when referring to a foreign power and its leadership thereof, as a 'prince' (such as in the case of Grecia), another word is used instead, which is (שׂר ;שׂר H8269; sar; which means 'ruler'), and thus the word, "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd)" in Daniel 9, in its own context and surrounding, is not a reference to the Roman ruler (Caesar) in Daniel 9, though the word "sar" can be applied.

[5] the entire context of Daniel 9 is the Messiah and His people,

[a.] Daniel 9:24a, "thy (Daniel's) people", the Israelites
[b.] Daniel 9:24b, "thy (Daniel's) holy city, earthly Jerusalem
[c.] Daniel 9:24c,d,e,f,g,h - dealing with the sins of the professed people of God and the ministration of the Great High Priest/Jesus and his work on earth and in Heaven.
[d.] Daniel 9:25a, "the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (found in Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28)
[e.] Daniel 9:25b, "Messiah the Prince" - Jesus Christ
[f.] Daniel 9:26a, "Messiah" - Jesus Christ
[g.] Daniel 9:26b, "the people of the prince" - Israelites
[h.] Daniel 9:26b, "of the prince that shall come" - Jesus, being ruler over "the people" sent of God, that was to "come"
[i.] Daniel 9:26c, "the city and the sanctuary" - earthly Jerusalem
[j.] Daniel 9:27a, "And he ..." - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to a Noun, context, Messiah the Prince, Messiah ... the prince that shall come)
[k.] Daniel 9:27b "confirm the covenant with many for one week" - Jesus confirms the New Covenant with the Apostles (Hebrews 2:3) for the first half of the week (3 1/2 years unto AD 31, His death) and then confirms with the rest of the people through His Apostles, for 3 1/2 more years, unto the stoning of Stephen (AD 34) and the rejection of it by the Sanhedrin, as they had done to Jesus.
[l.] Daniel 9:27c, "he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to the Noun, Messiah the Prince), did this by His death, and thus there are no more sacrifices for sins as Hebrews 10:26, etc, explains.
[m.] Daniel 9:27d, "he shall make it (earthly sanctuary) desolate" - Jesus (Pronoun pointing back to a Noun) leaves and does not return to earthly Jerusalem, neither to the earthly temple ever again, see Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35.

[6] there are previous examples given to us in scripture, and Daniel himself experienced one of them.

[a.] In the first destruction of Jerusalm and its Temple by Babylon and King Nebuchadnezzar, this very King is used by God to punish rebellious Israel, because they (the people) had rejected God, and so God withdrew, and allowed the city/temple to be destroyed. What brought the destruction? Israel's sins. Nebuchadnezzar is even called by God, "my servant" (Jeremiah 25:9).

[b.] In the events of Moses and the Israelites attempting to cross over into the promised land. Balak and Balaam came along, and could do nothing to affect them, that is until the people sinned, and so God withdrew His protection, and allowed destruction to come.

There are numerous examples of this in scripture, see the book of Judges, etc.

Therefore, the same events repeated, as per Ecclesiastes 1:9, 3:15; in that when "the people" (of God) rejected the "Messiah the Prince", the "Messiah ... the prince that shall come" (as promised by God), they actually destroyed their own city and temple, because they rejected the protection God offered in Christ Jesus. When Jesus said, "Your house is left unto you desolate", it was in exact fulfillment of Daniel as was the statement of Jesus in reference to the destruction (Matthew 23:36) that would be brought about by such rejection and refusal to repent of sin and accept Him, their Messiah, their rightful Prince.

Did the Roman armies actually destroy Jerusalem? Only in after effect (as the Babylonians), for if the Jewish leadership had accepted the Messiah their prince, no such destruction could have come, for God would have dwelt in it, and its sanctuary.

The entire context of Daniel 9, is about God's people, sin, deliverance and the Messiah.

Who destroyed the city? God's own professed people by their neglect and refusal. Even as the human city/temple may so be destroyed:

1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

More errors:

Time Index 05:16 - 06:10 -- "... And so he [William Miller] told everybody Jesus Christ is coming back in the year [AD] 1843 or [AD] 1844. And this gonna' ~ this video is gonna go and show you the dangers of misapplying prophecy, changing the words of the texts, and giving such dates. Giving such dates for the second advent. So, what happened? Well, what happened is that (heheh) [br. George Antonios briefly laughs] that the Lord [Jesus] did not come back in [AD] 1844 as you obviously know, because you are sitting here listening to this. Right? He [Jesus] didn't come back. When he [Jesus] didn't come back, that was, tha~, they kept on giving different dates. They [Millerites/Adventists] were saying, 'Ah maybe [AD] 1843.' Then they said, 'O, maybe it's, it's uh, [AD] 1844, sometime in March', I believe, or 'May.' I don't remember. Then they said, 'Oh, no, no, it's going to be in October.' And so when October [AD] 1844 came and went, October 23rd, that became known as the "Great Disappointment". They had the "Great Expectation", and the "Great Disappointment". Not surprisingly, because the Lord did not come back in [AD] 1844. [scene cuts] ..."

The first mistake, here, is that the date actually come to, was actually [AD] October 22nd 1844 [you can even view this on Wikipedia - Great Disappointment - Wikipedia ], and not the 23rd. It was October 22nd, 1844 that came and went, with the following morning (23rd) being a very 'hard' day for many of them, just as it had been with the disciples of Jesus, just after his crucifixion, death and burial. It was only later that light would come, and joy be restored in both cases, type and anti-type.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

More errors:

Time Index 05:16 - 06:10 -- "... And so he [William Miller] told everybody Jesus Christ is coming back in the year [AD] 1843 or [AD] 1844. And this gonna' ~ this video is gonna go and show you the dangers of misapplying prophecy, changing the words of the texts, and giving such dates. Giving such dates for the second advent. So, what happened? Well, what happened is that (heheh) [br. George Antonios briefly laughs] that the Lord [Jesus] did not come back in [AD] 1844 as you obviously know, because you are sitting here listening to this. Right? He [Jesus] didn't come back. When he [Jesus] didn't come back, that was, tha~, they kept on giving different dates. They [Millerites/Adventists] were saying, 'Ah maybe [AD] 1843.' Then they said, 'O, maybe it's, it's uh, [AD] 1844, sometime in March', I believe, or 'May.' I don't remember. Then they said, 'Oh, no, no, it's going to be in October.' And so when October [AD] 1844 came and went, October 23rd, that became known as the "Great Disappointment". They had the "Great Expectation", and the "Great Disappointment". Not surprisingly, because the Lord did not come back in [AD] 1844. [scene cuts] ..."

Furthermore:

Br. William Miller was indeed incorrect about the 'event' that was to take place, as already discussed, and the reasons given for that mistake (as a side not, making a mistake about the events of prophecy does not make one cultish, otherise I would have to classify you by your own rules as such, but do not). However, on the matter of prophetic time, he was essentially, correct, though there was some time needed for adjustment and fine tuning, due to calendrical issues (as already noted, between the modern calendar, and the varying Hebrew/Jewish calendars, the Hillel II rabbincal standardized, and the Karaite torah Jews). Even the New Testament allows for such, saying in regards the age of Jesus, "about thirty" (Luke 3:23) in which prophecy was being fulfilled. Sometimes history is a little fuzzy, and needs to be scrutinized more than once, and sometimes our eyesight goes from being blind, to blurry (Mark 8:24), then later to clearly. God is merciful.

As for the matter of "Giving such dates" [for the second coming of Jesus Christ], William Miller understood, if you would read his memoirs, etc, that to do so, some would think he was violating such scriptures as, Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32, etc. However, those verses are often misunderstood by those who cite them against knowing the time of Jesus second advent. They actually do not say that no man would know/understand the time of the second coming of Jesus.

“God” (the Father) will speak, uttering His own voice from heaven, announcing the “day and hour” of Jesus (His Son's) coming, and His voice will roll through the universe and earth, as peals of loudest thunder, and all will hear, though not all will understand. This is exactly what the scripture says, that only the Father would make known the day and hour, even as the scripture Mark 13:32 stated.

Jesus never said that mankind would not ever know the day and hour of His coming, but when we shall know after the close of human probation, when the Voice of God the Father speaks forth the day and hour from Heaven:

What if I told you, that though you cannot know the exact "time" ["season"] yet, but that you can know the events that lead up to it?

See - https://archive.org/download/awhn-2...phecy of Daniel 8 Vs 14 And Its Sub-Parts.jpg

Also, the phrase, "But of that day and hour knoweth [means to make known to others, see 1 Corinthians 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.; which is why Jesus could say "neither the Son" [Mark 13:32], as Jesus will not make it known, but leaves it to the Father to do] no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.", as stated by Jesus, does not say, that we will never know, and Jesus would not reveal it [though He knows it], since the Father Himself, has chosen, that after the close of probation, He will speak forth the time by His own voice, as that previous quotation reveals:

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Consider William Miller's own understanding of scripture when he says,

"... "Sometimes, when at work, a text would arise like this: 'Of that day and hour knoweth no man,' &c; and how, then, could the Bible reveal the time of the advent? I would then immediately examine the context in which it was found, and I saw that at once that, in the same connection, we are informed how we may know when it is nigh, even at the doors; consequently, that text could not teach that we could know nothing of the time of that event. ..." - Memoirs of William Miller by Sylvester Bliss, page [PDF] 81. - https://ia601503.us.archive.org/5/i...rs Of William Miller - By Sylvester Bliss.pdf

"... "I had never been positive as to any particular day (italics original) for the Lord's appearing, believing that no man could know the day and hour. In all my published lectures will be seen, on the title page, 'about the year 1843.' In all my oral lectures I invariably told my audiences that the periods would terminate in 1843 if (italics original) there were no mistakes in my calculation; but that I could not say the end might not come even before that time, and they should be continually prepared. In 1842, some of my brethren preached, with great positiveness, the exact year, and censured me for putting in an IF (capital letters original). The public press had also published that I had fixed upon a definite day, the 23d of April, for the Lord's advent. Therefore, in December of that year, as I could see no error in my reckoning, I published my belief, that, some time between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844, the Lord would come. Come had their minds fixed on particular days; but I could see no evidence for such, unless the types of the Mosaic law pointed to the Feast of Tabernacles. ..." - Memoirs of William Miller by Sylvester Bliss, page [PDF] 329 - https://ia601503.us.archive.org/5/i...rs Of William Miller - By Sylvester Bliss.pdf

This was before the smaller disappointment and before the 7th Month movement, in which Miller did finally accept. His March 21, 1844, was incorrect, because it was out of harmony with the Feasts, as he notes at the end of this quotation. March was circa the time of the Passover (beginning of months), and not the latter season feasts, of Day of Atonement and Tabernacles (October).

We can know the events in their order:

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The "this generation" is the last Generation. We are now living in that time. You might desire to see:

The Voice of God announcing the hour; Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, 3:16; Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; John 12:29; 2 Peter 1:17-18; Revelation 14:2; &c, all of which are referred to by sister White here:

{Great Controversy; Page 640}

"... The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. ..." - The Great Controversy, page 640

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

More errors:

Time Index 05:16 - 06:10 -- "... And so he [William Miller] told everybody Jesus Christ is coming back in the year [AD] 1843 or [AD] 1844. And this gonna' ~ this video is gonna go and show you the dangers of misapplying prophecy, changing the words of the texts, and giving such dates. Giving such dates for the second advent. So, what happened? Well, what happened is that (heheh) [br. George Antonios briefly laughs] that the Lord [Jesus] did not come back in [AD] 1844 as you obviously know, because you are sitting here listening to this. Right? He [Jesus] didn't come back. When he [Jesus] didn't come back, that was, tha~, they kept on giving different dates. They [Millerites/Adventists] were saying, 'Ah maybe [AD] 1843.' Then they said, 'O, maybe it's, it's uh, [AD] 1844, sometime in March', I believe, or 'May.' I don't remember. Then they said, 'Oh, no, no, it's going to be in October.' And so when October [AD] 1844 came and went, October 23rd, that became known as the "Great Disappointment". They had the "Great Expectation", and the "Great Disappointment". Not surprisingly, because the Lord did not come back in [AD] 1844. [scene cuts] ..."

Look carefully at those texts I cited. For instance:

Jeremiah 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Amos 1:2 And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Psalms 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

1 Samuel 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

2 Samuel 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

That voice of the Father speaking, and which voice rolls through the earth like peals of loudest thunder, is what brings the greatest and final earthquake:

Isaiah 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Matthew 25:13, Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples, then at that moment, and of course they would not then know the day and hour. It could only be announced by the Father Himself, long after Jesus ascended into Heaven, and they still had a misunderstanding about the kingdom as seen at the end of Luke and beginning of Acts,.

As for the matter of "giving different dates", this is somewhat of a cheap shot and was no "maybe" about it, but simply faith in the Bible's numeration or calculation, and the reason for the difference between AD 1843 and AD 1844, was found in the matter of calculation in the differing calendars, as noted already. In fact, after the small disappointment of 1843, they went back and studied the matter and found why they were in error, and so readjusted to the correct time. It was known as the 7th month movement among the Adventists, and Samuel Sheffield Snow was the one who came with the corrected time (both year and month (fall, not spring), as according to the time Jesus was using in the NT, the feast calendar of Leviticus 16 & 23, and understood when the Day of Atonement was to be, Leviticus 23:26-32, just as Jesus had correctly followed the time of the Passover, in the spring of AD 31.), as already cited. Br. Miller, himself, at first did not accept the change, but later studied the matter, and came to realize its correctness. The movement had gone beyond him, as it was meant to. It was not as if they had come to a date, and simply went and picked another out of the aether when the first did not materialize as expected. The Lord was testing to see who was true in heart, and who was not. Many 'time servers' had joined with them, and God knows how to shake out those who are not with Him. All this may be seen in Revelation 10. The entire Advent movement is prophesied therein, along with the Great Disappointment and all, and even God holding providence over all of it, allowing things to take place as they were. The detail in Revelation 10, can be given later as needful.

I also personally found the brief 'laugh' distasteful, and especially amidst so much erroneous material that you just plainly get wrong, even in simple things like the date of the Great Disappointment, among other things. These are not laughing matters br. Antonios. You ought to present your case in a most serious, solemn and loving manner. You do this in part (such as at the beginning, and thank you for it), but slipped in a few places, such as here.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Another error, a false broad over-generalization:

Time Index 06:10 - 08:23 -- (Summation) Basic material about some groups [Jehovah's Witnesses by Charles Taze Russell; Branch Davidians at Waco, TX, with Vernon Wayne Howell (aka 'David Koresh'), the Worldwide Church Of God by Herbert Armstrong)] that came about because of the Great Disappointment.

Only one or two small clarifications here.

[1] The Jehovah's Witnesses came about from the 'Bible Students' movement, that rejected the [AD] 1844 date as fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 8:13-14,26. Charles Taze Russell lead them, and later 'rebranded' as the Jehovah's Witnesses, and also the WTS, the Watchtower and Tract Society.

Jehovah's Witnesses also believe in 'hell', just not the satanic theology of eternal conscious torment. You may see some of that here - Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

While Jehovah's Witnesses have certain parts correct in the matters of the state of the dead and 'hell', they are not entirely correct. Errors therein would include the resurrection of Jesus (as they teach), the 144,000 and even that hell is never a place of fire, except with perhaps the notion of the bodies of the wicked being destroyed.

[2] The Branch Davidians, eventually under Vernon Wayne Howell (later calling himself 'David Koresh', after King David of Israel and King Cyrus II of Persia), came about as a splinter group from the "Davidians" (so-called 'feast keepers') which had previously broken away from the main body of Seventh-day Adventists. 'David Koresh' didn't exactly proclaim himself to be "the Messiah" [Time Index 07:02], but rather, if you study his preaching/teaching, he proclaimed to be a messiah-like figure, like unto David or Cyrus II, and not actually the return of Jesus himself. They also taught 'hell' and 'hellfire' was real, while teaching 'soul sleep'. You cannot say that these didn't teach that there is a 'hell'. For instance, "... According to his tape "What is Truth?" Koresh taught that there are two destinations in the post resurrection afterlife, "Hell" and "The Kingdom to Come." ..." - Branch Davidian Theology | Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

Just because they do not believe in 'eternal conscious torment' (a sick sadistic theology of the devil, who blasphemes God by labelling God as its author), does not mean that they did not believe in 'hell', and 'hellfire'. You need to correct your statements, which are too general and broad, even incorrect.

[3] The same goes for Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God. They also teach 'hell', and 'hellfire', just not the eternal conscious torment (which the Bible does not teach).

"... The "sleep" state of the dead, meaning the dead have not yet been judged, rewarded, or condemned, but rather wait to be resurrected.
Punishment of the incorrigible is not an eternity of torment in Hell, but rather a merciful annihilation, through fire, by the edict of God. ..." - Armstrongism - Wikipedia

You need to correct your video when you say, incorrectly,

Time Index 08:23- 08:33 -- "... And all of those guys, all the Adventists teach, 'There is no hell.' That the dead are simply unconscious. So, just like the Jehovah' Witnesses, that's what I'm trying to tell you. ..."

More than the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are not entirely correct, so definitely not "just like" them (you overstated the matter and need to correct yourself), the doctrine of the state of the dead and hell/hellfire, was around long before they showed up. I can cite Baptists, Lutherans, and others from the Reformation (William Tyndale; John Frith, Martin Luther, General Baptists, Samuel Richardson (a Baptist), E. Earl Ellis (a Baptist), Dale Moody (a Baptist), Claude Mariottini (a Baptist), Edward Fudge, &c) and others still (John Milton, A.A. Phelps (Congregationalist), as well as some called 'ECF') and before that all taught that the dead, sleep, until their respective resurrection, and that the hell/hellfire is for the annihilation of the wicked (John 3:16). [Citations forthcoming].

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Correcting the bad analyzing of history:

Time Index 08:23- 08:33 -- "... And all of those guys, all the Adventists teach, 'There is no hell.' That the dead are simply unconscious. So, just like the Jehovah' Witnesses, that's what I'm trying to tell you. ..."

More than the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are not entirely correct, so definitely not "just like" them (you overstated the matter and need to correct yourself), the doctrine of the state of the dead and hell/hellfire, was around long before they showed up. I can cite Baptists, Lutherans, and others from the Reformation (William Tyndale; John Frith, Martin Luther, General Baptists, Samuel Richardson (a Baptist), E. Earl Ellis (a Baptist), Dale Moody (a Baptist), Claude Mariottini (a Baptist), Edward Fudge, &c) and others still (John Milton, A.A. Phelps (Congregationalist), as well as some called 'ECF') and before that all taught that the dead, sleep, until their respective resurrection, and that the hell/hellfire is for the annihilation of the wicked (John 3:16).

“William Tyndale (1484-1536),
English Bible translator and Martyr

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innate immortality. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [Thomas More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118

John Frith (1503-33),
associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)
Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography

John Milton (1608-1674),
"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctrine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - The Prose Works of John Milton ...

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Correcting the bad analyzing of history:

Time Index 08:23- 08:33 -- "... And all of those guys, all the Adventists teach, 'There is no hell.' That the dead are simply unconscious. So, just like the Jehovah' Witnesses, that's what I'm trying to tell you. ..."

More than the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are not entirely correct, so definitely not "just like" them (you overstated the matter and need to correct yourself), the doctrine of the state of the dead and hell/hellfire, was around long before they showed up. I can cite Baptists, Lutherans, and others from the Reformation (William Tyndale; John Frith, Martin Luther, General Baptists, Samuel Richardson (a Baptist), E. Earl Ellis (a Baptist), Dale Moody (a Baptist), Claude Mariottini (a Baptist), Edward Fudge, &c) and others still (John Milton, A.A. Phelps (Congregationalist), as well as some called 'ECF') and before that all taught that the dead, sleep, until their respective resurrection, and that the hell/hellfire is for the annihilation of the wicked (John 3:16).

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.
It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.
It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.
It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.
It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.
Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.
Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.
Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.
It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.
It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.
It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.
It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - Heresy

Modern era:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way

"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?

E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

Edward Fudge - Hell and Mr. Fudge

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Correcting the bad analyzing of history:

Time Index 08:23- 08:33 -- "... And all of those guys, all the Adventists teach, 'There is no hell.' That the dead are simply unconscious. So, just like the Jehovah' Witnesses, that's what I'm trying to tell you. ..."

More than the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are not entirely correct, so definitely not "just like" them (you overstated the matter and need to correct yourself), the doctrine of the state of the dead and hell/hellfire, was around long before they showed up. I can cite Baptists, Lutherans, and others from the Reformation (William Tyndale; John Frith, Martin Luther, General Baptists, Samuel Richardson (a Baptist), E. Earl Ellis (a Baptist), Dale Moody (a Baptist), Claude Mariottini (a Baptist), Edward Fudge, &c) and others still (John Milton, A.A. Phelps (Congregationalist), as well as some called 'ECF') and before that all taught that the dead, sleep, until their respective resurrection, and that the hell/hellfire is for the annihilation of the wicked (John 3:16).

Martin Luther (1493-1546)
German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elsewhere Luther states that:

“As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martin Luther:

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..." - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says

Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]

Elsewhere Luther states that

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Moving onward:

Time Index 08:23 - 09:21 - not much to comment on here that hasn't already been commented on.

Yet:

Time Index 09:21 - 09:30 -- "... Look at those different groups that came out of the Adventist movement. And their different doctrines, and every one of them very much followed one specific leader. ..."

Again, we have a broad over-generalization here. The JW today, do not follow Charles Taze Russell, but rather now closely adhere to the WTS (the written material of a group) and the KIT (few) or NWT (majority) or something like an 'interlinear'.

If you look at the Branch Davidians, they have multiple sources of 'authority':

"... The Branch Davidians refer to the Bible as their main standard of authority, but often use apocryphal books. They also regard the works and teachings of Ellen G. White, Victor Houteff, Ben Roden, Lois Roden, and David Koresh to be inspired prophecy (Letter from Branch Davidian, Brad Branch). ..." - Branch Davidian Theology | Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

As for the Seventh-day Adventists, sister Ellen G White was most definitely not the "leader". She was even sent to Australia by the 'leadership' as they (in their apostasy) didn't want her around. She desired all to follow scripture, and Jesus Christ. She saw her role as simply the Messenger of the Lord. As a Seventh-day Adventist myself, I personally do not follow sister White (except as she followed Jesus Christ; Philippians 3:17). She is not, and never has been, my goal. Jesus Christ is my goal (Philippians 3:14), and the same for every true Seventh-day Adventist, including herself.

Notice what she said (in so many places I cannot quote them all here, but just a sample):

"... It is a blessed privilege to give up all for Christ. Look not at the lives of others and imitate them and rise no higher. You have only one true, unerring Pattern. It is safe to follow Jesus only. ..." - Testimonies For The Church, Volume 1, page 241.1

"... We must study and copy and follow Jesus Christ, then we shall bring His loveliness and beauty into our character. In doing this we are standing before God through faith, winning back by conflict with the powers of darkness the power of self-control, the love of God that Adam lost.—Manuscript 6a, 1886 ..." - Manuscript 6a, 1886.

"... And then I appealed to them, saying: "For years you have had many evidences that the Lord has given me a work to do. These evidences could scarcely have been greater than they are. Will you brush away all these evidences as a cobweb, at the suggestion of a man's unbelief? That which makes my heart ache is the fact that many who are now perplexed and tempted are those who have had abundance of evidence and opportunity to consider and pray and understand; and yet they do not discern the nature of the sophistries that are presented to influence them to reject the warnings God has given to save them from the delusions of these last days." {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 2}

Some have stumbled over the fact that I said I did not claim to be a prophet and they have asked, Why is this? {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 3}

I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am the Lord's messenger; that he called me in my youth to be his messenger, to receive his word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the Lord Jesus. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 4}

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be his messenger. "Your work," he instructed me, "is to bear my word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make my Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and my power shall be with you. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 5}

"Be not afraid of man, for my shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 6}

Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 7}

When this work was first given me, I begged the Lord to lay the burden on some one else. The work was so large and broad and deep that I feared I could not do it. But by his Holy Spirit the Lord has enabled me to perform the work which he gave me to do. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 8} ..." - The Advent Review And Sabbath Herald, July 26, 1906; par. 2-8

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Moving on:

Time Index 09:30 - 09:40 -- Not much to comment on that hasn't already been commented on.

I will again, go to the Hiram Edson quotation, and point out another aspect:

Time Index 09:40 - 10:21 -- "... So in that "Disappointment" ["Great Disappointment"] of [AD] 1844, there was a guy called 'Hiram Edson', who would later on be collaborator with 'White' [Ellen G White]. And he, uh, basically had a revelation, and he said this [paraphrasing events], he said that while he was passing through a field he got a vision from God and he found out that 'Oh, no, no, we [Adventists] misunderstood. The sanctuary is not earth.' Which was true. He says what happened was that in [AD] 1844, Jesus went from the [pause in speech] holy place ~ Remember in the tabernacle, there was a holy place and a holiest. That Jesus wasn't in the Holiest. He was in the holy place. That in [AD] 1844 he [Jesus] went into the Holy ~ [self-correction by George Antonios] the Holiest place, and that's when he started checking out who's saved and who's not. And he [Hiram Edson] calls it a wedding and we have to wait for him [Jesus] ..."

Hiram Edsom, as ORL Crosier and later others studied and found in the Bible, that as in the type, there would need to be fulfillment in anti-type, in regards the priestly and high priestly work. There was the service of the courtyard, and also the services (plural) of the Holy Place and Most Holy Place.

The Bible is explicit in this, notice:

Type:

Exo_12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Antitype:

1Co_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

A greater image may be seen here in Powerpoint - https://archive.org/download/the-feasts-of-the-lord/The Feasts Of The LORD.pptx

or here in image - https://archive.org/download/awhn-bible-7-feasts-of-the-lord/AWHN - Bible - 7 Feasts Of The LORD.jpg

AWHN%20-%20Bible%20-%207%20Feasts%20Of%20The%20LORD.jpg

When Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives (Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:9-12; Psalms 24:1-10, etc), he went not into the Most Holy Place of Heaven, but rather to the Holy Place, as witnessed in Revelation 1:

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

We see that the Father moved from the Most Holy Place to meet with Jesus in the Holy Place, where the throne was moved to and "set" (placed) and then the Father sits again and is surrounded by the 24 Elders, the leaders of the unfallen worlds (just as the type on earth in Israel had, of 24 courses of priests; 1 Chronicles 24 - 25), as John looks from the Courtyard of the earth into the Holy Place of Heaven, through the veil, or "door":

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

The word "before" means in front of or across from. Thus, God's throne was moved from the Most Holy place to the place of the antitypical Table of Shewbread position, on the "sides of the North" (Isaiah 14:13), which was across from, or "before" the 7 branch Candlesticks, which we see likewise in Revelation 1.

Jesus (this "angel", simply means messenger, not a created being) is seen before the Altar of Incense also in the Holy Place, as vs 2 deals with the 7 angels of the 7 churches of Revelation 1 & 2-3, as each messenger was to give a certain sound, by lifting up their voice as to the matter of the prophetic times:

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Moving on:

Time Index 09:30 - 09:40 -- Not much to comment on that hasn't already been commented on.

I will again, go to the Hiram Edson quotation, and point out another aspect:

Time Index 09:40 - 10:21 -- "... So in that "Disappointment" ["Great Disappointment"] of [AD] 1844, there was a guy called 'Hiram Edson', who would later on be collaborator with 'White' [Ellen G White]. And he, uh, basically had a revelation, and he said this [paraphrasing events], he said that while he was passing through a field he got a vision from God and he found out that 'Oh, no, no, we [Adventists] misunderstood. The sanctuary is not earth.' Which was true. He says what happened was that in [AD] 1844, Jesus went from the [pause in speech] holy place ~ Remember in the tabernacle, there was a holy place and a holiest. That Jesus wasn't in the Holiest. He was in the holy place. That in [AD] 1844 he [Jesus] went into the Holy ~ [self-correction by George Antonios] the Holiest place, and that's when he started checking out who's saved and who's not. And he [Hiram Edson] calls it a wedding and we have to wait for him [Jesus] ..."

Jesus is there, in the Holy Place, from the 1st to the 6th church, when the Father and Jesus move from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place:

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

The "door" to the Holy Place was closed, and the "door" to the Most Holy Place was opened. Father and Son, move. No longer before the 7 Candlesticks, but now in the Most Holy Place where the Throne of God sits in the position of the Ark of the Covenant, where the Law of God and Judgment take place:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Paul talks about this in Hebrews:

Heb_9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The "first tabernacle" is Paul's way of saying the Holy Place:

Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Thus while Jesus was ministering in the Holy Place of Heaven, the Most Holy Place was not actively being used, until the anti-typical Day of Atonement, "5 months" (Revelation 9:5,6,10, the time between Pentecost (3rd Month) and Trumpets-Atonement-Tabernacles (7th Month)).

Thus as the earthly type in priests would serve "daily" in the courtyard (as Jesus had on earth, beginning at 30 years of age, as type stated he had to be; Numbers 4:3, etc), and also later in the Holy Place (as Jesus had in Heaven), then there would come the once in the year (yearly) event of the Day of Atonement, which involved the High Priest and the cleansing of the Sanctuary (Leviticus 16, 23 and Daniel 8, 11; Revelation 9:13-15, chap 10, chap 11, chap 14:6-12, etc.

Many prophets have seen the real Sanctuary of Heaven (Hebrews 8:2), and the varying compartments. Some of these persons are Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Asaph, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Apostle, Paul, and others. Sister White herself also saw in vision. I will produce those texts in the following replies.

Jesus did not begin his ministration in the Most Holy Place of Heaven, but rather ends it there.

Protestant · Jun 15, 2020

Rather than copy & paste sources utilized by Adventists for decades, Alofa would be well-advised to enlarge his research to that of recent scholarship.

There exists, online, Studies in the History of Christian Traditions, Volume 165, Translating Resurrection, The Debate between William Tyndale and George Joye in Its Historical and Theological Context, By Gergely M. Juhász, 2014. Leiden:Brill.

MARTIN LUTHER on soul sleep

The following excerpt is found on page 169:

“In a letter dated 13 January 1522 that was written to his Wittenberg scholar friend Canon Nicholaus von Amsdorf (1483– 1565), who had accompanied Luther to the Leipzig Disputation and the Diet of Worms, Luther addressed the idea of soul sleep for the first time.234 Amsdorf’s original letter has not been found, but from Luther’s answer it seems that Amsdorf had asked Luther about his opinion on the matter. In his response Luther states that he is ready to concede that the souls of the righteous sleep at an unknown place until the Day of Judgement. This is what 2 Sam. 7:12 (in the Vulgate’s reading: dormiunt cum patribus suis) seems to suggest, Luther argued. But Luther was not sure if this is the case for all souls, if one takes the raptures of Paul (2 Cor. 12:2), Moses (Luke 9:30-31), and Elijah (2 Kgs. 2:11) into consideration. Luther maintained that the appearance of these last two on Mount Tabor (Mt. 17:3), as well as the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, seems to contradict such a sleep of the souls after death. Therefore, it is not clear what God does with the souls separated from their bodies.” [The author’s footnote cites the original Latin, ““Quis enim novit, quomodo Deus agat cum animabus separatis?” (WA BW II, p. 422).]

CONCLUSION: To state unequivocally Luther advocated soul sleep is a flagrant misrepresentation of the truth, typical of Adventist apologetics.

Protestant · Jun 15, 2020

JOHN FRITH on the immortality fo the soul

“Two years later, in 1531, Frith published in Antwerp his A Disputacion of Purgatorye, in which he flatly denied the existence of Purgatory. The work was meant as a reply to three books: John Rastell’s A new boke of purgatory, Thomas More’s The supplycacyon of soulys, and John Fisher’s Assertionis Lutheranae Confutatio, all of which treated (to some extent) the Catholic teaching on Purgatory. Frith agreed to the outcome of the first two dialogues in Rastell’s book (there is a just and merciful God, and the soul is immortal), even if he thought that the way Rastell arrived at those points was dubious” (Op. cit. p. 267).

JOHN FRITH on soul sleep

“Consequently, only the Word of God, the touchstone of every doctrine, can be used to discern whether a certain teaching of the Church Fathers is true or not.772 But even when Scripture is applied to prove a point, Fisher misinterpreted those texts. It is impossible, for instance, to deduce anything about post-mortem existence, Frith contended, from Christ’s parable about the rich man and the poor Lazarus (Lk. 16:19–31).773 If there are some souls that are already in Heaven or Hell prior to the end of the world, as Fisher argued, then according to Frith, the resurrection of the flesh is in vain, and Christ’s and Paul’s arguments are worthless (Mt. 22:23–32 et par.; 1 Cor. 15).774 Frith believed that the unfaithful are damned, but those who believe pass from death to life, and so when they die they rest in peace (Jn. 3:15.18; 5:24; Wis. 3:3). The souls of the righteous are therefore in the hand of God and are not tormented by the pains of Purgatory (Wis. 3:1), but God wanted us to be ignorant of the exact place where they are. And the expression “Abrahams bosome” denotes “nothinge els than Abrahams fayth.” Those who depart in this faith rest in peace and await the resurrection of the flesh. It should be noted that Frith here does not explicitly affirm the doctrine of soul sleep….” (Op. cit. pp. 273-74).

CONCLUSION: Frith, like Luther, was not inflexible when defining that which he did not know for certain. He did know for certain that the elect were at rest in the hand of God. Thus, they were with God, not separated from Him awaiting their resurrection.

When time allows, Lord willing, I will respond, re: William Tyndale.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Just wanted to point out the difference between early Luther and mature later Luther, as well as, "Gergely M. Juhász, Ph.D. (2008) in Theology, Catholic University of Leuven, is Lecturer in Theology and Biblical Studies at Liverpool Hope University"

[Liverpool Hope University aka "Former names: Notre Dame College, Saint Katharine's College, Christ's College, Liverpool Institute of Higher Education, Liverpool Hope University College"]

I personally think you are deceptive, but that is neither here nor there:

"... Joye, however, changed the last clause to “But thou shalt be recompensed at the lyfe of the iuste men.” Although Joye did not explain his motivation to change Tyndale’s translation of this text, there can be no doubt that in Joye’s read-ing, this sentence also refers to the judgement of the individual at the moment of death: the ‘reward’ for the good deeds on earth shall be given to the individual upon his or her death. This interpretation of the text is consistent with his anthropological view and with his belief that the souls of the dead receive their reward or punishment immediately upon their death. Interpreting resurrectio in this sentence as referring to the bodily resurrection would have contradicted his dualistic anthropology or, at least in Joye’s understanding, would have promoted the Anabaptists’ (and Luther’s and Tyndale’s) position on soul sleep. ..." [PDF 385]

Have you read the conclusion? It doesn't match your conclusion (at all).

"... For him [William Tyndale], body and soul are in all probability not two differ-ent components but two different aspects of the same human person—a position that most modern exegetes believe to be the most ancient and authentic biblical view on the human being. ..." [PDF 431]

Furthermore, after the "conclusion" there is further material given by George Joye to Hugh Latimer (29 April 1533), saying:

"... that the sowles departyd slepe not nor 8 lye ydle tyll domes daye as Martyn luther and the Anabaptystes saye and as me 9 thinkythe ffrythe and William tyndall wolde..." - [PDF 433; lines 7-9]

George Joye's position was in opposition to those so named.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Commenting further on:

Time Index 09:40 - 10:21 -- cited previously

In regards the Heavenly Sanctuary:

Way back in Exodus, God spoke to Moses, and showed him the "pattern" to make on earth, which resembled that which existed in the Heavens ["... Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." [Matthew 6:10 KJB] and "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." [Psalms 40:8 KJB]]:

Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

Exodus 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Exodus 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

Numbers 8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

Moses saw the "pattern" of the true Heavenly things themselves, having been shown them by God - even Jesus, and was to make the earthly things after their "fashion":

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

Joshua knew of this "pattern":

Joshua 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you.

David and Solomon, were given this "pattern" by the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

1 Chronicles 28:10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

1 Chronicles 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

1 Chronicles 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

1 Chronicles 28:19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.

In the days of Solomon [after David], he too was to make a grander, more lasting earthly model of the heavenly:

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.

The reason for this was because the one by Moses was a temporary tent/tabernacle, that waxed old and is like unto our bodies, but Solomon's temple of precious stones and metals was to be an model of something everlasting and [as earthly possible] that fadeth not away, like unto the bodies of the resurrection.

But God said:

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
[That is to say 'human hands']

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

[the Hand of God, and is not His rest upon the Real Ark, His Throne with the Mercy Seat? [as His 'footstool', the mini-ark on earth made by Moses, etc], and what then is the foundation of His Government, the eternal Kingdom, the King's Dominion? His original eternal Law/Character.]

Asaph the Psalmist knew of the "pattern":

Psalms 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Ezekiel was shown this "pattern":

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Ezekiel 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Ezekiel 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Alofa Atu · Jun 15, 2020

Commenting further on:

Time Index 09:40 - 10:21 -- cited previously

In regards the Heavenly Sanctuary:

Paul, the writer of many epistles and of Hebrews, knew of this "pattern" and what was shown to Moses, and from where this "pattern" came from. It came from the True Tabernacle in Heaven!:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Daniel the Prophet knew of the "pattern", and even of the original!:

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

John the Apostle knew of this "pattern", and even saw the original!:

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Isaiah looked into Heaven, and saw the Heavenly Temple/House of God! the Doors of the Posts, the Altar and Tongs thereof:

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Isaiah 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Alofa Atu · Jun 16, 2020

Continuing:

Time Index 10:19 - 10:55 -- " ... And he [Hiram Edson] calls it a wedding, and we have to wait for him. Now, just pause for a second and think with me isn't that a bit strange, saying that the 2,300 days are years and that Christ wasn't in the Holiest until [AD] 1844, which means he could not be atoning, because the High Priest has to atone for the sins of the people inside the Holiest place on the mercy seat. So, 'til [AD] 1844 Christ was not interceding as a High Priest and he only becomes a High Priest in the Holiest place in [AD] 1844? And that's called a wedding? And now we have to wait for him, and he's, st~, still not here? Just, odd things. ..."

The "wedding" is referred to in the parable found in Matthew 22, as well as Matthew 25.

Mat_22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

[ps, you confuse two words, "atone" and "interceding"]

Matthew 22 is connected to Revelation 3:9-10:

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Joe_2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Matthew 22 has two fulfillments, as there are two doors. One into the Holy Place which had been open until AD 1844 and then closed, and another door into the Most Holy place would open and remain open until Christ Jesus comes out (as both doors also represent a phase of Christ's Ministry as He is the "door" (John 10:7,9)), which would then close that place. This is tied to Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25 and Revelation 22:11:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Jesus had once stood up in the days of the Apostles, at the trial of Stephen, and thus the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel was fulfilled, in AD 34, and their probation was closed for the adults, and only 1 generation remained (circa 40 years from the time Jesus told them that their house was left desolate), for the youth to either accept or reject. We are now in the Anti-typical time.

The "Marriage" takes place in Heaven:

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The people of God can only enter there by "faith", first into the Holy Place, then secondly into the Most Holy Place, at each door. Notice, in the parable of Matthew 22 the King "came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment." The people of God are the guests to the wedding, and each was provided (grace) a robe of Christ's righteousness, that they had to (do) put on and wear. A person was found during this time of 'investigation' (came in to see the guests) by the King. He did not pass inspection, by not wearing the provided garment, though he had come in.

Then connects later the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9, etc.

You may see the Investigative Judgment here from scripture (no EGW needed):

Continuing onward:

Time Index 10:55 - 11:55 -- "... So, in [AD] 1821 Mary White is born, at that time she was called, Ellen Gould, ~ Mary White ~ Ellen White, forgive me. Ellen White, at that time she was called Ellen Gould Harmon. And at, uh, the age of 12, so in [AD] 1840, her family got involved in the Millerite movement, the Adventist movement of William Miller. And when there was this "Disappointment" [the Great Disappointment of AD October 22, 1844], well she also had her own visions [AD December 1844]. She had her own visions, and basically she is uh, uh, she becames' a prophetess. In [AD] 1846, she marries James White, who is a young Adventist preacher, uh, they got a son, she leaves him at home with some, some people to raise him and they basically start traveling all over New England to expound, to uh, basically preach their newfound doctrine. They move eventually to Battle Creek, Michigan. That becomes the hub of the Adventist movement, that had been separated, it was disparred [? 'dispersed' ?], it was scattered and they basically unite under her teaching. This is origin of the Seventh-day Adventist church. [scene change] ..."

Except for the errors already pointed out here, in the name and date (should be 1827, as corrected), there is no much here to comment on, except she is regarded as the Lord's messenger, and her work was much more than a prophet as already cited.

The Adventist movement really wasn't Miller's, once it moved out of the phase of the Millerite movement early on. William Miller faded into the back drop as others came in to lift up the standard from all over, including a guy by the name of Joseph Wolff - Joseph Wolff - Wikipedia and many others.

Actually, if you study the movement, the people were united under the understanding of the Heavenly Sanctuary. White's visions (first in Dec, 1844), generally only confirmed what was already studied out from the Bible, including that subject (for months her mind would be 'locked' as she puts it, until the Bible study went as far as it could go, and then a vision would be sent confirming what was studied, with additional details that were missed in the study of their Bibles). Very rarely did she ever 'pull rank' as the messenger of the Lord, as others had done before her, and withstood Kings, Priests, etc. when needful.

Yes, James White and Ellen Harmon were married on August 30, 1846.

Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

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