Of Freedom of the Will

[37818]

No Abraham was imputed with righteousness from God.
MB

OK. But you did argue:

Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his service. He did what God told Him to do.

 

[Yeshua1]

While I don't completely understand, I am inclined to believe you. I will need to let some of this sink in. On that note, I need to get back to work. I'll try to "pop in" later this afternoon.

[EDIT]
Something just occurred to me, and I wanted to share it before I forgot. Is it that we "choose" Christ only because He has first chosen us? That is, that unless He has "called" (chosen) us, we are unable to choose Him?

Exactly! While dead in our sin natures to God, we were at war with Him, but now alive again in Christ!

 

[Lodic]

If Christ gives us eternal life how long does it last? There would be no eternal life for anyone if one could loose it. Please consider there is no pause or ending in eternal life other wise it would not be eternal.
Mark wrote;
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Does all mean just the sins of our past or. does it mean all sins past present and future? If we could loose our salvation everyone would be lost. There is not one Christian who does not sin because we still have the old nature along with the new. Paul wrote about the solution to our sin after Salvation. It's called dying daily. In Romans 6.7.8.
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

It may surprise you to consider what exactly is being talked about in Hebrews 10. The first verse in that chapter tells us.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
You see this chapter speaks of the covenant before Christ and what it was like. When Christ died for our sins this changed. Salvation became eternal other wise no one would ever get to heaven.
The Law could not save only the blood of Christ can cleanse us of all our sins. The saved are no longer under the LAW
MB

You present an excellent argument, MB. I'm not entirely sure I can disagree with you, but I would like to present some questions all the same.

You are right, of course, regarding the Law. That doesn't quite answer my question regarding the Hebrews passages. Maybe I am just missing something.
If I receive any gift (anything from a birthday gift to Christ's gift of eternal life), that gift is mine as long as I choose to keep it. If I give away a book I got for Christmas, it is no longer mine. Eternal life is more complicated in that nobody can steal it like they can my new book. However, does that mean that I cannot reject it?

James 1:12 "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life...". If the man who perseveres receives the crown of life, the one who does not persevere does not receive the crown of life.

Revelation 22:19 tells us that whoever adds to or takes away from the words of the prophecy will have his name taken out of the Book of Life. It can't be added unless it was added in the first place.

You obviously know Scripture quite well, and I'd like to know your thoughts on those passages.

 

[Yeshua1]

You present an excellent argument, MB. I'm not entirely sure I can disagree with you, but I would like to present some questions all the same.

You are right, of course, regarding the Law. That doesn't quite answer my question regarding the Hebrews passages. Maybe I am just missing something.
If I receive any gift (anything from a birthday gift to Christ's gift of eternal life), that gift is mine as long as I choose to keep it. If I give away a book I got for Christmas, it is no longer mine. Eternal life is more complicated in that nobody can steal it like they can my new book. However, does that mean that I cannot reject it?

James 1:12 "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life...". If the man who perseveres receives the crown of life, the one who does not persevere does not receive the crown of life.

Revelation 22:19 tells us that whoever adds to or takes away from the words of the prophecy will have his name taken out of the Book of Life. It can't be added unless it was added in the first place.

You obviously know Scripture quite well, and I'd like to know your thoughts on those passages.

The gift of God to us is eternal life in Christ Jesus, so how long would eternal be?

 

[Lodic]

The gift of God to us is eternal life in Christ Jesus, so how long would eternal be?

Eternal - unless the receiver of the gift rejects it to serve another master (sin).

 

[Yeshua1]

Eternal - unless the receiver of the gift rejects it to serve another master (sin).

Jesus stated that those he saved will no longer be enslaved to sin but will be set free, correct?

 

[Lodic]

Jesus stated that those he saved will no longer be enslaved to sin but will be set free, correct?

Yes, they are no longer slaves to sin. That doesn't mean they couldn't reject Him afterwards. Scripture is filled with many warnings against turning away from the Faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, they are no longer slaves to sin. That doesn't mean they couldn't reject Him afterwards. Scripture is filled with many warnings against turning away from the Faith.

Jesus is the High priest interceding for us, and the Holy Spirit sealed us, so never can be lost again!

 

[Lodic]

Jesus is the High priest interceding for us, and the Holy Spirit sealed us, so never can be lost again!

True, He is our High Priest, and we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. However, consider Colossians 1:21-23 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...". This passage shows that we are reconciled in Christ and warns this is contingent upon us continuing in the faith.

 

[37818]

Eternal - unless the receiver of the gift rejects it to serve another master (sin).

The only way one can know one has eternal life is if it one cannot loose it. Until then one cannot know one has eternal life. 1 John 5:9-13. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life "shall never perish." John 1:28. And those who do not obey the will of God to receive it, Jesus says He "never knew" them (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[37818]

True, He is our High Priest, and we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. However, consider Colossians 1:21-23 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...". This passage shows that we are reconciled in Christ and warns this is contingent upon us continuing in the faith.

Only those who are actually in the faith can continue in the faith. Those who perish do not correctly understand to beleive the true gospel of grace (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

 

[Lodic]

The only way one can know one has eternal life is if it one cannot loose it. Until then one cannot know one has eternal life. 1 John 5:9-13. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life "shall never perish." John 1:28. And those who do not obey the will of God to receive it, Jesus says He "never knew" them (Matthew 7:21-23).

I must respectfully disagree. We know we have eternal life because we follow Christ. If we decide to follow another path, we lose salvation. Regarding those whom Jesus "never knew", I believe these were people who never truly knew Him.
1 John 5:9 also tells us that whoever is born of God does not sin because God's seed remains in him and he cannot sin. Yet, Christians continue to sin. Moving down to 1 John 2:1, we are encouraged because, while we do sin, we have an Advocate, Christ Jesus. In 1 John 5:13, the author states his purpose in writing - not only that they have eternal life, but, they may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God. According to verse 12, If they stop believing in Him, they no longer have eternal life.

 

[Lodic]

Only those who are actually in the faith can continue in the faith. Those who perish do not correctly understand to beleive the true gospel of grace (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Why would only those "actually in the faith" receive encouragement and warnings to remain in the faith? If there was no danger of them leaving the faith, warnings about the dangers of leaving the faith would be unnecessary.

 

[MB]

You present an excellent argument, MB. I'm not entirely sure I can disagree with you, but I would like to present some questions all the same.

You are right, of course, regarding the Law. That doesn't quite answer my question regarding the Hebrews passages. Maybe I am just missing something.
If I receive any gift (anything from a birthday gift to Christ's gift of eternal life), that gift is mine as long as I choose to keep it. If I give away a book I got for Christmas, it is no longer mine. Eternal life is more complicated in that nobody can steal it like they can my new book. However, does that mean that I cannot reject it?

Who would reject Salvation when faced with burning hell fire being the only other destination.There are only two destinations heaven or hell there is no in between.

James 1:12 "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life...". If the man who perseveres receives the crown of life, the one who does not persevere does not receive the crown of life.

Try reading the whole chapter. Temptation is not a trial. God tempts no man read verse 13.

Revelation 22:19 tells us that whoever adds to or takes away from the words of the prophecy will have his name taken out of the Book of Life. It can't be added unless it was added in the first place.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Nothing should ever be added to scripture or taken away.

You obviously know Scripture quite well, and I'd like to know your thoughts on those passages.

There are quite a few hear who know much more than I.
MB

 

[MB]

Why would only those "actually in the faith" receive encouragement and warnings to remain in the faith? If there was no danger of them leaving the faith, warnings about the dangers of leaving the faith would be unnecessary.

All of us can leave the faith and all of us who do that belong to Christ will be Chastised or punished in this life. Jonah was a good example.

 

[Lodic]

All of us can leave the faith and all of us who do that belong to Christ will be Chastised or punished in this life. Jonah was a good example.

Prime example of one who runs from God. His example shows there is hope for all of us.

 

[Lodic]

Who would reject Salvation when faced with burning hell fire being the only other destination.There are only two destinations heaven or hell there is no in between.

Try reading the whole chapter. Temptation is not a trial. God tempts no man read verse 13.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Nothing should ever be added to scripture or taken away.

There are quite a few hear who know much more than I.
MB

Note - I thought I had posted a reply, but it disappeared. I apologize if it's a duplicate.
"Who would reject Salvation?" Well, we are compared to sheep for good reasons. We are easily led astray.

Per your suggestion, I re-read James chapter 1. True, it's not God who tempts us. That doesn't change what else we see in the chapter - if we give in to our temptations, it will ultimately lead to death. This reinforces my view.

My point with the Revelation passage is that the one who alters Scripture will lose his part from the Book of Life. How can you take away something that wasn't added in the first place? As always, you present very logical arguments.

 

[37818]

Why would only those "actually in the faith" receive encouragement and warnings to remain in the faith? If there was no danger of them leaving the faith, warnings about the dangers of leaving the faith would be unnecessary.

The warnings are to make sure one is actually in the faith, 2 Peter 1:10; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12.

There is not a single holy scripture that teaches the saved can be lost!

Jesus warns that there are the lost who in the judgement think they ought to be among the saved (Matthew 7:21-23).

The saved know, John 17:3; John 7:17; John 10:27-28.

 

[Lodic]

The warnings are to make sure one is actually in the faith, 2 Peter 1:10; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12.

There is not a single holy scripture that teaches the saved can be lost!

Jesus warns that there are the lost who in the judgement think they ought to be among the saved (Matthew 7:21-23).

The saved know, John 17:3; John 7:17; John 10:27-28.

While you present a good argument, I must disagree. John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes." In this passage, Jesus is speaking of people who are truly saved. They were IN HIM, yet they did not bear fruit.
Earlier I mentioned Colossians 1:23, which encourages us to continue in the faith and not move away from it.
Hebrews 3:12 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God...". You can't depart from God unless you were first in Him.
I am pretty sure you take the view that these are also warning, as you stated above. We may just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[37818]

While you present a good argument, I must disagree. John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes." In this passage, Jesus is speaking of people who are truly saved. They were IN HIM, yet they did not bear fruit.
Earlier I mentioned Colossians 1:23, which encourages us to continue in the faith and not move away from it.
Hebrews 3:12 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God...". You can't depart from God unless you were first in Him.
I am pretty sure you take the view that these are also warning, as you stated above. We may just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I am not a Calvinist.
Two issues.
First, I hold because Christ died for the "whole world" 1 John 2:2, both the living (the saved) and the dead (the perishing) Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11, that everyone is in the vine, John 15:1-2. So unless Christ's sinlessness is imputed, 1 John 3:6, then one does not yet abide in the vine nor know God.

So unless one comes to know God through Christ, one is departing from God, Hebrews 2:12; Romans 3:11; Romans 1:20.