Of Freedom of the Will

[MB]

Note - I thought I had posted a reply, but it disappeared. I apologize if it's a duplicate.
"Who would reject Salvation?" Well, we are compared to sheep for good reasons. We are easily led astray.

Per your suggestion, I re-read James chapter 1. True, it's not God who tempts us. That doesn't change what else we see in the chapter - if we give in to our temptations, it will ultimately lead to death. This reinforces my view.

True but the death mentioned is a Physical death, not a Spiritual death. People are going to be led astray but being led astray doesn't mean we loose our Salvation because if it.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

How long is never? Once we belong to Christ he will not loose us no matter what

My point with the Revelation passage is that the one who alters Scripture will lose his part from the Book of Life. How can you take away something that wasn't added in the first place? As always, you present very logical arguments.

My interpretation of that is to change what scripture says with the intent of deception. I recommend reading and studying the Bible.There is nothing more important.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
MB

 

[Lodic]

I am not a Calvinist.
Two issues.
First, I hold because Christ died for the "whole world" 1 John 2:2, both the living (the saved) and the dead (the perishing) Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11, that everyone is in the vine, John 15:1-2. So unless Christ's sinlessness is imputed, 1 John 3:6, then one does not yet abide in the vine nor know God.

So unless one comes to know God through Christ, one is departing from God, Hebrews 2:12; Romans 3:11; Romans 1:20.

Agreed - Christ did indeed die for the whole world. Unfortunately, the whole world will not be saved, but only those who actually follow Christ, as we both know. The righteousness of Christ is imputed upon every believer. This still does not take away our ability to reject Him afterwards.
If we were to take 1 John 3:6 at face value, no true Christian would ever sin again. Since that is not the case, John must mean something else. In verse 7, John goes on to warn us about being deceived. There must be a danger of falling away, or he would not have included this warning.
If I may ask, what does Calvinism have to do with this question? I must be missing something.

 

[Lodic]

True but the death mentioned is a Physical death, not a Spiritual death. People are going to be led astray but being led astray doesn't mean we loose our Salvation because if it.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

How long is never? Once we belong to Christ he will not loose us no matter what


My interpretation of that is to change what scripture says with the intent of deception. I recommend reading and studying the Bible.There is nothing more important.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
MB

True but the death mentioned is a Physical death, not a Spiritual death. People are going to be led astray but being led astray doesn't mean we loose our Salvation because if it.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

How long is never? Once we belong to Christ he will not loose us no matter what


My interpretation of that is to change what scripture says with the intent of deception. I recommend reading and studying the Bible.There is nothing more important.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
MB

I never questioned that the main point of the Revelation passage was a warning not to add to or take away from Scripture. I was making the observation that the one who does so will have his name taken out of the Book of Life. This would not be possible unless his name had been in the Book of Life earlier.
John 10:27 - I completely agree. His sheep follow Him.
John 10:28 - No man can pluck His sheep out of His hand. That doesn't mean that we can't remove ourselves.

I agree completely with your admonition about studying the Bible. Indeed, nothing is more important. I'm quite sure you've been digging into the Word for many years, as I have also. That doesn't mean we will come to the same conclusion - even when guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[37818]

Agreed - Christ did indeed die for the whole world. Unfortunately, the whole world will not be saved, but only those who actually follow Christ, as we both know. The righteousness of Christ is imputed upon every believer. This still does not take away our ability to reject Him afterwards.

Ok. We disagree on this. Why would one ever want to go to the second death on purpose? Makes no sense at all. And God who does the saving is the one who does the keeping. And besides that, if one dies and goes to hell, it is only because the are not saved. So furthmore to say one is saved and lost is utter nonsense. And then no one could now know they have eternal life.

If we were to take 1 John 3:6 at face value, no true Christian would ever sin again. Since that is not the case, John must mean something else. In verse 7, John goes on to warn us about being deceived. There must be a danger of falling away, or he would not have included this warning.
If I may ask, what does Calvinism have to do with this question? I must be missing something.

1 John 3:6 must be understood as one's imputed legal statanding in Christ, not being under the Law. 1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 6:14; James 2:10.

 

[Lodic]

Ok. We disagree on this. Why would one ever want to go to the second death on purpose? Makes no sense at all. And God who does the saving is the one who does the keeping. And besides that, if one dies and goes to hell, it is only because the are not saved. So furthmore to say one is saved and lost is utter nonsense. And then no one could now know they have eternal life.
1 John 3:6 must be understood as one's imputed legal statanding in Christ, not being under the Law. 1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 6:14; James 2:10.

Nobody would ever do it on purpose. However, those who are deceived don't understand what their eternal future holds.
I must agree with you regarding the passages above. That makes perfect sense regarding our legal standing in Christ.
Would you take the same view with Colossians 1:21-23? The "if indeed you continue in the faith" (v. 23) is a big "if".

 

[Yeshua1]

Nobody would ever do it on purpose. However, those who are deceived don't understand what their eternal future holds.
I must agree with you regarding the passages above. That makes perfect sense regarding our legal standing in Christ.
Would you take the same view with Colossians 1:21-23? The "if indeed you continue in the faith" (v. 23) is a big "if".

There is a part of Greek Grammer when at times if would be more like saying since, with the expectation one will keep on doing the required action....

 

[Lodic]

There is a part of Greek Grammer when at times if would be more like saying since, with the expectation one will keep on doing the required action....

As much as possible, I try to understand original audience relevance. However, I did not know that. Interesting perspective.

 

[37818]

Nobody would ever do it on purpose. However, those who are deceived don't understand what their eternal future holds.

Well your argument involves the difference between actually knowing and not knowing for sure.

Would you take the same view with Colossians 1:21-23? The "if indeed you continue in the faith" (v. 23) is a big "if".

". . . And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . . ." -- Colossians 1:21-23. (Mark 16:15)

As I understand it, it is the difference between actually being in the faith or not.

 

[Lodic]

Well your argument involves the difference between actually knowing and not knowing for sure.



". . . And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . . ." -- Colossians 1:21-23. (Mark 16:15)

As I understand it, it is the difference between actually being in the faith or not.

That is at the root of our question, though. While we agree that those who do not continue are not in the faith, you are saying that they never truly were. I believe that they were, but they, like Ephesus in Revelation, they have left their First Love.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is at the root of our question, though. While we agree that those who do not continue are not in the faith, you are saying that they never truly were. I believe that they were, but they, like Ephesus in Revelation, they have left their First Love.

The person who is really saved will be of imperishable seed/stock, as its God Himself who is working in and thru them, and they have Jesus as High priest, sealed with.by the Holy Spirit, so would be impossible to lose real salvation.

 

[Lodic]

The person who is really saved will be of imperishable seed/stock, as its God Himself who is working in and thru them, and they have Jesus as High priest, sealed with.by the Holy Spirit, so would be impossible to lose real salvation.

This has been a really great conversation - especially since you present such sound arguments. While I'm not convinced that I am wrong, I'm not as sure that I am right either. Lots to ponder.

 

[Yeshua1]

This has been a really great conversation - especially since you present such sound arguments. While I'm not convinced that I am wrong, I'm not as sure that I am right either. Lots to ponder.

Remember, Jesus stated that ALL that the father gave to Him shall be raised up, and that NONE shall perish/get lost again!
Also, if a Christian decides to abuse their salvation and go out into deep sinning, will bring upon themselves chastisement of God, even to the point God calling them home early in order to save their souls and not have His name profaned!

 

[37818]

That is at the root of our question, though. While we agree that those who do not continue are not in the faith, you are saying that they never truly were. I believe that they were, but they, like Ephesus in Revelation, they have left their First Love.

Two things here.

Personally I came to Christ in the primise that I can know for sure. And I do.

And one who lost his first love was the angel/messenger/pastor of the church of Ephesus.
". . . Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. . . ." -- Revelation 2:4. His work as a pastor.
In verse 3 Jesus warns him that if does not do this He will take his candlestick (that is, his church) from him. See Revelation 1:20.

 

[Lodic]

Remember, Jesus stated that ALL that the father gave to Him shall be raised up, and that NONE shall perish/get lost again!
Also, if a Christian decides to abuse their salvation and go out into deep sinning, will bring upon themselves chastisement of God, even to the point God calling them home early in order to save their souls and not have His name profaned!

Between you and a couple of the others on this conversation, you give me a lot to think about. I'm not quite as sure of my view as I was at the beginning. That's not to say that I'm fully convinced, but I know that I may be wrong.

 

[Lodic]

Two things here.

Personally I came to Christ in the primise that I can know for sure. And I do.

And one who lost his first love was the angel/messenger/pastor of the church of Ephesus.
". . . Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. . . ." -- Revelation 2:4. His work as a pastor.
In verse 3 Jesus warns him that if does not do this He will take his candlestick (that is, his church) from him. See Revelation 1:20.

Each of us come to Christ with the hope that we will spend eternity with Him. I am convinced that if I died right now, I would go straight to Heaven. I also believe Christians who become apostate lose their hope of Heaven unless they turn to Christ again.
While I'm no expert in languages, I believe that "thee" and "thou" can have both singular and plural meanings, just as "you" does in English. While I can see the logic in your interpretation, I believe Jesus is telling the church in Ephesus that they may lose their place.

 

[37818]

Each of us come to Christ with the hope that we will spend eternity with Him. I am convinced that if I died right now, I would go straight to Heaven. I also believe Christians who become apostate lose their hope of Heaven unless they turn to Christ again.

But neither you nor anyone else typically knows when they are going to die. So what you are saying is no one really knows for sure, since no one typically knows when they will die.

While I'm no expert in languages, I believe that "thee" and "thou" can have both singular and plural meanings, just as "you" does in English. While I can see the logic in your interpretation, I believe Jesus is telling the church in Ephesus that they may lose their place.

No. What Jesus said in those seven letters He said to the angel/messenger/pastor of each of the seven churches. When in a letter Jesus uses "you" [not "thee" or "thou"] He is then addressing them that are in that church. [In the old English translatons, one does not need to know the Greek or the Hebrew to know this.]

 

[Lodic]

But neither you nor anyone else typically knows when they are going to die. So what you are saying is no one really knows for sure, since no one typically knows when they will die.

No. What Jesus said in those seven letters He said to the angel/messenger/pastor of each of the seven churches. When in a letter Jesus uses "you" [not "thee" or "thou"] He is then addressing them that are in that church. [In the old English translatons, one does not need to know the Greek or the Hebrew to know this.]

While He is speaking directly to the angel / messenger of each of the 7 churches, it's a message to their churches.

No, I'm not saying that no one really knows for sure since we don't usually know when we are going to die. That would be too much like a "works-based" salvation, which we both know is not Biblical. If you are a follower of Christ when you die, you are most certainly going to spend eternity with Him. Those who have rejected Him are probably not concerned with their eternity, as they may not even believe in Heaven or Hell.

 

[Yeshua1]

Each of us come to Christ with the hope that we will spend eternity with Him. I am convinced that if I died right now, I would go straight to Heaven. I also believe Christians who become apostate lose their hope of Heaven unless they turn to Christ again.
While I'm no expert in languages, I believe that "thee" and "thou" can have both singular and plural meanings, just as "you" does in English. While I can see the logic in your interpretation, I believe Jesus is telling the church in Ephesus that they may lose their place.

The basic question would be what would a real Christian have to do to get lost again then? Romans 8 seems to many of us to be very clear that there is nothing that can keep God from bring homer to glory all of His own, but also that we determine in some ways how we arrive, as in eternal rewards/loss, or if brought home early due to God deciding enough was enough!

 

[Lodic]

The basic question would be what would a real Christian have to do to get lost again then? Romans 8 seems to many of us to be very clear that there is nothing that can keep God from bring homer to glory all of His own, but also that we determine in some ways how we arrive, as in eternal rewards/loss, or if brought home early due to God deciding enough was enough!

As I understand it, if a real Christian completely rejected Christ, he has become apostate. Remember that Paul admonishes us to "finish the race" (1 Cor. 9:24-27). This means there are those who do not finish the race they have begun. In 2 Peter 2:20-22, the Apostle speaks of the danger of becoming entangled in the world. He says "it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment." You can't depart from the faith unless you had faith to begin with.

 

[Yeshua1]

As I understand it, if a real Christian completely rejected Christ, he has become apostate. Remember that Paul admonishes us to "finish the race" (1 Cor. 9:24-27). This means there are those who do not finish the race they have begun. In 2 Peter 2:20-22, the Apostle speaks of the danger of becoming entangled in the world. He says "it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment." You can't depart from the faith unless you had faith to begin with.

Those who in the end turned away though were never saved, as the pig returned back to the mud! Sow to its own vomit!