Oh Pagan Tree

[Jim1999]

The founder of the Salvation Army was criticized for collecting monies in the local pubs. In response he said, "I will have their money. The devil has had it long enough."

Well, the pagans had the tree long enough and Luther was one who decided it was better serving the Lord.

By the way, another idol which robs more time than the telly is sports!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Palatka51]

See above; plus it was not merely an assertion, but also an accusation - at those BB members like me who have a Christmas tree - that, as I said to you, is utterly devoid of merit and which should be retracted.

Wow, this tree thing has really touched a nerve. Isn't that very interesting?! Now that we have pointed out everyone's personal idols wouldn't it behoove all of us to do what even the New Testament commands and put away idolatry? Somehow I don't believe there will be one of us willing to be the first. As I said before, I have a tree. I have only spoken on this issue because I felt that a member of BB was being mocked for his convictions.

 

[annsni]

Wow, this tree thing has really touched a nerve. Isn't that very interesting?! Now that we have pointed out everyone's personal idols wouldn't it behoove all of us to do what even the New Testament commands and put away idolatry? Somehow I don't believe there will be one of us willing to be the first. As I said before, I have a tree. I have only spoken on this issue because I felt that a member of BB was being mocked for his convictions.

I don't understand. Who are you accusing of being idolatrous?

 

[trustitl]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. I go off for supper and leave you alone for an hour and look wot a mess I have found.

'Tis the season to be jolly,,,,,,,,,,,,

Cheers,

Jim

Watch out. You might be accused on donning gay apparel.

 

[trustitl]

I don't usually side with tree huggers, but on this one I have to say that God is more pleased with someone decorating a tree in celebration of Christs birth than a Grinch worried about what some pagan may have done 500 years ago.

 

[trustitl]

By the way, I haven't had a tree in years, but this is making me think about getting one so my kids don't get holier than thou and judgemental about what their brothers and sisters in Christ are doing. Or, more likely, that I would make them into a weaker brother who sees this as some evil object.

 

[tinytim]

Good, then post them. Without the ungodly attitude and mockery.
"Who art thou that judgest thy brother?"

Point taken... But don't judge me to be a "idol worshipper" because we have a Christmas tree.. Fair enough?

It says plenty of paganism. If a "Christian" holiday has its roots in paganism, then is it right? Is it right to observe pagan rituals? Instead of ungodly mockery use the Word of God to refute the essence of the post.

Yes.. it is OK to redeem something from paganism. God redeemed us.. see Jim's post a few posts back about the Salvation army.
And stating an opinion is not mockery

And we all have an obligation to state the truth in love showing grace to others. That is also one of the rules of the BB, which you agreed to when you signed up here. It is a privilege to post here, not your right to say anything you want about whoever you want.

Very subjective there.. I never called him stupid.. just his allegations that those of us with Christmas trees are idol worshippers, which is against the rules as well.

No one is forcing your hand to type or write anything. If you can't control your tongue or whatever your fingers type, then don't say anything at all.

Very wise advice.

The Scriptures say: Every idle word a man shall give account of.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned (judged).

Judging someone's salvation based on them having a Christmas tree is very idle words.. I agree.

I reread the OP and saw nothing that suggested such. So I will count that as a false allegation until proven otherwise.

This one does have me confused.. This past summer antiaging had a whole thread devoted to his theory about how the Roman Catholic Church is using TVs to spy on people in the world...
But now that thread seems to have disappeared. Who is able to make threads disappear around here?

It is strange that when I am accused of making a false allegation, the thread to prove it just disappears into thin air.
Can someone help me find it.. maybe I am looking in the wrong places...

Someone help me before someone calls me a Liar!
I remember ABCGrad, Bitsy, Rbell, and others.. .even Pal was on there talking about Ward Cleaver, and tin foil, and how Antiaging's ideas were ludicrous...

And to most Hindus it symbolizes a god, and the gifts under it symbolize sacrifices put there by the one putting them there.

And crosses to the Romans stood for death... and criminals...
Things change meaning...

But why give offense to thy brother?
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

AMEN... but it is up to the individual. Remember, Soul liberty.

You can do what you want. But don't condemn others for having Godly convictions for good reasons.

Please tell Anti the same.. I have good reasons to put up a Christmas tree, like I said earlier, it stands to me for the eternal life Jesus gave.
It also stands for the love my family has for each other.. one of the first ornaments that goes on the tree is a bow that was in our wedding... 19 yrs ago.. we put it up on our anniversary every year, and as a tradition that means a lot to my family, I HAVE GOOD REASONS FOR MY CONVICTIONS. But this thread is devoted to calling those of us that have trees baal worshippers...

People half way around this world make mockery at the Americans and their silly traditions when they hear about them. They know that "Trees" have nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

We should teach them then... ever been in a service where the church decorates a Chrismon tree? Very spiritual.

The same with Easter. They laughed when I told them about a rabbit that laid eggs. They immediately said that it must come from a fertility goddess and connected the American celebration of Easter with a pagan fertility goddess. Do you see what conclusions peoples of other nations draw without even coming to America? You offend by your very actions. The things that you do have nothing to do with the birth of Christ, and yet hypocritically you say by doing so you are celebrating the birth of Christ. What hypocrisy!

So now you call me a hypocrite.. Thanks.

I am going to try to stay away from this thread.

But I don't appreciate you or antiaging calling Christians with Christmas trees, hypocrites, and baal worshippers...

 

[tinytim]

After further consideration...

I apologize to DHK and Antiaging for remarks that may be taken as making fun of someone's convictions.

I am sorry.
Please forgive me.

Now I will try to stay away...

But I would like to know what happened to that missing thread.. Am I the only one that remembers it?

 

[DHK]

So now you call me a hypocrite.. Thanks.

I am going to try to stay away from this thread.

But I don't appreciate you or antiaging calling Christians with Christmas trees, hypocrites, and baal worshippers...

No, I didn't call you a hypocrite, or didn't mean to. If you look at the post you were responding to I mentioned the nation of America twice. The "you" was not personal, but generic, referring to Americans (and Canadians) in general. It was not a personal attack. I am sorry if you took it that way.

 

[tinytim]

That's OK, DHK... I see it now.

I am sorry for being heated.. .
I guess I have had a bad day!

 

[rbell]

This one does have me confused.. This past summer antiaging had a whole thread devoted to his theory about how the Roman Catholic Church is using TVs to spy on people in the world...
But now that thread seems to have disappeared. Who is able to make threads disappear around here?

Maybe one of the mods' TV's told them to delete it.

 

[DHK]

That's OK, DHK... I see it now.

I am sorry for being heated.. .
I guess I have had a bad day!

No problem.
Here is the way I see it.
The matter of having a Christmas tree; celebrating Christmas, etc., is a matter of soul liberty for each and every believer. The principles we need to go by are found in Romans 14.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
--If I am not fully persuaded in my own mind that I am doing the right thing then I won't do it. As for me, I am not fully persuaded that putting up a Christmas tree is the right thing to do. Therefore I, in good conscience, could never do it. You (others) may be different. As long as your are fully persuaded that you are doing the right thing (or are not doing the wrong thing) then, that decision is up to you. It is a matter of soul liberty. We are not to judge each other in these matters.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
--This is the other principle that Paul sets forth. The verse is not speaking of salvation, and the word "damned" means "condemned" as one's conscience condemns oneself. Guilt condemns. Thus Paul says: "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." If I cannot put up a tree or celebrate Christmas in faith (in confidence in the Lord that I am doing right), then it is sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Someone once put it very simply: "If in doubt, don't."
That basically sums it up.
Again, it is a matter of soul liberty. Each person needs to study the issue out on their own, come to their own conclusion, and then avoid judging their brother for the decision he has made.
Having that basic understanding there is still nothing wrong in discussing the subject.

 

[Jim1999]

I guess there could be another thought as well. All my years in ministry, I never had a Christmas tree...a personal thing. Some people said, however, that I didn't celebrate Christmas as a minister. They couldn't grasp my reasons. Did I become a stumbling block to those people,,,,,,,,as a minister?

The tree is amoral in itself.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[ray Marshall]

Jeremiah 10 speaks not of a Christmas tree because Christmas trees aren't carved. Instead it sounds like it's speaking of an idol similar to a totem pole.

I've thumbed throught the Bible and I can't find any mention of an axe used to carve a tree.

I use the King James 1611 edition and I will quote JEREMIAH 10'verse 3.
"For the custon of the people are vain:for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe."
It doesn't explain how they design the tree.
Could you quote the same verse if you are using a different version of a Bible.
This Bible, the 1611 leaves no definite type of tree, or how it is carved.
Thank you

All that the 1611 say's that the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. I don't won't to read something in to it, but on the other hand I don't won't to enlarge some other meaning into it. One would be just as bad as the other.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Matt Black,

"Your points would have merit if any of us bowed down to and worshipped the baubles on our trees."

Baubles??? What are Baubles???

Are you over there across the pond a different sect of pagans than us? :wavey:

Would it maybe be..... "ornaments"? :thumbs:



As for me...I dont think I am a full blown pagan, like Annsi.

I think I am a partial pagan.

My only Christmas thing is a lamp thing a sister from church made for me about 3 years ago. Its a bowl filled with red, blue, yellow and green marbles in it. Along with that it has that good smelling stuff in it. Po-per-reee. (I think)

And its got a light at the bottom of it. I plug it in, it lights up real pretty and puts the po-per-ree scent in the air.

Thats it. It lookes "christmasy" and I think of her kindness whenever I look at it. The only other thing I do is give friends hand delivered Christmas cards. I dont send them in the mail, I deliver them all personally, with a box of candy. (except for the few that live far away. I send those)

Wait.

I read somewhere that pagans give other pagans gifts sometimes, so......I guess I AM A FULL PAGAN after all! :laugh:

Yippeeee!


:godisgood:

 

[antiaging]

Got any evidence to back up your assertions, Antiaging?

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/sect31.htm
Online book, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop is one.
Scroll down to the babylonian forms of paganism and its influence on the pagan religion of Rome.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Antiaging...

From your link...

"Therefore, the 25th of December, the day that was observed at Rome as the day when the victorious god reappeared on earth, was held at the Natalis invicti solis, "The birth-day of the unconquered Sun." Now the Yule Log is the dead stock of Nimrod, deified as the sun-god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas-tree is Nimrod redivivus--the slain god come to life again. In the light reflected by the above statement on customs that still linger among us, the origin of which has been lost in the midst of hoar antiquity, let the reader look at the singular practice still kept up in the South on Christmas-eve, of kissing under the mistletoe bough. That mistletoe bough in the Druidic superstition, which, as we have seen, was derived from Babylon, was a representation of the Messiah, "The man the branch." The mistletoe was regarded as a divine branch *--a branch that came from heaven, and grew upon a tree that sprung out of the earth. "

So what?

Most people here are aware that the Dec 25 date is no where near when Christ was born and most all of us know about that pagan festivals concerning the Dec 25 date.

I say again...SO WHAT???

It doesnt make an ounce of differance.

(((WE ARENT PAGANS))), and we do not worship who the pagans worship.

We are (((CHRISTIANS!))) :wavey:

We are not worshipping who the pagans worshipped, we are worshipping the true God (Father Son and Holy Spirit), and in particular, acknowledging the fact that Christ was born one day long ago into this earthly existance, to redeem us.

Why is that so difficult for those of your persuasion?

We are expected to be worshipful towards God every day of our lives, and that includes Dec 25.

What do you do...refuse to worship God from 12 midnight Dec 24 to 12 midnight Dec 25th so as to not transgress? :tonofbricks:


:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

Wow, this tree thing has really touched a nerve. Isn't that very interesting?! Now that we have pointed out everyone's personal idols wouldn't it behoove all of us to do what even the New Testament commands and put away idolatry? Somehow I don't believe there will be one of us willing to be the first. As I said before, I have a tree. I have only spoken on this issue because I felt that a member of BB was being mocked for his convictions.

So when did you last see me offer worship to my Christmas tree? Think carefully before you repeat such careless accusations of idolatry...

Plus what Alive in Christ said above re Antiaging's link

 

[Matt Black]

Watch out. You might be accused on donning gay apparel.

Aye, and it's but a small step from that to singing "Hey, nonnie nonnie", and then I really will be worried!

 

[Matt Black]

Matt Black,



Baubles??? What are Baubles???

Are you over there across the pond a different sect of pagans than us? :wavey:

Would it maybe be..... "ornaments"? :thumbs:

As with theology, so with language generally: Winston had it right when he spoke of two nations (or should that now be pagan cults?) divided by a common language. 'Baubles' are those shiny (usually gold or silver) thin glass spheres which one suspends from the branches. Other items which may also be suspended include mini-Santas (don't forget that 'Santa' is an anagram of 'Satan' , which is why we Pure Ones in the UK refer to him as 'Father Christmas' - who is obviously another pre-Christian pagan deity) like the one massacred by the cat the other night, mini-stockings, mini-present boxes, chocolates, fir cones, tinsel and red ribbons. Collectively these are known here not by the appellation 'ornaments' but 'decorations'. In this way we better preserve the authenticity of our paganism as opposed to the debased deviationist version in North America.